128 replies to this topic

[Jaynis]

Stavinsky Elyas, on 22 December 2012 - 07:39 AM, said:

Then tell me why those streak cat and other streak users end up often in the top of the damage
dealer of a game, and often with the highest number of kills (or assist) in the same games ?

http://imgur.com/a/vPN9d EDIT: Re-did the album and fixed a bugged picture.

Tell me why in that album right there, why my C4 with 4 SRM6s outclassed in damage everytime? Hell that album would be ten times more pictures if I screenshotted every single one of my matches.

Not once did I use Streaks, not once in any of those battles did Streaks pose a threat in the very least. Even from Ravens. Cicada's with AC/2s are deadlier than a Raven with Streaks.

I do admit a Raven with streaks probably does hurt other Light Mechs, but that single situation alone doesn't make them overpowered.

Edited by 7thD3adlyS1n, 22 December 2012 - 08:39 AM.

[ICEFANG13]

Streaks are the name of the game on light on light, ECM is the real problem on 3L to non 3L/2D fights, where one side cannot use their streaks, but the 3L/2D can with no detriment. Streaks are not OP on any light mech alone, even the 2D with 3 of them is frail enough not to make a significant difference, but on light on light, if you lose your streaks, and he doesn't, just the firepower you lose alone is enough to lose usually.

[KinLuu]

Since ECM was released, I was only killed by SSRMs once. And that was because I puged and my team decided to bring no additional ECMs.

If you are having problems with SSRMs, maybe you should buy a viable mech?

[soapyfrog]

Codejack, on 22 December 2012 - 05:47 AM, said:

In other words, you want them removed from the game entirely. Got it.

I want what I said I want, a nerf so that they are not the simple obvious choice. In the light mech class, the SSRM2 is the best weapon you can mount by a long shot. If they ever allow custom matches in this game, I will gladly put my money where my mouth is an pilot my Commando 2D against any non-SSRM2 armed light mech you choose to pilot. I predict, conservatively, a 90% win rate for me. A weapon that holds that kind of supremacy is in need of a nerf.

Codejack, on 22 December 2012 - 05:47 AM, said:

WHAT?! How is ECM not a counter to streaks?! SSRMs won't fire without a lock, ECM prevents that above 200m and below 180m. Unless you're fighting an Atlas, you can't keep them in that window.

In a cooperative environment you can easily nullify ECM with your own ECM. In random matches ECM can counter streaks if you are lucky enough to be on the side with competant (or any!) ECM coverage.

Codejack, on 22 December 2012 - 05:47 AM, said:

Me.

You are constantly lambasting others who don't agree with you for trying to protect what you think are broken mechanics/weapons. I think you have now exposed your own bias. That said, you yourself proposed effective nerfs to streaks earlier in this thread so I'll just assume you are being bombastic here.

Codejack, on 22 December 2012 - 05:47 AM, said:

And I will have exactly the same problem fighting them that I have had fighting streakcats today and in the past: None whatsoever.

I am not that concerned with streakcats I do not think they are all that powerful except for slaughtering unwary light mechs and slower mediums... though it is a little silly that a loadout that would be utterly goofy and useless in tabletop works as well as it does in MWO.

Codejack, on 22 December 2012 - 05:47 AM, said:

As for SSRM4s and 6s, you guys REALLY don't get it: Nobody will boat those. There is no point. Even if the game is fixed so streaks can be used by non-ECM mechs, I wouldn't pack more than 2 or 3 (all you need to fend off lights), which, incidentally, is how many the Atlas-D-DC can loadout.

I think you are wrong. A weapon that delivers it's full damage without the need to aim is vastly more powerful than a weapon you need to aim to receive it's full potential.

Codejack, on 22 December 2012 - 05:47 AM, said:

Now, if you want a complaint, how about Artemis increasing SRM weight more than adding Streak capability does, and obviously doing less?

Well this is not strictly true, streak adds 50% to the weight of the launcher, Artemis adds 1 ton. But if you want to chalk that up as another reason streaks need to be nerfed that is fine with me.

Why you defend streaks so passionately when they are so far out of line with their tabletop performance, and then complain about how ECM is too powerful compared to tabletop is really beyond me. It is pure cognitive dissonance.

