195 replies to this topic

[Noth]

Ivanzypher, on 22 December 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

ECM doesn't really bother me. My main mech uses LRMs too. If an ECM mech is giving you trouble just use your backup weapons(you do have some Mlas on your mech right?) to take him out. Job done. The only people who should be whining about ECM are streakboats and pure LRM boats, both of which are stupid builds anyway. Boating one weapon shouldn't be a viable build, and now the two main culprits for it are buggered. I could see maybe increasing the weight(3 tons maybe?) to represent the fact that it has the effects of several TT pieces of gear, and to make it less of a no brainer.

Also, when the netcode is fixed, all those pesky ECM lights will get blown to pieces, leaving us with only the Atlas D-DC to worry about, and it's not really hard to focus fire one assault down between a whole team.

In short, ECM is fine. And no, I don't drive an ECM mech. My main is a near stock Stalker 3F.

To make up for it's null signature, it should require 7 additional slots, generate 10 heat while active, and prevent the use of any other electronics and cut you off from target sharing while active. Denying locks and limiting sensor range without giving up your own sensor range came with a hefty price.

[Sarevos]

Noth, on 22 December 2012 - 11:02 AM, said:

To make up for it's null signature, it should require 7 additional slots, generate 10 heat while active, and prevent the use of any other electronics and cut you off from target sharing while active. Denying locks and limiting sensor range without giving up your own sensor range came with a hefty price.

null sig stealths your heat as well doesnt it? and again we should already have passive sensor mode available

[Noth]

Sarevos, on 22 December 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

null sig stealths your heat as well doesnt it? and again we should already have passive sensor mode available

Passive sensors you lose your own sensor capability too so it's balanced that way. Yes Null sig does heat and the ECM doesn't, but the null sig also doesn't expand it's effect to nearby friendlies. So I'd still give it the same downsides since it still has a very powerful bonus.

Edited by Noth, 22 December 2012 - 11:09 AM.

[Sarevos]

Noth, on 22 December 2012 - 11:09 AM, said:

Passive sensors you lose your own sensor capability too so it's balanced that way. Yes Null sig does heat and the ECM doesn't, but the null sig also doesn't expand it's effect to nearby friendlies. So I'd still give it the same downsides since it still has a very powerful bonus.

ecm is pretty close to canon see here and read carefully the range thing is there and its an aoe stealth streaks still function though

Edited by Sarevos, 22 December 2012 - 11:19 AM.

[Noth]

Sarevos, on 22 December 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

ecm is pretty close to canon see here and read carefully

It actually doesn't lower detection range, Null signature system is what does that. ECM also doesn't prevent locks in canon, it makes them less accurate (angle ECM prevents SSRM locks, but that is it). ECM blocks out the effects of various added tech such as artemis, narc, C3, BAP. So that fact that it prevents locks and lowers detection range to all in it's bubble is a huge upgrade from what it does in canon.

I could live with a reduction in detection range to something like 400-500, but 200 is ridiculous (leave that to stealth armor and null signature and you should still be able to lock the target.

[Sarevos]

Noth, on 22 December 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

It actually doesn't lower detection range, Null signature system is what does that. ECM also doesn't prevent locks in canon, it makes them less accurate (angle ECM prevents SSRM locks, but that is it). ECM blocks out the effects of various added tech such as artemis, narc, C3, BAP. So that fact that it prevents locks and lowers detection range to all in it's bubble is a huge upgrade from what it does in canon.

I could live with a reduction in detection range to something like 400-500, but 200 is ridiculous (leave that to stealth armor and null signature and you should still be able to lock the target.

400-500 should be BAP and it should inform you of jamming at edit FULL range this is something I agree on but the ecm jams detection radius for the group by:

emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors

Edited by Sarevos, 22 December 2012 - 11:29 AM.

[Lupus Aurelius]

Multiple threads out there about TAG and NARC are counters to ECM, and also comments of dumb firing LRMs by “leading the target” . People, and the DEVs also, have to understand the logical inconsistency here, and no matter how many times, and how many people, want to repeat that statement, it does not make it true.

TAG and NARC are not counters to ECM, no matter what anyone, including the DEVs, want to tell you. Trying to lead a target and hitting by “dumb firing” is just that, dumb.

