108 replies to this topic

[The Exiled]

so in this thread you moan that the lack of RnR causes ill thought out brawling fights becasue there is no consequence and in another you moan players still cap when they should be brawling becasue that makes more cash, interesting

[GalaxyBluestar]

KharnZor, on 24 December 2012 - 01:46 AM, said:

Cant stand it without the R&R. Whats the point without it?
When we had it before you had to be sensible in the way you played unless you could afford the bills but now you can just charge in with a smile because you know it isnt going to cost you a cent.

no it costs you the match cause you did some stupid play and got killed off the bat. which in turn means less cbills earnt. honestly so many people think that every other player has suddenly turned rambo after this when all i've seen in game are people becoming smarter and more adaptive to gameplay. the money side hasn't altered their play, if anything more people are better cause they can now get the gear more suited to their idea of a good build. i'll happily welcome back RnR only when the game itself is devoid of bugs that constantly gets you repair bills you never had a say in avoiding.

[El Penguin]

My slowest paced match that involved tactics in the chat with pubs was with this patch. The game has been playing the same since before. I even noticed less suicide farmers but I think that's unrelated. Anyway, this "everyone is just going to run out and die now" is just an excuse. You can have your opinion, fine, but don't be saying it's ruining the pace of the game. Remember, there was a few months where there was no RnR in the past and people still said the game was a lot of fun and people were still playing to win.

[mattkachu]

Ivanzypher, on 24 December 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

http://worldoftanks....373-Ivanzypher/

lol

In world of tanks, the lower tiers heavies have a slight firepower/ armour advantage oover the cost of mobility. Mediums do well because they have average firepower but can deploy fast. TD's have the most firepower but are not as fast as mediums. There are a few exceptions to these rules, but it holds true most of the time.

This changes at the higher levels. Mediums cant outright box with a heavy the way a jeneer circles an atlas (or ECM raven/commando). The tier 10 competitive clan wars shows an all out "Heavies and arty" mentality with mediums as dedicated scouts or sweep defenders.

Mech warrior has a much better to the balance of classes. Its not perfect, but an assault can even fend off lights. Sure lights have their netcode buff, and ECM makes the best counter (streaks) hard to use on them, but an atlas DDC with his own ECM is a danger to the light, and respect must be given.

I think the choice of ECM mechs make the classes more useful. In 8 man premades, lights and assaults are the most common. Not because they carry ECM effectivly, but because they can carry ECM at all. No heavy has one, and the only med is cicada. If they gave the dragon 1C or hunchback 4SP ECM, you'd see plenty of those too.

We all forget that if lights were always the best, streak pults wouldnt be a problem. Most assaults will easily disarm a catapult within 3-4 salvos, while the catapult cant do the same. Not to say the catapult wont bust up the atlas, but no atlas should ever lose to a 1v1 with a heavy streakboat. Streaks trade their alpha dmg for easymode against lighter mechs.

[Ursh]

PANZERBUNNY, on 24 December 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

Why on earth would a lack of R&R weigh in on afks/suicide farmers?

They are still there.

I think it would be safer to say those people got bored with the game and moved on than any new mechanic introduced or removed from the game.

That's a convenient opinion for your argument, but there is very little evidence to support it. Up until patchday, the afkers and suicide farmers weren't bored with the game. What changed over night that made them bored?

They already weren't playing the game to win, and then magically overnight their free money and xp disappeared. Now they've either quit or actually contribute to the matches.

I think that there is a very strong correlation between the removal of an exploitable mechanic, and the disappearance of those players who were exploiting it.

[wwiiogre]

Panzerbunny,

I don't know about you but I pilot a jenner and since ECM and lag shielded ravens and commandos came in. I have to be super cautious I don't over extend or I die almost instantly. Played right I can survive most matches even sync dropped 8 mans vs pugs.