[soapyfrog]

ICEFANG13, on 22 December 2012 - 08:30 AM, said:

Streaks are the name of the game on light on light, ECM is the real problem on 3L to non 3L/2D fights, where one side cannot use their streaks, but the 3L/2D can with no detriment. Streaks are not OP on any light mech alone, even the 2D with 3 of them is frail enough not to make a significant difference, but on light on light, if you lose your streaks, and he doesn't, just the firepower you lose alone is enough to lose usually.

I think you are wrong on this score. If ECM were removed from the game, how would you feel about piloting a light mech that did not have at least 2xSSRM2? Do you think a 6xMLAS Jenner can reasonably beat a 4xMLAS, 2xSSRM2 Jenner?

[Flapdrol]

ICEFANG13, on 22 December 2012 - 08:30 AM, said:

Streaks are the name of the game on light on light, ECM is the real problem on 3L to non 3L/2D fights, where one side cannot use their streaks, but the 3L/2D can with no detriment. Streaks are not OP on any light mech alone, even the 2D with 3 of them is frail enough not to make a significant difference, but on light on light, if you lose your streaks, and he doesn't, just the firepower you lose alone is enough to lose usually.

The way streaks dominate light vs light is kind of stupid, pulse lasers should be just as good a choice imo.

If 2 commando 2D's with streaks go head to head the fight is over in seconds, try to combat the commando with lasers and you'll be busy for ages.

There's plenty of room to nerf streaks and still keep them the best weapon agianst lights.

[SpiralRazor]

Stavinsky Elyas, on 21 December 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

Is there any news about the nerf that is supposed to happen on the Streak boats ? As actually those are starting to ruin the game. Hard to play when you end up against a pug that has 3 stalkers with 5x ssrm2 each and 2 catapult with 6x ssrm2 each and you don't have any ECM in the team. Or even worse some "4 man teams" with a 3x ssrm2 ECM commando scouting for a team of 1 streak cata (6 ssrm2) and 2 Streak Stalker (2x 5xssrm2) That's get ridiculous. Where LRM are 'strong' in a way, but have huge weakness (the 200m minimal range, and ECM preventing the lock), the Streak boats have almost no troubles, especially if they are used in a Streak boats team with ECM/ECCM users. So I really hope something is done fast, as I don't think every player using those "streak srm" boats are Ultra Elite Clan Mech with some 0/0 gunnery/pilot skills that could explain how they could even 'think' about interlocking 3+ streak srm missiles.

Steak SRMS are completely neutered with ECM......you smoke up a lot?

[Zynk]

Kdogg788, on 21 December 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

Streak cats and Stalkers aren't the issue, it's streak lights with ECM who can streak without worrying abut getting streaked back in many cases. This is one reason besides hit detection and lack of collisions that makes Ravens ridiculous right now.

-k

Your wrong I use streaks but against other ECM I use TAG.

[One Medic Army]

Zynk, on 22 December 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

Your wrong I use streaks but against other ECM I use TAG.

Tag only works if you're outside the 180m bubble, just saying.
If they let it work inside said bubble for the mech carrying the TAG and streaks, then ECM+SSRM wouldn't be such a deciding factor in light on light fights, it'd just be SSRM vs no SSRM.
Nerf em both.

Edited by One Medic Army, 22 December 2012 - 12:49 PM.

[jakucha]

Do ssrms still hit the same spot or do their missiles spread out like they're supposed to?

[Stavinsky Elyas]

SpiralRazor, on 22 December 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

Steak SRMS are completely neutered with ECM......you smoke up a lot?

No need to be "insulting". Or we are not playing the same game.
SSRM are partially neutered by ECM, but if you play in team, or you are
playing an ECM light having 3 SSRM2 you don't have real trouble
with ECM, as you can counter in 1vs1.

The Streak boats that are causing troubles are not the lonely ones who
pugs around, it's the team who boat-abuse-streak config, as they come with
1-2 ecm equiped mech, and 1-2 Streak boat.

The streak are not doing that many damage taken 1 at a time, but they are
overpowered because you can boat them up without having to make any sacrifice
to the fitting of your mech. You can have your full load of SSRM, combined with
your maximum armor, the best engine (or XL engine) you can have, and enough
ammo to hold a siege with no need to worry about the Heat build up.

