108 replies to this topic

[Zero Neutral]

You don't mind taking damage? Lulz. Can I farm c-bills on you?

[KuruptU4Fun]

Darwins Dog, on 24 December 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

But why do I want to hurt them? A bullet to the brain leaves more salvage. I'm not suggesting that everyone go Leeroy Jenkins into battle. A team will be cautious because it's a good strategy, and will help win. The reward system now encourages that. You win and kill everything, you get more money. Why should caution be enforced by the economy through R&R? You don't need the economy to further reinforce a good strategy, it will do that by itself.

Some people will never play with any strategy (remember all the Rambos when R&R was active). Most will start to learn the best way to win/make money/enjoy the game, and that may be to be reckless at times. Mass charging can still work, so why punish it?

Because most of the time that 1 shot to the head will cost you a lot of armor and internal damage to get it. Which means you're most likely only going to get 1 on any given match. Someone else is going to find you easy pickings. Getting more kill assists with more damage nets you as the player more money then someone who gets a straight up 1 on 1 kill. I agree, the current reward system will encourage teamwork, not necessarily encourage players to find teams though unfortunately...

R&R playing requires you to balance builds (especially as a member of a Merc Corp I believe) that have a primary function but also has a backup in case it's needed. I don't have a Streak Cat, I have a Whoosh Cat that Carries an LRM suite and then SSRM's as well. It's a Support mech with ways to save my own butt if needed.

[Loonix]

Ivanzypher, on 24 December 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

Here, bigger is usually better.(aside from lagshielded lights ofc.) An atlas will always beat a Centurion, or a Cataphract. Assuming both pilots are equally skilled. The firepower/armour difference is simply huge. I don't think I've ever lost a 1v1 in my Atlas(except other Atlases), nor do I see it happening to others often.

I don't think people should be forced to drive meds, losing money in assaults used to suck, but there should atleast be an incentive to drive one. I think greater earning potential would be a good incentive.

I hear your points, and well said, but I disagree with the first part of the above. If you are fighting a medium or heavy one on one with an Atlas... the medium/heavy driver is way out of position and not what I would call similarly skilled. The games balance comes down to the currency of tonnage. And in that regard the Atlas arguably has a slight advantage being heavier than any other assault. But classes (and tonnage) balance very well against each other.

Back in closed beta before the netcode went nuts and knockdowns were removed I used to play a lot of lights, and I destroyed many an Atlas single handed. As for mediums, they are team players, and I think many players just play them wrong. Mediums should be sticking as a group or with something heavier, barring a high speed build. A pair of talented medium sticks can run rings around an Atlas and even the odds. My main mech is a centurion which I play as fire support, often teaming up with a friends Atlas. I keep lights at bay and help focus fire when something scary comes round the corner. Occasionally I even use myself as a human shield. I don't get many kills, but many assists, helping the Atlas perform to its optimum. And that's how many a medium should roll IMO.

You are quite right in saying Mediums are the meat and veg of a Mech battle. They are hugely important, performing numerous roles and adapting to the battle, but they are often unsung heroes. And therein lies the problem. Much like WoT many gamers don't seem to have the patience to work with the awkward medium. Hopefully more players will start to realise how satisfying they can be to play.

[PANZERBUNNY]

Ursh, on 24 December 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

The almost complete cessation of afk and suicide farming more or less nullifies any argument in favor of the old R&R system.

For the first time since I've been playing, we're actually seeing a lot of 8vs8 in the pug matches, rather than 8vs6, 7vs5, etc.

Why on earth would a lack of R&R weigh in on afks/suicide farmers?

They are still there.

I think it would be safer to say those people got bored with the game and moved on than any new mechanic introduced or removed from the game.

[Pygar]

PANZERBUNNY, on 23 December 2012 - 11:30 PM, said:

I don't care about getting damaged anymore.

Rationalize it for the economy etc, and people rally to its defense, but i has simply made people less cautious than before.

This change has altered the pace of how people play instead of simply changing their income.

It's also changed how people think about pimping out mechs...

...overall I think I dig it even though I was leery of it to start. Before, even the people who were brawling were really cat and mousing matches to ridiculous points before engagements... now, people don't have to worry about losing money they fight more bravely (usually) and overall it's more fun.

