128 replies to this topic

[IceSerpent]

Stavinsky Elyas, on 21 December 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

Every mech for the Table top need to have some long range weapons, some medium and short range fire power.

[snip]

And I clearly know what I'm speaking about

Don't know about the rest of you, but this made me giggle like a schoolgirl.

[Codejack]

IceSerpent, on 21 December 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

Don't know about the rest of you, but this made me giggle like a schoolgirl.

Heh, yea, we never boated in TT

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Codejack, on 21 December 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

Heh, yea, we never boated in TT

yeah my fave mechs werent


or

[Stavinsky Elyas]

Omni Tek, on 21 December 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

now my TT knowledge is limited at best but if I remember corectly in TT streak missles wouldn't fire unless all the missles where locked yes? in that case shouldnt it take longer for multiple streak launchers to gain a lock, and streaks need to lose lock easier it is waaaay to easy to keep targets lit while moving at 120odd kph

In the table top game the Streak make sure that you don't fire the missile if you don't have a lock.
But every Streak you have on your mecha must be rolled.

If you want to fire "all of them" with the same lock, it's called interlocking (exactly the way
it work in game actually). And when you interlock SSRM in the table top you add
+1 to the difficulty to get a lock for every SSRM you add after the first.

So for exemple, a Streak cat with 6 SSRM2 would need a +5 difficulty to manage such a lock.

Knowing you have to beat the value with 2 D6 dices, and knowing a "regular" inner sphere
pilot has a gunnery of 4, you end up starting the locking with some a base value of
4+ 5 = 9.

To that value of 9, you have to add the gunner mech movement value (+1 if walking,
+2 if running, +3 if jumping), the range (+0 short, +2 medium, +4 long), and the
number of Hexagon the target has moved in the turn, with a value from +0 to +5 and more.
And that is not even counting the terrain modifier and such.

So to put it 'simply', a regular inner sphere pilot who want to have an interlocked lock on
another mech at long range with 6 SSRM can't do it because
you have 4 as base + 5 for intelocking +4 for long range. That make 13, and you can't beat
13 with 2 D6.

To manage such a lock you have to be an Elite Clan pilot, who has a base gunnery of 2
that make the shoot from an immobile Catapult to an immobile target having
2+5 +4 = 11 , and to achieve 11 or 12 with 2 D6, you have a 8% chance of doing it
(statistically). And that is on purely immobile targets that are standing at 240m to 270m.

I let you imagine a moving target that reach 100+km/h (meaning minimal +4)
while your own mech is running (+2)

Codejack, on 21 December 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

As I have said many, many times before: Any mech that cannot either kill or outrun a streakcat is poorly built. I kill them all the time in my K2 Catapult (2xAC/20, 2xMLAS), and for that matter, the SRM36 splatapult is much better at killing heavy/assault mechs, including the streakcat, but I knew to avoid them in my Jenner and Cicada (pre-ECM).

Or, why does "skill" always seem to mean "needing 2 or 3 big mechs to kill 1 little mech"?

Actually I have a kill ratio of 2 to 1 in my favor, more won game than lost one, and often I'm among
the decisive part of the game, be it in my lights, heavy or assault.

I don't mind taking against a Streak boat with my Atlas, as it is fitted with an ECM, and
full elited. I have what it need to hit them from far, and even if they come close, I will hurt
them bad if not killing them.

But still, the streak are not "working as intended" as they offer an unbalanced advantage in
matter of "heat control", "constant damage", "light weight", that let a mech have them installed
and still have plenty of other space for something else.

Where the others mechs have to find a balance between the amount of armor,
firepower, speed, ammo, the "streak boat" only has to worry to have some ECM friend
close by.

The problem is that actually the streak are hitting the center torso almost constantly on a immobile to slow target.
If you are 'fast' enough the damage start to spread on the left and right torsos. And on ultra mobile target
you have a chance to hit the legs and arms too.

The problem is that on the Table top the SSRM is not guarantying a "torso hit". When you manage to achieve
a lock on, you roll the dice over the "whole mech" localisation table. Not some "center torso" area.

And on the Table top, AMS are engaging all kind of missile salvos, both Long Range and Short range.
And it's not the case with the Streak or Short range missile.