So all in all, it's a weapon that has NO real weakness, except if you meet an ECM
user while you are alone. But how many time in a 4 man squad are the Streak-boats alone ?
Or how often in pugs with people "knowing how to play" do you think Streak boats
are alone ? Almost never.

jakucha, on 22 December 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

Do ssrms still hit the same spot or do their missiles spread out like they're supposed to?

The last modification of the 'hit' zone make it that most of the missiles will hit "dead" center
from the place you shoot from if the target is immobile or slow moving.
Shooting from behind someone or frontaly will then give you an almost 70% center torso
hit, with 30% side torso getting hit.

For fast moving target, the hit area is supposed to spread to the legs and arms, if the
target is fast enough. But from what i have seen, with the situation of "lag", you end up
often with SSRM being shoot from front or side, and hitting your central back torso.

So well used, with a fast enough mecha, or a boat with support, you will chew right through
any armor in 1-2 salvo, and then finish the job. Especially when you add the fact
that some Team have their light getting in the legs of the heaviers mech to make them
lag or prevent them from moving around.



*********************

Just as a matter of fact the ECM have "slowed" the Streak-SRM slaughters around,
but well used it's still among the strongest build you can come with in 2-4 mens squads.
Because once you acquire the lock, you have close to 100% of your salvoes hitting the target.
And combined with Target focusing, and the team using their ECM / TAG
to you don't suffer from ECM at all.

Having constant damage is not something you can guarantee with any of the others
weapons in the game as the lag and others factors can prevent you from even hitting
your target even while being dead centered on it, or even tracking it some.
And that is a Fact.

[soapyfrog]

Stavinsky is essentially correct in his analysis. Without the streaks an ECM light is just a light mech with 1.5 tons less of weapons.

[Awesome Master]

If streaks are so OP why don't they nerf it so it has double heat and 80 ammo per ton instead of 100.

[ICEFANG13]

I'd like a double nerf (ECM and SSRMs), but its hard to tell how powerful other weapons will be when the net code is fixed, if you look at the damage to ton and DPS of SSRMs, they aren't extremely impressive (very viable). It really may not need a nerf.

[soapyfrog]

ICEFANG13, on 22 December 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

I'd like a double nerf (ECM and SSRMs), but its hard to tell how powerful other weapons will be when the net code is fixed, if you look at the damage to ton and DPS of SSRMs, they aren't extremely impressive (very viable). It really may not need a nerf.

In the context of light mechs the fact that they always hit completely makes up for their relatively poor damage... Other weapons need to be aimed and can miss or do only partial damage for all kinds of reasons.

Also they are trivial to use compared to direct fire weapons, negating a large amount of pilot skill.

[ICEFANG13]

I don't quite understand the second thing you said, I agree that direct weapons are stronger if you can hit with them, but then it seems you think it removes a lot of skill?

[Codejack]

Stavinsky Elyas, on 22 December 2012 - 07:39 AM, said:

When you pick the 6xSRM6 you have to be really close (under 180m)
and you can't hope to have the whole volley hit at that range, to hit with full volley
you have to get even closer and use some Artemis to make sure to deliver a good punch.

/sigh

Would you please refrain from commenting on issues that you obviously know nothing about? The SRM36 Splatapult will 2 shot an Atlas at 270m.

Stavinsky Elyas, on 22 December 2012 - 07:39 AM, said:

So for your supposedly 90 damage, you can hope for 60-70 damage

Is that all? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! 60 damage is a MONSTROUS hit, to anything. And with Artemis, no, you're going to get 80+ most of the time. You hit a Commando with that and they just explode; you get 3 or 4 component destruction messages and the kill message all in a row.

So, if you get lucky, the lights drop in 1 hit; 6xSSRM2 took 3-4 volleys to take out a decent Commando pilot, and I have personally witnessed a Jenner survive 6.

Stavinsky Elyas, on 22 December 2012 - 07:39 AM, said:

And we don't even speak about the LRM 10 that are not in the situation, as they
have a huge weakness with the 180-200 m minimal range to have their warhead
activated. That could change if the dev would add the "hot loaded" options to
a LRM rack.

OK, so now you want to wildly overpower a different weapon; WTF man?! And you are even just assuming the ECM against the LRMs, as if it didn't counter streaks entirely! Here, I'll say it back to you: "Get your own ECM L2PNOOB!"

