108 replies to this topic

[Ursh]

Uhm, no R&R costs right now mean people are bringing their best mechs to every game, even when they're pugging.

The rewards system provides a disincentive for dying early before doing some damage, and that's enough.


There's cautious and crafty, and then there's being a coward who uses all of your teammates as a shield, or who abandons the assault brawlers the minute someone from the other team pings a few shots on you. There are players who are never first, or even second, across the ridge, and whose entire playstyle revolves around letting everyone else engage, and then cleaning up on the damage and kills. It backfires though when their hyper-cautious approach means that they aren't putting enough concentrated firepower into the fight early enough for their team to pull out a win.

[Ghost Inc]

The Remove of R&R made the game viable for new players with their first mechs and viable for players who don't use premium time, MCs and/or Founders Mechs and Hero Mechs. Henceforth, i predict more players to stick with the game.

I would have never bought an Atlas due to the horrendous costs. Well, since I've bought it, i deal ludicrous amounts of damage and help my team better than I ever could.

Sometimes, fun in an online game is about progress. If everytime you lose a match, you also lose money, you will see no progress.

People now have a real incentive to actually win a match rather than to save their own ***** to avoid cbill loss.

It also adds more variety in the game, we have more "exotic" loadouts now and the mechs specifically created to grind are gone. Just think about this...you build a Mech to GRIND. To make more CBILLS. That is far from lore enough.

Bringing Back R&R will be a setback for the game. I hope, in due time, more people will understand this.

[idle crow]

I actually found pug games really boring when we had R&R. Often you could dominate a game with your top of the line mech well coming up against waves of trial mechs...

You saw a lot of base caps to avoid any type of R&R well grinding c-bills. *yawn*

No one was actually playing the game but grinding the game. Now we actually see people playing the game.

People are also figuring out the new system. Rushing in with no support is just as stupid now as before. You score little damage, kills or kill assists. So little reward (ie c-bills). It actually pays out pretty well if your a solid team player right now.

[QuantumButler]

A change for the better.

[Furmansky]

PANZERBUNNY, on 23 December 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

I was hoping we'd see a war of attrition in Clan Warfare, fighting over planets, burning through millions of C-Bills as we bring out are pimped out mechs that cost a mint to repair, breaking each others wallets for control of territory.

I guess I'm on the wrong wave length.

Man I think we are on the same boat...
I was hoping for a big imersive experience, but just got a ticket to a supermarket that even doesn't sell beer...
Don't get me wrong guys I still love the game but from my point of view it is turning in wrong direction. Devs are dropping main core ideas one by one, ones I liked and invested my cash cause of them. Invested to make devs secure that I am willing to spend more cash and they have big support. I've seen their dream and belived in it, but lately it just got black and white...

As for lack of repairs, well beefore I was sitting and planning my builds to be cost effective, tried to learn their weak sides and advatages. Now I'm just grinding cash till I get to certain target, best what I can possible fit in on my mech no planning ahead, just small variations. I liked my ****** wee garage even if it was crap as hell with nearly no possible interaction from my side... Still looking for repair and rearm buttons after every match...

Edited by Furmansky, 24 December 2012 - 04:02 AM.

[Blue Shadow]

Hmmm a lot of you are saying you don't care about taking damage? If you stroll out into the field of battle without being at least a bit careful then you'll be dead soon, you'll not be helping your team that way, or your self as you'll miss out on making more kills, assists, and damage and that's a loss of CBills for you. The only thing you don't need to worry about anymore is your CBill earnings going into the negative..... after all XL engines already have a few down sides for balance do they really need to continue to cost you an arm and a leg?

[Loonix]

Op4blushift, on 24 December 2012 - 12:10 AM, said:

I really don't get this. R&R did not make me play any more cautiously then I do now and when R&R was in the game I didn't try to take less damage or conserve ammunition to curb repair and rearm costs, I did it too stay alive in the game longer and to have more ammo to continuously deal out damage rather then being useless and easy pickings later on in the game. R&R hasn't changed the way I play matches at all, and I really don't see too many idiots charging out to their deaths because there isn't any consequence for it (not a difference from when R&R was in). About the only thing it has done is made more people bring out some fancier rides with XL engines and what not as they don't have such a huge consequence for doing so, and even then I haven't really noticed a huge difference in loadouts being used.

This. 100% this.

The only difference for me is that I can use an XL engine, without having to contemplate the possibility of huge repair bills. Perhaps that's why I've seen more Dragons lately. I've not noticed an increase in banzai pilots but I will keep an eye out for it. As for the economy in general, so far it seems good. Especially as a fire support, Medium pilot who often gets 5-7 assists but only the occasional kill.