But I don't mind SRM boats, as even if they are pretty strong hitting, they have weakness and they
have make choice between speed, amount of ammo and heat control. Where it's not something
you have to worry about when it come to Streak SRM boats. And if the dev put the tripping back
into game, then those SRM boats will have to worry about being dropped to the ground as
they have to come close to make sure to have their whole volleys making some strong hit.
And here again the Streak boat has not that weakness, as he can stay around 200m-250m
and be sure that his whole volley is going to hit again and again.

Actually we see some troubles with Streak SRM 2 boats, but imagine when the Clan
or extended Inner Sphere SSRM4 and SSRM 6 are going to be added.

Edited by Stavinsky Elyas, 21 December 2012 - 07:11 PM.

[ICEFANG13]

SSRMs could use a nerf (pre-ECM), I'd love it myself, however, they are far from skill-less weapons and they are only amazing on lights.

SSRMs weigh 1.5 tons and take up 1 slot, they generate low heat, and have lower DPS and fair single shot damage. They cannot be fired without a lock-on, and have a max range of 270. While using Streaks, you have to face your enemy (or they will easily out DPS you while you lock on and off), making torso twisting impossible.

See that? SSRMs require skills, and I just defended them, now look at ECM.

ECM weighs 1.5 tons, and take up 2 slots, they generate no heat and require no modifications to your play style what so ever, they limit the ability to lock-on, increase the time it takes to get detailed info, make LRMs and SSRMs not lock on while in range (and take longer otherwise), units in the bubble cannot see other teammates, and their radar is rendered pretty useless. Units in the bubble cannot sent info back to teammates (help me LRM this dude!). The only effective counter is itself. TAG can be used to eliminate some of the advantages of ECM (while between 750-180) if you use a energy hardpoint, and keep it on target.

Now which one looks skill-less and which one looks OP?

[Codejack]

Stavinsky Elyas, on 21 December 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

I don't mind taking against a Streak boat with my Atlas, as it is fitted with an ECM, andfull elited. I have what it need to hit them from far, and even if they come close, I will hurtthem bad if not killing them.

But still, the streak are not "working as intended" as they offer an unbalanced advantage in matter of "heat control", "constant damage", "light weight", that let a mech have them installedand still have plenty of other space for something else.

But if they're boating, they don't have the slots for anything else; even a stalker can only carry so many DHS.

Stavinsky Elyas, on 21 December 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

The problem is that actually the streak are hitting the center torso almost constantly on a immobile to slow target.

OK, again, a slow target should be chewing the streakcat up; the immobile target should be killed by anything that happens by. Even a heavy mech can torso twist enough while weapons cooldown to spread the damage over its arms.

Edited by Codejack, 21 December 2012 - 07:06 PM.

[One Medic Army]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 21 December 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

lol

I'll clarify that for you:
It's not the damage, it's the auto-aim damage for little to no cost.
It's like saying I have no issue with the AC/20 dealing 4x the damage of a medium laser, I have no issues because equipping one requires sacrifices.

[Murdalizer]

One Medic Army, on 21 December 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

I never had an issue with the damage.
I had an issue with the low weight/heat/ammo usage combined with the decent damage and the control impairing effects on the enemy mech.
I'd gladly take on any streak-cat who alpha fired against my atlas, but the ripple-fire ones covered my cockpit in black paint and I had to aim at them purely using HUD, which is certainly requiring more skill on my part than theirs.

Thats what i dont get....the fix to the Streakcat and now Streakstalker is HEAT.....instead of just adding up the heat while you chainfire those badboys, you put in a multiplyer, so 2+2+2 etc, becomes 2+2*2...making the heat spike and hard to control.

thats how balancing should work, you put in small weaknesses in the design, which a good player can exploit, you dont put in hard counters like ECM...thats bad game design

[Stavinsky Elyas]

Codejack, on 21 December 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

But if they're boating, they don't have the slots for anything else; even a stalker can only carry so many DHS.

OK, again, a slow target should be chewing the streakcat up; the immobile target should be killed by anything that happens by. Even a heavy mech can torso twist enough while weapons cooldown to spread the damage over its arms.

All the saved weight let you put a bigger Engine, having a bigger engine mean you have more Double Heat Sink in the engine itself, and you can even put up to 3+ DHS in the engine, for no Slot cost at all.
See what I try to show you now ? You don't have to make the choice between having a high speed (huge engine with the benefit of more heat sink with no Slot cost), and the armor to balance, and the ammo.
You can have it all together. For a LRM boat you have to balance how many LRM you have, if you put the Artemis or not, and how many ammo you will have, and still have to find a way to put the engine and the Heat sink in your mech.