ECM vs. TAG & NARC

ECM:
-AOE (Area of Effect) system, that creates a 180 m radius bubble around the generating unit. Anything on the opposing team within that 180 radius bubble is not lockable or targetable.
-can be placed in any 2 adjacent crits,
-weights 1.5 tons,
-takes no heat,
-takes no targeting,
-no aiming whatsoever,
-permanently runs at all times.

TAG
-LOS (Line of Sight)
-have to keep the TAG on the target at all times in order to target and lock 1 hostile.
-takes 1 crit, but it is an Energy Weapon hardpoint
-weights 1 ton,
-has to be activated by holding a button down the whole time
-max range is now 750 m,

NARC:
-LOS (Line of Sight) to launch on 1 enemy mech
-functions for only 20 secs, in which time you have to launch missiles and have them hit target. At range, effectively meand 1 volley of missiles.
-weights 3 tons
-requires 2 crits, and a Missile Weapon hardpoint
-requires ammo, 6 shots per ton
-missile speed of 250 m per second
-has a max range of 270 m

At best, the NARC and TAG could be used against slower mechs, like assaults, heavies, and some of the mediums, but against the lights and the Cicada, good luck. With TAG, you have to keep the module activated, so jam a key to keep it on, then maintain that pinpoint laser the whole time that you are attemping to target and lock him, and also the whole time that missles are in flight so they have a chance to impact.

With NARC, it's even worse, you have to get within 270 m, account for lead since it travels at 250 m a second, and hit that fast moving target. Also, to even equip it, it required you to have a missile hardpoint, sacrifice it to fit the NARC, uses 3 tons and a minimum of 1 ton of ammo, for a total of 4 tons. Which gives, if you were able to actually get one on a target, a 20 sec window to react, target, fire, and impact with weapons.

Try this against a 120 kph Commando, see what happens. We have, was good for a few laughs, then the guys stripped the NARCs from their mechs. So effectively, other than a D-DC Atlas, NARC and TAG are non viable against ECM lights and the ECM CIcada. At best, they are marginally useful against heavier non-ECM mechs, but with the amount of time you have to be exposed to actually get line of sight with a TAG, or the active time of a NARC, the ablity to effectively use missile fire against ECM covered mechs makes neither one, not combining their use, an effective counter

Dumb firing target with LRMs by “leading the target”

This is another comment we see – learn to lead your targets with dumb fired LRMs. It’s another disingenuous argument, for the following reasons:
-Unlike LOS weapons, missles do not travel in a straight line. They travel in an arc, and impact on a specific location based on the distance where the reticle is targeted at that time. You would have to determine the distance the mech is at, then try and predict movement, then try to target a landscape feature in the probable location at the correct distance.
-LRM travel speed is 100 m per second. At 500 m, it would take 5 seconds for the missiles traveling to that point, more than sufficient time for even an Atlas to move well past the impact point. For comparison, look at projectile speeds:
* AC2 2000 m/s
* AC/20 projectile set to 900m/s (750m/s previous)
* AC/10 projectile set to 1100m/s (850m/s previous)
* UAC/5 projectile set to 1300m/s (900m/s previous)
* AC/5 projectile set to 1300m/s (900m/s previous)
* LBX/10 projectile set to 1100m/s (850m/s previous)
...and PPCs:
* PPC projectile speed increased to 2000m/s
* ERPPC projectile speed matched to regular PPC (2000m/s)
And continue in a straight line, so if the target is retreating, the projectile can still "catch" the target. The slowest projectile is 9 TIMES FASTER than LRMs!

This is also why TAG is ineffective. A target at 700 m, you have to keep that TAG pinpointed on that target for approximately 10-12 seconds, 1-2 seconds for people to react to the target TAG, 1-2 seconds to actually click the button and the firing delay, and 7 seconds minimum for travel time. Try to keep that TAG on a Commando running in and out of landscape features for that amount of time, you'll find it harder than you think. So even with TAG, LRMs are really only effective at a few hundred meters with the current ECM mechanics, mostly due to travel time.

The worst issue id this - a 1.5 ton 2xcrit item has no downside to it's use. Never mind the counter issue, there is no disadvatage to using ECM heavy squads.

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 22 December 2012 - 12:00 PM.