In reality, most people do not do the right thing in battle. Period or in an emergency for that matter. A simulation of battle probably just proves that point even more in a game. Less than 2% are bred for battle and thrive in a combat environment. A third can get buy and function at generally elevated levels but that leaves almost 2/3 that does not function normally in a combat environment. Meaning, they get rolled, they don't follow simple directions like concentrate fire, they get led by the nose by a light mech turning their back on the real threats his friends. Etc.

If PGI had increased rewards, the net result would still be the same. People would make more money, get charged for RnR but still net profit out about the same. The end result is no negative reinforcement for playing poorly, or just being a normal person in a simulation of combat. Its a game, it should be fun, it should not be a chore or hard work.

Good play and teamwork are reward enough for most players. We will see where this goes in the future. If PGI does this right we could be playing this game or versions of this game for a decade. I hope they get it right, I would like to keep MWO on my hard drive for the long run.

Chris

[MustrumRidcully]

Ivanzypher, on 24 December 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

I find on the rare occasion I use a light mech, I most often die from losing a leg. At which point I'm dead regardless of what gear I have. Then again like I said, I normally use Assaults(Awesome being my favourite) so I'll take your word on lights. Take artemis then. Why would you ever not use it on an LRM based mech? Previously it cost a fortune to run. Now however, all it takes is four tons(easily spared on most LRMboats) for a pretty significant upgrade.

Then maybe the upgrade is too significant and that's it?

Also, are you sure that Artemis is still that great? It has now been changed to supposedly only work on line-of-sight targets. That means it is a lot less interesting for LRM boats. For SRM boats, it still is, but adding 1 ton to a 3 ton weapon is a pretty hefty investment, and the benefit isn't that significant. I think it's worth one ton per weapon, but it wouldn't be worth much more.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 25 December 2012 - 04:08 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

PANZERBUNNY, on 24 December 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

Why on earth would a lack of R&R weigh in on afks/suicide farmers?

Because it doesn't earn you as much C-Bills as it used to.
That's pretty much the key thing that the R&R change affected. You get more money by fighting then by sitting around idly.

What remains in suiciders and AFKers are either idiots or people with bad luck. No longer people that are trying to make a buck for their dream mech the fastest way possible.

[Furmansky]

Guys, majority did agree that R&R was flawed and needed considerable or smaller changes... there was no question about it. But dropping R&R totally is just wrong decision. How I felt after that I could describe as:

SELLER:Hey we are desingnig a sport car, good old school stuff... without many electronic thingies and it will have manual gearbox. This is what we and you want, there might be design changes there and there but we want to stick to original idea... might not suit every one, it wont be common go and drive. You guys interested?
ME: Hell yeah I wanted to have that good old fashioned sport car of my dream... take my money...
SELLER LATER: Well we have a problem with that gearbox and think that fixing it will take too much time resources and it will be easier and better for everyone if we will just put automatic... it will appeal to more crowd as well
ME: Well it might be easier and better for every one, but I wanted a manual sport car guys... otherwise I would buy myself cheaper WOT Honda or something... wait I already have it, don't need same thing in different skin. And my WOT Honda is very good as it is, I dont think you guys might compete on same ground with it. I'm not saying it might be even very bad Idea but this meant to be an oldschool sports car you advertised not a new WOT Honda. New crowd OK hell we need it but what about me and the old crowd that want manual gearbox and we already invested in you. Do you don't need or care about us anymore?

Edited by Furmansky, 26 December 2012 - 06:29 AM.

[Furmansky]

MustrumRidcully, on 25 December 2012 - 04:10 AM, said:

What remains in suiciders and AFKers are either idiots or people with bad luck. No longer people that are trying to make a buck for their dream mech the fastest way possible.

So it's the same as it was beefore... and people will always try to make a buck for their dream mech the fastest way possible...

[MustrumRidcully]

Furmansky, on 26 December 2012 - 06:37 AM, said:

So it's the same as it was beefore... and people will always try to make a buck for their dream mech the fastest way possible...

But the fastest way possible is no longer suicide or AFK farming. It's fighting. That's what we want. People shooting at each other. That makes a serious difference.