For a laser boat, you have to balance the amount of weapons, with the amount of Heat sink,
and for the Ballistic boats you have to balance the heavy loads of the weapons with the
ammo you have to get in, and the engine you want to put in, and the amount of heat you
will generate. Again you have to make choices.

You have to make CHOICE, some sacrifice, you can't be 'fast' while fully armored and ultra efficient with your weapons.

One Medic Army, on 21 December 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

I'll clarify that for you:
It's not the damage, it's the auto-aim damage for little to no cost.
It's like saying I have no issue with the AC/20 dealing 4x the damage of a medium laser, I have no issues because equipping one requires sacrifices.

You are pointing exactly what I try to make them understand

Murdalizer, on 21 December 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

Thats what i dont get....the fix to the Streakcat and now Streakstalker is HEAT.....instead of just adding up the heat while you chainfire those badboys, you put in a multiplyer, so 2+2+2 etc, becomes 2+2*2...making the heat spike and hard to control.

thats how balancing should work, you put in small weaknesses in the design, which a good player can exploit, you dont put in hard counters like ECM...thats bad game design

The ECM is working exactly like the Tabletop version, preventing the use of S-SRM
and canceling the advantage of Artemis, and such.

The difference in the Table top is that if a Light scout mech stop in the 'legs' of a 100 tons
atlas, it will end up having a nasty punch/kick in return, so you have to be carefull
when having an ECM equiped light get around heavies.

Edited by Stavinsky Elyas, 21 December 2012 - 07:24 PM.

[Codejack]

Stavinsky Elyas, on 21 December 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

The ECM is working exactly like the Tabletop version, preventing the use of S-SRM
and canceling the advantage of Artemis, and such.

No, the TT ECM did not prevent the use of SSRM!

[Taurick]

One Medic Army, on 21 December 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

I'll clarify that for you:
It's not the damage, it's the auto-aim damage for little to no cost.
It's like saying I have no issue with the AC/20 dealing 4x the damage of a medium laser, I have no issues because equipping one requires sacrifices.

People equipping SSRM2 on large mechs are sacrificing large amounts of damage...

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

One Medic Army, on 21 December 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

I'll clarify that for you:
It's not the damage, it's the auto-aim damage for little to no cost.
It's like saying I have no issue with the AC/20 dealing 4x the damage of a medium laser, I have no issues because equipping one requires sacrifices.

-.- it was meant as a joke...
heres 2 cbills buy a sense of humor
these forums are too damn serious

Stavinsky Elyas, on 21 December 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

The ECM is working exactly like the Tabletop version, preventing the use of S-SRM
and canceling the advantage of Artemis, and such.

The difference in the Table top is that if a Light scout mech stop in the 'legs' of a 100 tons
atlas, it will end up having a nasty punch/kick in return, so you have to be carefull
when having an ECM equiped light get around heavies.

Codejack, on 21 December 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

No, the TT ECM did not prevent the use of SSRM!

http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite

Quote

Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.^[2] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming.

what part prevents streak? Or missile locks at all?

oh this part: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Angel_ECM an entirely different piece of equipment

Quote

The Angel ECM Suite is an experimental version of the Guardian ECM Suite operating on a broader spectrum and greatly advances ECM technology on the battlefield. Development of the Angel began in the Draconis Combine shortly after the Battle of Luthien, but despite assistance from ComStar, cost overruns and internal problems within both powers delayed its widespread deployment. Clan Goliath Scorpion, having learned of the Angel's development, started copying the technology to create their own version

When did Angel ecm come out anyways sarna just says experimental not WHEN its experimental

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 21 December 2012 - 07:38 PM.

[One Medic Army]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 21 December 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

-.- it was meant as a joke...
heres 2 cbills buy a sense of humor
these forums are too damn serious

Sarcasm and irony don't tend to work too well via written communiques.

Also I just got to go pick up pizza, and the guy who ordered forgot to get any for me, so I'm a tad miffed over my microwave burritos at the mo, nothing personal.

[Codejack]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 21 December 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

When did Angel ecm come out anyways sarna just says experimental not WHEN its experimental

Ah, you have to dig a little; from your link:

Quote

Development of the Angel began in the Draconis Combineshortly after the Battle of Luthien, but despite assistance from ComStar, cost overruns and internal problems within both powers delayed its widespread deployment.