[Stone Profit]

Nqh ecm is fine. Just use the old mark 1 01 sensors.

[latdheretic]

Sarevos, on 22 December 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

ecm is pretty close to canon see here and read carefully

Not so:
TT ECM did not reduce targeting range, it simply disrupted advanced electronics. From your own link:
"Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming." Also Streak is not on the list. According to lore, direct fire LRM's (without electronic boosting of Narc or Artemis) and Streaks are completely unaffected by ECM.

The problem is that in MWO these systems are castrated by ECM.

So ECM has the effect of changing the nature of engagement. Players who liked to play LRM support mechs and/or used Streak systems as a light mech counter tend to be frustrated by ECM implementation. Those who prefer fast lights and direct fire brawlers have gotten a big boost from ECM and tend to like it.
I'll be the first to admit I liked LRM's and Streaks, my two favorite mech builds where a LRM support Centurion AL and a CN9-A with 3 SSRM 2's as a light counter. For me the game has become very annoying and I lost all enjoyment out of playing.

I have to admit to being biased, but consider these thoughts:

ECM is a 1.5 ton piece of equipment.
The Devs felt the need to limit the scope of the deployment by limiting it to just certain chassis of certain mechs.
These chassis have now become quite popular and have replaced other favorites in the same classes.
AMS, another 1.5 ton (with ammo) piece of defensive equipment has become nearly pointless.

Clearly the benefit of ECM currently far outweighs any other 1.5 tons you could possibly choose for your mech. If ECM was opened up to all mechs, it would handily become a mandatory piece of equiptment, and would be required for all competitive builds. This tells me, that the devs have gone too far with it.

What can be done to fix it?
To start off with it SHOULD distupt Narc, Artemis, and BAP per cannon.
Preventing a mech in the bubble from target sharing seems reasonable as well, but do not remove locks from mechs in the bubble, their communications are disrupted, but the mechwarrior, and computer system didn't suddenly become stupid. (and streaks should still work.)
Target range reduction for a mech in LOS however does not make sense, ECM does not disrupt photons, they don't make you invisible so take out target range reduction.
Those 2 change ought to fix things, at least get the currently grossly overpowered system in the right ballpark.

[Sarevos]

latdheretic, on 22 December 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

Not so:
TT ECM did not reduce targeting range, it simply disrupted advanced electronics. From your own link:
"Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming." Also Streak is not on the list. According to lore, direct fire LRM's (without electronic boosting of Narc or Artemis) and Streaks are completely unaffected by ECM.

The problem is that in MWO these systems are castrated by ECM.

So ECM has the effect of changing the nature of engagement. Players who liked to play LRM support mechs and/or used Streak systems as a light mech counter tend to be frustrated by ECM implementation. Those who prefer fast lights and direct fire brawlers have gotten a big boost from ECM and tend to like it.
I'll be the first to admit I liked LRM's and Streaks, my two favorite mech builds where a LRM support Centurion AL and a CN9-A with 3 SSRM 2's as a light counter. For me the game has become very annoying and I lost all enjoyment out of playing.

I have to admit to being biased, but consider these thoughts:

ECM is a 1.5 ton piece of equipment.
The Devs felt the need to limit the scope of the deployment by limiting it to just certain chassis of certain mechs.
These chassis have now become quite popular and have replaced other favorites in the same classes.
AMS, another 1.5 ton (with ammo) piece of defensive equipment has become nearly pointless.

Clearly the benefit of ECM currently far outweighs any other 1.5 tons you could possibly choose for your mech. If ECM was opened up to all mechs, it would handily become a mandatory piece of equiptment, and would be required for all competitive builds. This tells me, that the devs have gone too far with it.

What can be done to fix it?
To start off with it SHOULD distupt Narc, Artemis, and BAP per cannon.
Preventing a mech in the bubble from target sharing seems reasonable as well, but do not remove locks from mechs in the bubble, their communications are disrupted, but the mechwarrior, and computer system didn't suddenly become stupid. (and streaks should still work.)
Target range reduction for a mech in LOS however does not make sense, ECM does not disrupt photons, they don't make you invisible so take out target range reduction.
Those 2 change ought to fix things, at least get the currently grossly overpowered system in the right ballpark.

this goes with the reading carefully thing...

emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors

Edited by Sarevos, 22 December 2012 - 11:59 AM.