[PANZERBUNNY]

Umm...cat and mousing is all about engagement.

Moving your resources on the board in trying to gain a better position before you engage each other.

That's combat my friend, not what we have now.

What we have now is comedy at best.

[Adridos]

Ivanzypher, on 24 December 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

...heavies actually have downsides in WoT. Here, bigger is usually better.(aside from lagshielded lights ofc.) An atlas will always beat a Centurion, or a Cataphract. Assuming both pilots are equally skilled. The firepower/armour difference is simply huge. I don't think I've ever lost a 1v1 in my Atlas(except other Atlases), nor do I see it happening to others often.

You've never played WoT, obviously. Unless they rewrote the whole game from the ground up in the last month, heavy is THE tank. Lights can't hurt them and mediums drop in one hit.

Here, the exact opposite, lights>heavies>assaluts>mediums, provided that if there was no lagshield, these would even be mostly even.

[PANZERBUNNY]

If a match is fought properly, even if your team is winning, your Atlas will have had massive damage done to it from the other teams Assaults. That's when the Mediums come in to pick you apart and finish the job.

If Meds and light are expecting to dance toe to toe with heavier mechs and win, well, they'd have to be really good, you bad and lucky.

Still better than WOT's no possibility to hurt your betters.

[Pygar]

PANZERBUNNY, on 24 December 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

Umm...cat and mousing is all about engagement.

Moving your resources on the board in trying to gain a better position before you engage each other.

That's combat my friend, not what we have now.

What we have now is comedy at best.

I'm not really seeing a loss of strategy out there really, but I have seen less hide and seek along with a sharp decline in insta rushing. Myself, I'm still looking for the best way for me (and my team) to engage without getting shot to pieces, but having to wait around to find the bad guys less...which is great.

IMO the biggest problem now with matches is lack of tonnage limits or tonnage matching, matches right now seem to be trending towards lots of assault mechs being the meta.

[RG Notch]

Bluescuba, on 24 December 2012 - 05:15 AM, said:

The removal of R&R has really dumbed down the game... there is no risk reward left in the game... leading to cheese fotm mech builds.

Whatever next respawns???

Probably, as well as 3rd person. I say remove heat management entirely and we'll have a huge hit with the causal lowest common denominator player base some folks seem to want.

[Redmond Spiderhammer]

It would be sure nice to hear the dev vision on this one. Where do they see R&R going? How invovled are they willing to make it? There is a lot they could do that would make the whole experience very deep and engaging when combined with community warfare, but that might come at a cost to attracting and keeping new players. I'd honestly like to see a two tier system with regards to a lot of things, R&R included. 'Scrub' match play and CW play. Scrub matches would be for the casual player, minimal R&R, lots of matchmaking options (grouping, equipment, player ranking, etc). You could earn some money and experience that way but they would otherwise be meaningless fun. Then you have the CW level that could have very deep and engaging systems and would be more punishing and thought provoking.

[impaledface]

With r&r gone I can run an xl in my dragon, and possibly a gauss without dying of repair bills. For me the only reason I like r&r is I can purchase an xl without it feeling like I am going bankrupt because of repairs, I would be ok with them re-implementing r&r if they dropped the xl engine repair, or cost so I could at least run it in my dragon. Honestly running a standard on a dragon is so sub par compared to the other heavies, that the dragon will be like before were no one used it, unless they are fang and flame or something.

[Corvus Antaka]

Yeah I miss R&R too. Hopefully it will return soon.

I'm hoping PGI will leave income levels where they are for trial mechs, but buff income for owned mechs by 10% or so to make them earn more and justify R&R, trial mechs are a problem...or maybe trials just need R&R added to them too.

[KuruptU4Fun]

I have a feeling that PGI will explain why they have done with the economy what they have done is on it's way. It's just they're going to wait until they have enough data to make a better step on how it gets re-implemented or what ever changes they've decided to make once they have the data they need. I'm also betting that the next economy change is going to be when CW is introduced.

[Ivanzypher]

Adridos, on 24 December 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

You've never played WoT, obviously. Unless they rewrote the whole game from the ground up in the last month, heavy is THE tank. Lights can't hurt them and mediums drop in one hit.