The battle of luthien (1st) was in 3052.

Edited by Codejack, 21 December 2012 - 07:48 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Codejack, on 21 December 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

Ah, you have to dig a little; from your link:



The battle of luthien (1st) was in 3052.

so two years from now. k, so not only is it op its inaccurate to the timeline lol
(since this doesnt translate well in text thats meant humorously)

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 21 December 2012 - 07:51 PM.

[AdrockThurston]

All the whining is pointless. Game is in beta still, and there will be tonnage limits stopping groups from taking more than 1 or 2 assaults. The stalker will be used less and less as people figure out that all they need to do to kill them is use a Raven tag team. Thus ending the 3 and 4 SSRM boat groups. As for the A1, they're a joke, knock off the dumbo ears and they're useless husks. Personally, I don't care how many SSRM boats you have, because I can still take a pair of them alone in a 4sp due to the high speed, better manuverability, and exceptional firepower(for a med chassis). Bottom line; If you can't hang, learn to pilot better or find a different build. Stay grouped up so you don't end up facing 3 boats at once. It's always puggers that complain about the game because majority haven't figured out that they aren't heroes, and that they should be playing as a team. You don't get 4+ kills a game running off by yourself.

[Helbourne]

People are losing it over SSRM 2s... wait till they get a taste of SSRM 6s. Clans have them in 3050, not the IS.

[Jaynis]

I just roll my eyes every single time someone complains about Streaks. They're painful against non-ECM light mechs for sure, but against most other mechs they don't have a huge impact. Especially when you compare them to normal SRMs.

9 times out of 10, normal SRMs will outclass Streakboats. SRMs are far more reliable in dealing pinpoint and large amounts of damage because they don't spread the damage around as much as Streaks now do. Not to mention a Steakcat'ing A1 with 6 SSRM2s is greatly outclassed by a C4 with 4 SRM 6's.

Someone above me also even stated that you're sacrificing a large amount of damage by dropping normal SRMs for Streaks. It is largely situations though, especially on a Chassis by Chassis basis.

But at this point in the game, complaining about Streaks is making mountains of molehills, they can be a crutch for some, as well as a skill level balancer, but overpowered they are not in the least.

Edited by 7thD3adlyS1n, 21 December 2012 - 08:41 PM.

[Stavinsky Elyas]

AdrockThurston, on 21 December 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:

All the whining is pointless. Game is in beta still, and there will be tonnage limits stopping groups from taking more than 1 or 2 assaults. The stalker will be used less and less as people figure out that all they need to do to kill them is use a Raven tag team. Thus ending the 3 and 4 SSRM boat groups. As for the A1, they're a joke, knock off the dumbo ears and they're useless husks. Personally, I don't care how many SSRM boats you have, because I can still take a pair of them alone in a 4sp due to the high speed, better manuverability, and exceptional firepower(for a med chassis). Bottom line; If you can't hang, learn to pilot better or find a different build. Stay grouped up so you don't end up facing 3 boats at once. It's always puggers that complain about the game because majority haven't figured out that they aren't heroes, and that they should be playing as a team. You don't get 4+ kills a game running off by yourself.

You are right, but in my case I got as far as managing twice a 8 kill game, and a couple of 7 kills games.
When not having regular 7 to 8 assist when not doing the killing myself.

I don't have a 2 to 1 kill ratio for nothing.

Actually my first post was still a question about the Dev decision, and what they are going to do about
the SSRM boats. As they have clearly stated that such boatings are troubles.

And one thing, the problem is usually not a "single" boat here and there.
It's the Boating teams who come with the ECM, the taging and all what you need to have a 4 men squad winning
the game by abusing that game mechanics. And those are the ones who cause troubles in such games mostly.


Edit :

And i wanted to add, I find the SSRM2 definitively strong, as I have soloed a good number of
assaults in my Jenner with only 2 of those SSRM2, with 2 tons of ammo, and some med lasers.

Edited by Stavinsky Elyas, 21 December 2012 - 08:44 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

AdrockThurston, on 21 December 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:

All the whining is pointless. Game is in beta still

you defeat your own argument right here.
Complaining is NOT pointless in beta as one person's "whining" is another's "feedback" and THATS WHY WE ARE HERE