[Kousagi]

Noth, on 22 December 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

What? I snuck up on people while piloting slow mechs all the time before ECM. BAP doesn't work like previous MW games. Under my idea it would still be limited to certain mechs, and deny target sharing for those caught under the bubble, while denying the effects of various other electronics against the units under the bubble. It would also decrease the accuracy of missiles. The idea is to still make it an effort to sneak and flank people because it is way way too easy right now with ECM.

As for LRMs locking on, that is a throw back to all other MW game (which ECM was not as powerful in either). Further navel and lore are show that LRMs lock on.

You might have been able to sneak up on some people, but they didn't have BAP/Sensor mods, so they only had a detection range of like 800 meters or so. Not sure of what standard range is. Though heavy use of terrain could allow ya to sneak some. Though If they had BAP/Sensor mod, one split sec of LOS anywhere on the map and you were found out. Which is how i set up my streak cat. I was a flying radar you could not hide from.

What does BAP and other MW titles have to do with anything?

LRM's in canon don't lock, as Artemis is their semi-guidance system. They are even described as "designed to engage the enemy at great distances at the expense of damage dealt. Adapted towards the profusion of electronic jamming on the battlefield and the effectiveness of current armor designs".

The novels are never 100% canon. plus BT has some odd namings which throw people off, Like Short Range Missiles. Missiles have a guidance system, rockets do not. So why do we call SRM's Missiles when they are pure dumb fire? Would that not make them Rockets? So it should be SRR's, and Streaks should be called SRM's. Same with LRM's, they should be LRR, and if they are the streak or artemis version they would be LRM's.

Edited by Kousagi, 22 December 2012 - 12:08 PM.

[Sarevos]

Kousagi, on 22 December 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

LRM's in canon don't lock, as Artemis is their semi-guidance system. They are even described as "designed to engage the enemy at great distances at the expense of damage dealt. Adapted towards the profusion of electronic jamming on the battlefield and the effectiveness of current armor designs".

we cant really aim at any spot on the ground so thats the only real solution i can foresee unless you get ridiculous flight times or you fired them on the battlegrid lol. I would like artemis to allow you to guide lrms towards a target location (your reticule) that would make them so much more fun to use and more useful

Edited by Sarevos, 22 December 2012 - 12:14 PM.

[DocBach]

Sarevos, on 22 December 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

this goes with the reading carefully thing...

emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors

Hmm. Looks like ECM should be buffed to also jam out your thermal and night vision, too.

However, according to Total Warfare (not a wiki, but the actual rulebook):

ECM SUITE
An ECM suite has an effect radius of six hexes that creates a“bubble” around the carrying unit. The ECM’s disruptive abilities affect all enemy units inside this bubble, as well as any line of sight traced through the bubble. It has no effect on units friendly to the unit carrying the ECM.
In the ECM diagram, the ’Mech in Hex A on the Open Terrain#1 map is equipped with an ECM suite, which has an effect radius of six hexes (shown as the shaded area). The suite affects any enemy unit in this area or any enemy LOS traced through it. The ’Mech in Hex B is affected because it falls inside the effect radius. A shot from Hex C to Hex D would also be affected because LOS passes through the radius. A shot from Hex C to Hex E would not be affected because LOS does not pass through the radius.
Within its effect radius, an ECM suite has the following effects on the following systems. The ECM suite does not affect other scanning and targeting devices, such as TAG and targeting computers.
Active Probe:
Active probes cannot penetrate the ECM’s area of effect. The probing unit would notice that it is being jammed,however.
Artemis IV FCS:
ECM blocks the effects of Artemis IV fire control systems. Artemis-equipped launchers may be fired as normal missiles through the ECM, but they lose the Cluster Hits Table bonus.
Narc Missile Beacon:
Missiles equipped to home in on an attached Narc pod lose the Cluster Hits Table bonus for that system if the pods themselves lie within an ECM “bubble.” The Narc launcher itself (standard and iNarc) is not affected by ECM.
C3 and C3i Computer:
ECM has the effect of “cutting off” any C3-equipped unit from its network. If a C3 master unit is isolated from the network because it ventures inside the ECM radius, the entire portion of the network below it is effectively shut off (all units subordinate to it on the diagram on p. 132). Only those C3 units able to draw an LOS to the master unit that does not pass through the ECM radius can access the network. If the master unit that connects the lances of a company lies inside the ECM effect radius, the link between the lances is lost, though each lance’s network functions normally (unless the ECM also interferes with them individually).