If you think streaks are bad, clan LRMs (which is what you are talking about) are going to have people in here setting themselves on fire in protest.

Stavinsky Elyas, on 22 December 2012 - 07:39 AM, said:

Then tell me why those streak cat and other streak users end up often in the top of the damage
dealer of a game, and often with the highest number of kills (or assist) in the same games ?

....because people who are good at building mechs are also often good at playing?

The most damage I ever got in a streakcat was just over 800; I've broken 1000 in a K2 Cat (both the 2xAC/20 and 2xGauss variants), the SRM36 Splatapult, the dakka-dakka Cataphract, and my Atlas-D-DC (3xSSRM2, 2xUAC/5, 2xERLLAS), and I've hit 800 on a Commando and a Cicada.

There's an old saying: "The thing all of your failed relationships have in common is you."

[Codejack]

soapyfrog, on 22 December 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

Why you defend streaks so passionately when they are so far out of line with their tabletop performance, and then complain about how ECM is too powerful compared to tabletop is really beyond me. It is pure cognitive dissonance.

What are you talking about? I was fine with any of a number of suggested changes to SSRMs: Lower smoke and shake; discourage chain-firing (although the problem with letting AMS hit them is that it affects fewer SSRMs more, encouraging boating....); have ECM either extend lock-on time or force them to dumb-fire (although strictly speaking this should be an Angel ECM feature). Whatever. I've never had a problem with streakcats; in my light mechs I avoided them and in my heavy mechs they were meat.

As for ECM, I AM ABSOLUTELY ABUSING THE HOLY @#!$ing s#!& OUT OF IT! It is just stupid overpowered. I'm sorry, but when my Commando crests a hill, and the 2 enemy medium mechs coming the other way turn around and start running for help, there is something wrong!

What's even worse is that they don't always make it.

I am absolutely fine with creative license in changing how things work in order to balance things out for the transition from table-top to single-player to multi-player; that being said, "balance" should be a light touch. Yes, streaks and LRMs and several other things are slightly different; ECM is WILDLY more powerful than its TT counterpart.

We are oscillating wildly back and forth, from LRMs being rather unimpressive, to Artemis letting them shoot you at the bottom of a well, to Artemis being pretty much pointless, to streaks being (apparently) so annoying that people couldn't stand to shoot back (?), to ECM relegating them to 4 chassis' and friends of same...

Two points keep coming up:

1) Any mech that can't either kill or outrun a streakcat is just a piece of crap, and

2) ECM didn't fix the streak "problem," it just limited who can use them.

Edited by Codejack, 22 December 2012 - 06:00 PM.

[SpiralRazor]

Stavinsky Elyas, on 22 December 2012 - 07:39 AM, said:

Ok, as you obviously don't take into account a couple of things 6x SSRM2 that shoot at 270m = 12 missiles that HIT except if the target can luckily hide fast enough that mean 30 automatic damage Making a dps of 8.57. When you pick the 6xSRM6 you have to be really close (under 180m) and you can't hope to have the whole volley hit at that range, to hit with full volley you have to get even closer and use some Artemis to make sure to deliver a good punch. So for your supposedly 90 damage, you can hope for 60-70 damage if you are close enough and by the time you reach the close 'range' needed, you have already been hit 3-4 times and hope that your target is not in a 'lag shield'. It make a lot of "if ... then..." And we don't even speak about the LRM 10 that are not in the situation, as they have a huge weakness with the 180-200 m minimal range to have their warhead activated. That could change if the dev would add the "hot loaded" options to a LRM rack. Then tell me why those streak cat and other streak users end up often in the top of the damage dealer of a game, and often with the highest number of kills (or assist) in the same games ?

Uh..they dont? Ever? ....and honestly that damage number is crap..you can do a ton of damage by spraying it around all over someones armor and not get kills, yet that one guy in a Dual Gauss set up can be much more devastating by killing mech after mech.

Ive gone 1000 damage and 0/6...reason? Missiles...

[soapyfrog]

Codejack, on 22 December 2012 - 05:59 PM, said:

As for ECM, I AM ABSOLUTELY ABUSING THE HOLY @#!$ing s#!& OUT OF IT! It is just stupid overpowered. I'm sorry, but when my Commando crests a hill, and the 2 enemy medium mechs coming the other way turn around and start running for help, there is something wrong!

What feature of ECM scares them so much?