[Jetfire]

Until CW RnR makes no sense. I am glad to see it gone and the farmers/AFK's largely gone with it. You still have a reason to not take damage... the whole not blowing up thing. I swear it's like you think Mario would not have succeeded because it didn't charge you $5 every time you fell in a hole.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

PANZERBUNNY, on 23 December 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

I guess I'm on the wrong wave length.

Panzer, the first part of my sig seems to be the wavelength the devs are on man

[kilgor]

In the military of the Houses, you joined the ranks of the dispossessed if your 'Mech got shot out from under you unless you happened to be a very good pilot or your family had influence and money. This is why Assault 'Mechs were given to elite units and high ranking officers while most 'Mech regiments consisted of Light and Medium 'Mechs. R&R reflected that reasoning because your primary 'Mech probably should be a Light or Medium 'Mech until you had the money to finance your Assault's R&R. And yes, Assaults should get more of the share of the money, but it should also be based on damage done as well, so farmers don't buy Assaults and sit and do nothing.

[Furmansky]

MustrumRidcully, on 27 December 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

But the fastest way possible is no longer suicide or AFK farming. It's fighting. That's what we want. People shooting at each other. That makes a serious difference.

Well I tend to disagree. I test it just a sec ago...
It is one time I tried it and will never do it again...
I took a Stalker trial and DC'd... ( well sorry guys who ever was in my team, will never do it on purpose again... looking at my victory count my team still won though )
Earned exactly 51318 C-Bills 15 GXP and 153XP on that variant.
Well that was much more than I expected...

Yes it is not much you can say with good match I can get at least from 70000 to 150000 C-Bills without premium, but when we lost badly my worst was 30000 something...

I'm always fighting as best as I can ( sometimes fail miserably... true ) and in 95% stay till end of the match to see how I did and if we won.
Now, I have 4 trials and 10 mechs that I own with no repair cost meaning I could do 14 separate drops every 45 seconds. I could do that bulls**t constantly and earn constant flow of C-Bills GXP an XP without absolutely no hassle.

If you think problem is sorted... good for you then, but I don't think so... I still see plenty disconnects as I have seen before ( true can't tell if it is farming or crashes, but we couldn't see that before as well ) and with assumed average let say 6-7 minute games I think I can earn about on average let say roughly 100000? ( this is just roughly ) Now a farmer in 6-7 minutes, how many drops he can do 6, 7 ,8... more? what will be minimum he can earn at least 25000 a match...? Do the math my friend.
If I am wrong you can correct me Sir.

And yes I know i'ts beta, we all knew R&R was broken and needed to be fixed... But R&R was just dropped, removed, with no warning, propper explanation, or stating it is temporary measure... This is not something I think shouldn't be done without at least informing the player base, don't you think...? broken or not it was still quite big part of the game.

Edited by Furmansky, 27 December 2012 - 12:24 PM.

[Erasus Magnus]

mattkachu, on 23 December 2012 - 11:48 PM, said:

Cautious? We're stomping robots, not walking down Jane & Finch after 9pm.

Lets face it, people that WRE going to charge headlong into battle to die in seconds STILL charge headlong into battle to die in seconds. Staying alive means you can do more damage as the battle rages on, this is our incentive to make more money. I didnt lose any sleep over the earnings i pull in now. It just made the game easier for people who may or may not ahve a brain tumour.

Now people cant complain bad less optimal builds like Artemis LRM atlas with 10 tons of ammo was making them file for chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.

Sad but true. Instead of learning how to make a decent build, they allow people to try the most expensive things. Because if they didnt, people would cry that running said Art atlas was P2W, because only a premium founder could pull money in and lose.