So what the rules say is ECM kills Artemis, NARC, C3 and Beagle. It does not effect targeting or scanning or weapons fire - however, it should block enemy units in the bubble from relaying target information to other units as it effects communications networks and sharing (C3). It should not block you or other units in the bubble from being detected on radar or targeted by weapons systems.

[Noth]

Kousagi, on 22 December 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

You might have been able to sneak up on some people, but they didn't have BAP/Sensor mods, so they only had a detection range of like 800 meters or so. Not sure of what standard range is. Though heavy use of terrain could allow ya to sneak some. Though If they had BAP/Sensor mod, one split sec of LOS anywhere on the map and you were found out. Which is how i set up my streak cat. I was a flying radar you could not hide from.

What does BAP and other MW titles have to do with anything?

LRM's in canon don't lock, as Artemis is their semi-guidance system. They are even described as "designed to engage the enemy at great distances at the expense of damage dealt. Adapted towards the profusion of electronic jamming on the battlefield and the effectiveness of current armor designs".

The novels are never 100% canon. plus BT has some odd namings which throw people off, Like Short Range Missiles. Missiles have a guidance system, rockets do not. So why do we call SRM's Missiles when they are pure dumb fire? Would that not make them Rockets? So it should be SRR's, and Streaks should be called SRM's. Same with LRM's, they should be LRR, and if they are the streak or artemis version they would be LRM's.

TT is an abstraction of 10 second rounds, thus they could be locking. We don't know, so you look to other source material for that and pretty much all other source material LRMs lock on. Also technically SRMs aren't supposed to be dumbfire, they are supposed to have some guidance (hence why artemis helps them), that however doesn't fit that well in game so was changed. MRMs are dumbfire yet are still called missiles.

And yes, I could sneak up on people using BAP, it was harder, but still doable. It's just flat easy mode now. I feel there are less tactics used now than before ECM showed up. I see less variety of lights, and less variety of assulats in general (excluding the current new one, which always happens when a new mech is released), that is not a good sign. I could also avoid most of the missile fire before ECMs. I died for the first time in months to direct missile fire for the first time in months last night and it wasn't because they are too strong or anything, I was simply lazy and didn't do anything to prevent it because I was used to having ECM.

[Sarevos]

DocBach, on 22 December 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

Hmm. Looks like ECM should be buffed to also jam out your thermal and night vision, too.

However, according to Total Warfare (not a wiki, but the actual rulebook):

ECM SUITE
An ECM suite has an effect radius of six hexes that creates a“bubble” around the carrying unit. The ECM’s disruptive abilities affect all enemy units inside this bubble, as well as any line of sight traced through the bubble. It has no effect on units friendly to the unit carrying the ECM.
In the ECM diagram, the ’Mech in Hex A on the Open Terrain#1 map is equipped with an ECM suite, which has an effect radius of six hexes (shown as the shaded area). The suite affects any enemy unit in this area or any enemy LOS traced through it. The ’Mech in Hex B is affected because it falls inside the effect radius. A shot from Hex C to Hex D would also be affected because LOS passes through the radius. A shot from Hex C to Hex E would not be affected because LOS does not pass through the radius.
Within its effect radius, an ECM suite has the following effects on the following systems. The ECM suite does not affect other scanning and targeting devices, such as TAG and targeting computers.
Active Probe:
Active probes cannot penetrate the ECM’s area of effect. The probing unit would notice that it is being jammed,however.
Artemis IV FCS:
ECM blocks the effects of Artemis IV fire control systems. Artemis-equipped launchers may be fired as normal missiles through the ECM, but they lose the Cluster Hits Table bonus.
Narc Missile Beacon:
Missiles equipped to home in on an attached Narc pod lose the Cluster Hits Table bonus for that system if the pods themselves lie within an ECM “bubble.” The Narc launcher itself (standard and iNarc) is not affected by ECM.
C3 and C3i Computer:
ECM has the effect of “cutting off” any C3-equipped unit from its network. If a C3 master unit is isolated from the network because it ventures inside the ECM radius, the entire portion of the network below it is effectively shut off (all units subordinate to it on the diagram on p. 132). Only those C3 units able to draw an LOS to the master unit that does not pass through the ECM radius can access the network. If the master unit that connects the lances of a company lies inside the ECM effect radius, the link between the lances is lost, though each lance’s network functions normally (unless the ECM also interferes with them individually).