Here, the exact opposite, lights>heavies>assaluts>mediums, provided that if there was no lagshield, these would even be mostly even.

http://worldoftanks....373-Ivanzypher/

I play WoT regularly actually.(well, until a month or two ago, having a break atm) Heavies really aren't super powerful. A well positioned tank destroyer can pull one apart no problem. As can a well driven medium. The less said about artillery the better. Aside from the odd one(KV-1, IS-3etc.) they are very well balanced against the other tank classes. Unfortunately your average WoT player will drive his sherman head on at a KV-1 and then complain that he lost. It takes alot of skill to use lighter tanks properly, and most people don't seem to possess said skills.

Here, ignoring lights until lagshield is gone, why drive a medium when a heavy is the same speed but with more weapons and armour? The slight maneuoverability increase isn't worth it imo. And again, Assaults can beat pretty much anything in a fight when driven well. It's normally the assaults that have silly amounts of damage/kills/assists. Normally the assaults that lead the charge, and ultimately decide the outcome of a fight. It's usually the team with the more competent assaults, and who support their assaults properly that win the match.

It's true, in both WoT and MWO the biggest mechs/tanks are important, but I'd rather be in an all medium tank company than an all medium lance. The weight classes are very balanced in WoT imo, its just the individual vehicles where balance falls apart.

Regardless, we're getting a bit off topic here. In MWO we need some incentive to drive mediums, as at the moment they are by far the least used class. I feel R&R may be one way to provide that incentive. Seeing as we can't really change the hard stats of the mechs, I don't see many other ways to encourage medium pilots.

[Gaizokubanou]

The light vs assault debate should've been resolved through actual battle based mechanic. Relying on out of combat mechanic (aka this **** poor money sink we had in form of R&R [some form of R&R would be nice... just not what we had before]) so that lights/mediums are the farming mechs and heavy/assault are the "rewards" will kill any fun out of actual combat system because everyone knows who will be more likely to win based on the mech size, and as for teams, whoever has more heavy/assaults once different form of matchmaking comes in. If combat is not fun, then nobody will give a single crap about cbill earning or whatever other metagame that is tied to it because earning Cbill is only fun when you can spend it to do something fun.

Light/medium mechs should earn their keep by being useful in combat... well, they have so much less firepower and armor so how? Simple, make maps bigger with more location based objectives (like conquest mode except imagine taking place in 2 to 4 times larger map) so that their mobility directly translates into the victory condition. Then you will have this nice food chain where assault beats heavy, heavy beats med, med beats light but light is too fast for assault so light ends up outperforming assault on 1v1 basis as far as victory condition goes.

Edited by Gaizokubanou, 24 December 2012 - 01:24 PM.

[PANZERBUNNY]

Objectives where we have to destroy buildings or achieve certain objectives to enable the ability to destroy the core targets for destruction is what many of us are waiting for, not this outdated, rehashed, boring capture and conquest mechanic.

[KuruptU4Fun]

PANZERBUNNY, on 24 December 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

Objectives where we have to destroy buildings or achieve certain objectives to enable the ability to destroy the core targets for destruction is what many of us are waiting for, not this outdated, rehashed, boring capture and conquest mechanic.

Which would be terrible if I went thru an entire match and got everything but 1 med laser or an A/C 2 with only 7 rounds left, and the only one on my team still alive.

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 24 December 2012 - 01:30 PM.

[PANZERBUNNY]

KuruptU4Fun, on 24 December 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

Which would be terrible if I went thru an entire match and got everything but 1 med laser or an A/C 2 with only 7 rounds left, and the only one on my team still alive.

If you are the last one of your team alive and have expended all your ammo or weapons destroyed in an objective destruction map, the game can be coded to simply end the map with victory for your opponents.

The chances of that happening doesn't outweigh the positives for such a game mode.

It also promotes putting more thought into your mech builds. Which is a good thing.

Edited by PANZERBUNNY, 24 December 2012 - 01:40 PM.

[Murphy7]

Lefty Lucy, on 24 December 2012 - 12:38 AM, said:

Earlier today we had to break a stalemate. I was the first mech in and got predictably hammered by focus fire, but lived long enough that the rest of my team could set up to fight effectively. There's no reason I should be penalized for doing what needed to be done.

Unclear on the concept of sacrifice, I see.