Think about that. People crying its P2W, because "i LOSE a battle in a bad mech layout with the most expensive stuff that c-bills can buy and lose money". It SHOULD be like that! Maybe ill hang around Finch st. just a little longer...

thats a bit harsh. i was ( and still play and have great fun while doing) riding an atlas with 2 lrm20a and 2 large laser and a standard engine. i havent used my founders premium time yet and pre r&r removal my rearm costs were absurd. and i dindnt go with the cheese way by not rearming at all and getting 75% free ammo because that just felt wrong to me from day one.

that has nothing to do with suboptimal builds. if the maintenance costs for a weapon system are so high that they are barely viable for the non premium player, its basically pay 2 win. or at least pay2 play (this particular wep. sys.). and i dont see the logic in having such a weapon system in this game. if lrms would be game breaking, perhaps, that high killing capacity comes with the price of extremely high costs, but lrms arent like that (anymore, in my pov, they only were when they introduced artemis).

and these high rearm cost hurt the so called "suboptimal builds" (that are canon, btw, see basically all cat configs except the k2 or the longbow or the stalker)

Edit: However, imo, the dropping of r&r wasnt the best move. they should have lowered the costs on rearming, get rid of the aotorearm for free, same with the autorepair freebee thing and go from there.

Edited by Erasus Magnus, 27 December 2012 - 12:26 PM.

[J0anna]

What's actually funny to me is that once they took away R&R, I realized that it adds nothing to the game. Really, we'd click a button for repair, and uncheck "re-arm", then click another 2 buttons to accept. Sorry, but it really added nothing to the game. Besides, if you lost badly, you'd just run a trial mech or two and be ahead again.

[jshill78]

I never paid attention to R&R costs before the patch. No change. They weren't generally high enough that anyone would care. It's fake money... so what if you're in the red with R&R costs. Play a little more and it all comes back. Activate premium time and you get more cbills than you can spend.

[MustrumRidcully]

Furmansky, on 27 December 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:

Well I tend to disagree. I test it just a sec ago...
It is one time I tried it and will never do it again...
I took a Stalker trial and DC'd... ( well sorry guys who ever was in my team, will never do it on purpose again... looking at my victory count my team still won though )
Earned exactly 51318 C-Bills 15 GXP and 153XP on that variant.
Well that was much more than I expected...

Yes it is not much you can say with good match I can get at least from 70000 to 150000 C-Bills without premium, but when we lost badly my worst was 30000 something...

I'm always fighting as best as I can ( sometimes fail miserably... true ) and in 95% stay till end of the match to see how I did and if we won.
Now, I have 4 trials and 10 mechs that I own with no repair cost meaning I could do 14 separate drops every 45 seconds. I could do that bulls**t constantly and earn constant flow of C-Bills GXP an XP without absolutely no hassle.

If you think problem is sorted... good for you then, but I don't think so... I still see plenty disconnects as I have seen before ( true can't tell if it is farming or crashes, but we couldn't see that before as well ) and with assumed average let say 6-7 minute games I think I can earn about on average let say roughly 100000? ( this is just roughly ) Now a farmer in 6-7 minutes, how many drops he can do 6, 7 ,8... more? what will be minimum he can earn at least 25000 a match...? Do the math my friend.
If I am wrong you can correct me Sir.

And yes I know i'ts beta, we all knew R&R was broken and needed to be fixed... But R&R was just dropped, removed, with no warning, propper explanation, or stating it is temporary measure... This is not something I think shouldn't be done without at least informing the player base, don't you think...? broken or not it was still quite big part of the game.

Well, admittedly, it may not be sorted completely yet. But it's far better than before, when fighting didn't really guarantee you more income, but it definitely guaranteed you repair cost cutting into your profits, and the C-Bill-grinding optimzied way was to cap-rush and hope it worked out (but if it didn't, at least there were no repair cost.)

[Carnivoris]

Honestly, it was like that at first for me but I find myself trying to avoid taking damage more now than ever before. I'm now hellbent on doing as much damage as possible so that I can get more rewards. That means I have to stay alive longer. Sure, no one's losing money now and ridiculous builds are now usable without you going bankrupt but it takes a HELL of a long time to earn enough cbills for a mech 25k at a time.