So what the rules say is ECM kills Artemis, NARC, C3 and Beagle. It does not effect targeting or scanning or weapons fire - however, it should block enemy units in the bubble from relaying target information to other units as it effects communications networks and sharing (C3). It should not block you or other units in the bubble from being detected on radar or targeted by weapons systems.

Tactical operations has the same subtext as the one i underlined but i cannot link a book i can only link the compilation site...

also how did you miss that in your own written statement?

Edited by Sarevos, 22 December 2012 - 12:23 PM.

[Noth]

Sarevos, on 22 December 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

Tactical operations has the same subtext as the one i underlined but i cannot link a book i can only link the compilation site...

also how did you miss that in your own written statement?

Not effecting any other scanning or targeting devices seem to be an exception to the rule of disrupting LOS traces.

[Kousagi]

Sarevos, on 22 December 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

we cant really aim at any spot on the ground so thats the only real solution i can foresee unless you get ridiculous flight times or you fired them on the battlegrid lol. I would like artemis to allow you to guide lrms towards a target location (your reticule) that would make them so much more fun to use and more useful

Ya, i really do think LRM's move too slowly. I mean TOW's move faster, and them things are huge for vech mounted weapons. Artemis really should work like a tarck to crosshair kinda thing, as thats kinda what it is. Since the artemis system uses a laser to guide the missiles in, Which is odd that ECM kills artemis in TT, cause the use the tight-band transmitter is kinda pointless for laser guided weapons. Guess that was a balancing thing they did.

Edited by Kousagi, 22 December 2012 - 12:23 PM.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Either nerf ECM down to reality or buff the BAP up to par as a counter and equally viable device(Instead of leaving it worthless like it currently is). If the BAP restored some radar range alone, it'd fix Streaks entirely and make LRMs less of a lost cause. But even with the ability to lock, you're still timer delayed and lose every Artemis benefit. ECM does too much. BAP does too little(Or nothing at all) We shouldn't have a scale where one side is on the floor and the other is up to max. There's no balance here at all and they didn't even attempt any with the ECM patch or its follow up patch.

[DocBach]

Sarevos, on 22 December 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

Tactical operations has the same subtext as the one i underlined but i cannot link a book i can only link the compilation site...

also how did you miss that in your own written statement?

and also note OTHER SYSTEM

Tactical Operations describes ECM being used as ECCM, Angel ECM being the equivalent of 2 ECM or ECCM, ECM projecting ghost targets, and using large communication equipment as ECM.