Repair and Re-arm is an arbitrary mechanic anyway. You are not going to go into the next battle without doing it anyway, so why have it as an option? As long as people are still paying for ammunition consumption I don't see much of an issue. Admittedly, building a financially viable mech used to be a minor concern for me. But this is Mechwarrior not Mech-economy simulator. The combat is far more important.

Ultimately you will win or lose. If you lose, 90% of the time you will die anyway (even in conquest so far). If you win the match, you have a good chance of surviving statistically. Given the reality, I don't see the point worrying too much about repair costs, the average player will get destroyed half the time anyway. Better to worry how you can win the match.

Finally, the game is still in Beta, I'd rather not see newer players suffer because of AFK'ers and disconnects (which for the time being rather negates the OP argument anyway).

Edited by HouseCat, 24 December 2012 - 04:44 AM.

[BatWing]

Well, I look at this in a very simple way:

EZ Mode On.

Play, make money. Buy Stuff. TEST more. (Is it still a BETA?).

Everyone gets everything and doesn t have to really be concerned about their actions.

As someone else said "I am not concerned to use my XL engine because i don t have to think about high repair bills" or "I can use Artemis Ammos with no expenses finally".

It is great for PGI to capture more players right now. I am quite sure the community was already going down therefore this is an injection of gameplay in easy mode.

Gamers will have more fun. Win oe Lose there is no difference. Focus on Kills. Conquest has wrong values and is not incentivating any conquest, therefore the Economy (if there is any in this game anymore) is just there to allow you to USE everything NOW.

I created a secondary account to see what is the new player experience NOW.

Well, CADET BONUS plus 1 DAY FREE PREMIUM BONUS = 700..000 CBs per match. in 4 hours game I bought my first Command ECM with all the goodies, sold it and got the RAVEN ECM with all the goodies. Got faster XLs to storm the battlefield and all what I need to be a pain in the ***.
All of that in 4 hours as a new player.

As I said, EZ Mode on, no challenges... if this game will ever be Out of BETA, i hope it will become a bit more serious

[Loonix]

PANZERBUNNY, on 23 December 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

I was hoping we'd see a war of attrition in Clan Warfare, fighting over planets, burning through millions of C-Bills as we bring out are pimped out mechs that cost a mint to repair, breaking each others wallets for control of territory.

I guess I'm on the wrong wave length.

I'd absolutely love to see that too, but I can't imagine the old economy would support it anyway. Plenty of people could save up a decent amount of money to buffer repairs with ease, and given the fact that on average you win as much as you lose, wars would be a lengthy standstill with either side financially fine.

That kind of game play/mode might require a separate mechanic. Such as an additional fixed fee for each ton of mech you bring into a war for territory. Or perhaps groups will bid how much they can win a planet for, and once that money runs out they lose; smaller bid = less mechs= more risk, higher reward.

If you affected the old economy to introduce such a game mode (which would presumably require higher repair costs) it could make the grind too intense for casual players. I'll accept the game could certainly be harder, but I'd be careful exactly how much.

Edited by HouseCat, 24 December 2012 - 05:05 AM.

[Hatachi]

R&R was a fundamentally broken system as it stood. It in no way simulated upkeep of your mech when 75% of the R&R was free. Let's leave out a broken system that in no way helped push towards role divergence, why would anyone, from an income standpoint, want to play an assault anchor to soak damage if you end up paying more in R&R than you would playing a Commando. People would still do it, but be unfairly punished. You can't have a proper back-end system until you have a proper front-end system to make it work. I want a simulation system for mech upkeep. I just want to wait until the game is polished and community warfare is incoming, when it makes a sense to have it. It's like complaining we don't have to spend C-Bills on dropship fuel to go between maps when we have no overworld.

[Bluescuba]

The removal of R&R has really dumbed down the game... there is no risk reward left in the game... leading to cheese fotm mech builds.

Whatever next respawns???

[Mongoose Trueborn]

With R&R or without it, it's the least of this games worries. You guys stress about the wrong stuff.

[Bluescuba]

Mongoose Trueborn, on 24 December 2012 - 05:27 AM, said:

With R&R or without it, it's the least of this games worries. You guys stress about the wrong stuff.

The other stuff you speak about is purely technical/balancing issues... the removal of R&R is a core gameplay issue. Technical and balancing issues can always be tweeked, once core gameplay changes have been crystalised it is near impossible to change them back.

[Loonix]

Bluescuba, on 24 December 2012 - 05:15 AM, said:

The removal of R&R has really dumbed down the game... there is no risk reward left in the game... leading to cheese fotm mech builds.