ECM SUITES
The rules below expand on the use of ECM suites.
ECCM
An ECM suite can be tuned to act as electronic counter-countermeasures (ECCM) in order to negate enemy ECM systems. The ECM loses its normal functions when used in this way. The player must announce the switch to ECCM in the End Phase of any turn,or may set the suite for ECCM at the start of the scenario. In either case, note the change on the record sheet of the unit in question. While the ECCM suite is active, the electronic countermeasures of an enemy unit within the ECCM’s radius will not work. Also, any LOS traced through a hex that is encompassed by both ECM and ECCM will be unaffected by the ECM, even if the actual unit carry-ing the ECM suite is outside the ECCM bubble.If multiple units equipped with both ECM and ECCM are on the map, the interaction between the two types of electronics systems becomes complicated, because multiple ECM suites operating in the same area can counter an enemy’s ECCM (see ECCM diagram,p. 101). One ECCM suite can counter one ECM suite. If the amount of friendly ECCM in a hex is equal to or greater than the enemy ECM in that hex, ECM does not function in that hex. For this purpose, the Angel ECM suite (see p. 279) counts as two ECM or ECCM suites, or the player can choose to run the Angel at 1 ECM and 1 ECCM.
Communications Equipment:
Communications equipment(see p. 212,TechManual ) can be used to generate an ECCM field with the same area of effect as an Inner Sphere Guardian ECM Suite. Any unit that mounts 3 to 6 tons of communications equip-ment equals half of an ECM suite when generating an ECCM field. If the unit mounts 7 or more tons of communications equipment, it equals 1 ECM suite when generating an ECCM. Any time communications equipment is used to generate an ECCM field, all other bonus modifiers are lost.
Ghost Targets
An ECM suite can be tuned to generate “ghost targets” that may affect the ability of enemy units to properly target friendly units. The ECM loses its normal functions when used in this way. The player must announce the switch to ghost target generation in the End Phase of any turn, or may set the suite for ghost target generation at the start of the scenario. In either case, note the change on the record sheet of the unit in question.At the start of every Weapon Attack Phase when an ECM is tuned to generating ghost targets, the controlling player makes a Piloting Skill Roll with a +2 modifer; no other modi-fiers are applied to this roll. If the roll fails, he did not tune the ECM correctly and no effects are applied for that turn. On a successful roll result, he attuned the ECM properly; the player should note the result’s Margin of Success.During a turn’s Weapon Attack Phase, if a weapon attack passes through the ECM bubble of an enemy ECM tuned to generating ghost targets and the controlling player made a successful Piloting Skill Roll that turn, the attacking player must also make a Piloting Skill Roll before making a to-hit roll for the weapon attack in question; the only modifier added to this Piloting Skill Roll is the MoS of the enemy ECM unit. If the roll is a success, the to-hit roll is made as normal; the attacker’s targeting and tracking system is able to differentiate between all the ghost targets. If the roll fails, for every 2 MoF (rounddown), apply a +1 to-hit modifer to all weapon attacks that pass through the ECM bubble for that turn by that attacker. Note that an attacking player only makes a single roll, regard-less of how many weapons are firing, applying any modifiers to all weapon attacks equally.


If an attack passes through multiple ghost target-generating ECM fields, only a single roll is made. Determine the highest Mar-gin of Success from those multiple enemy ECM fields, applying an additional +1 for each additional field, and then applying the total modifier to the Piloting Skill Roll. A +4 to-hit modifier is the maximum that can be applied to a weapon attack through the use of ghost target ECM fields. For example, if an attack passed through three ghost target-generating ECM fields and the highest Margin of Success of those fields was a 3, the modifier applied to the Piloting Skill Roll would be 4 [+3 (highest MoS of the three ECM fields) +2 (2 additional ECM fields) = 5, but only a maximum+4 can be applied].
Angel ECM Suite:
An Angel ECM Suite can be tuned to be 1ECM or 1 ECCM while it generates ghost targets.
Communications Equipment:
Communications equipment(see p. 212,TechManual) can be used to generate ghost targets with the same area of effect as an Inner Sphere Guardian ECM suite.However, to do so, the unit must mount 7 or more tons of communications equipment. Any time communications equipment is used to generate an ECCM field, all other bonus modifiers are lost.
ECCM:
Just as standard ECM functions cease when inside an enemy ECCM field, an ECM cannot generate ghost targets if the amount of friendly ECCM in a hex is less than the enemy ECCM in that hex.
Active Probe:
For any unit making an attack that also mounts an active probe, apply a +1 modifier to the die roll result when making the Piloting Skill Roll to determine the to-hit modifier as described above.
Targeting Computers:
Any units making an attack with a weapon wedded to a targeting computer (see 143, TW) apply a+2 modifier to the die roll result when making the Piloting Skill Roll to determine the to-hit modifier as described above.
Cockpit Command Console:
If a unit mounts a cockpit command console and has a second pilot that enables all its other abilities to function (see Cockpit Command Console, p. 300), it can be used to generate ghost targets with the same area of effect as an Inner Sphere Guardian ECM suite. Additionally, apply a +3modifier to the die roll result when making the Piloting Skill Roll to determine the to-hit modifier for attacks from such a unit as described above.

Edited by DocBach, 22 December 2012 - 12:37 PM.

[Sarevos]

Noth, on 22 December 2012 - 12:21 PM, said:

Not effecting any other scanning or targeting devices seem to be an exception to the rule of disrupting LOS traces.

oh and he only posted ecm suite and not the guardians separate tech readout