Whatever next respawns???

I kind of feel DHS and endo-steel dumbed down the game, with an upgrade path that is usually always mandatory. I wouldn't mind seeing a specific repair or general running cost for exotic upgrades like these, since they undeniably make Mechs better and really don't have any downsides as far as I'm concerned. The firepower of "that" Jenner build right now is a little silly and all too common.

A flat running fee of X-thousand C-bills per game, win or lose?

Maybe an exotic running cost for XL engines too? Although in most instances I think the increased vulnerability balances them out.

[Jalak Bali]

R&R made people with premium the only ones capable of fielding very expensive mechs and still get leftover money to save.

[MustrumRidcully]

Bluescuba, on 24 December 2012 - 05:15 AM, said:

The removal of R&R has really dumbed down the game... there is no risk reward left in the game... leading to cheese fotm mech builds.

Whatever next respawns???

The R&R system was dumb in face of how the reward system worked.

Why would a mercenary that brought a 15,000,000 C-Bills Atlas to the fight get just as much payout as someone that brought a 4,000,000 C-Bills Commando to a fight? How is that a reasonable or believable system?

Unless the reward system changes so that more expensive mechs also earn more money than cheap mechs, the system was not very believable. And it hurt the gameplay, as people did farm for their C-Bills so they could eventually get their dream mech and fight real battles with them - unfortunately never getting the "real" battles because others were still farming in trial mechs and possibly actively suiciding, AFKing from the start or hiding in a dark corner and powering down when the combat looks like it may go in the wrong direction.
That's the game we had. What was good about it? Immersive? Realistic? Enjoyable? Smart?

[Bluescuba]

Jalak Bali, on 24 December 2012 - 05:35 AM, said:

R&R made people with premium the only ones capable of fielding very expensive mechs and still get leftover money to save.

This is a lie, whether you have premium, founders, hero mech or non of the proceeding 95% (if not more) you made a profit... when OB started most founders didnt even activate premium so when running non founders mechs we were in the same boat as everyone else. I never was in a position were I could not repair my mech, furthermore I countined to earn c-bills (admittedly at a slower rate).

Now without R&R I make say on average 125k in c-bills per match... in a 2 month's time what am i going to do with the 100s of millions c-bills i accumulate???? I can easily make 5 million c-bills a night 5 x 60 days = 300 million c-bills. How do I earn so much? Because I can run a min max build as there is no risk/reward anymore, no large repair and rearm costs = xl engines artemis missle systems ff armour/endo structure etc etc. Back in the days of R&R their was a risk to running all the exotic equipment now effectively a 6 er ppc stalker costs the same and a commando running 3 x sl and srm6...

That is just crazy.

[Adridos]

Bluescuba, on 24 December 2012 - 05:52 AM, said:

This is a lie, whether you have premium, founders, hero mech or non of the proceeding 95% (if not more) you made a profit... when OB started most founders didnt even activate premium so when running non founders mechs we were in the same boat as everyone else. I never was in a position were I could not repair my mech, furthermore I countined to earn c-bills (admittedly at a slower rate).

Pub stomp much?

No and no, pugs were at a horrific disadvantage due to the unexistent voice com in the game and R&R only made the pubstomps easier, because no pug player could ever use the advanced tech.

Premades, on teh other hand, abused the system to no end and whenever you had remote problems with money, you just drop into a pug and voila, R&R my ***.

[Joseph Mallan]

PANZERBUNNY, on 23 December 2012 - 11:30 PM, said:

I don't care about getting damaged anymore.

Rationalize it for the economy etc, and people rally to its defense, but i has simply made people less cautious than before.

This change has altered the pace of how people play instead of simply changing their income.

I know what you are saying. I am very happy that House Steiner is picking up my full repairs. Feels like actually being in the 10th Lyran Guard.

[Bluescuba]

Adridos, on 24 December 2012 - 05:58 AM, said:

Pub stomp much?

No and no, pugs were at a horrific disadvantage due to the unexistent voice com in the game and R&R only made the pubstomps easier, because no pug player could ever use the advanced tech.

Premades, on teh other hand, abused the system to no end and whenever you had remote problems with money, you just drop into a pug and voila, R&R my ***.

I really hate this pug arguement... playing as a pug is a player's choice, same as playing in a premade. If player X chooses to play pug and player Y chooses to play premade should have no bearing on R&R costs. I am sick of this excuse... im sick of people wanting everying right now and not working for it... WTF even in CoD you have to play for a long time to get the top tier weapons, but here everyone wants to be in the best mech from day one.