96 replies to this topic

[TopDawg]

PGI, I strongly urge you to consider making it so that Hero Mechs do not have unique hardpoint layouts. I suggest you offer a C-Bill variant that has the same hardpoint layout as the Hero Mechs, but does not have the unique skin or 30% C-Bill bonus (or name I suppose, too).

As someone who has the Ilya, Fang, and Flame (Dragons for life!), I think PGI has already crossed the threshold of 'pay for advantage' with the Ilya and the Flame; perhaps even the Yen-Lo. The Yen-Lo and Fang do not offer any overt advantage over their counterparts (although the Yen-Lo is the only Centurion able to mount an AC/20 in its arm). However the Ilya and Flame not only offer very unique possibilities and flexibility, but very strong possibilities that its other chassis just can't do.

I'm not advocating changing the hardpoints unless they offer a refund of MC, as changing the product after it is purchased is just a bad way to go about it all the way around. But as I said above, I am advocating that the hardpoints not be unique only to Hero Mechs.

[J4ckInthebox]

Quote

However the Ilya and Flame not only offer very unique possibilities and flexibility, but very strong possibilities that its other chassis just can't do.

May I ask wich ones ?

[TopDawg]

J4ckInthebox, on 24 December 2012 - 04:49 AM, said:

May I ask wich ones ?

I specifically had in mind the triple UAC/5s in the Ilya and the four Large Lasers in the Flame (two in each arm, which could also be [ER]PPCs when the heat fixes come). I'm not sure the AC/20 is a huge advantage on a Dragon, although it does offer the rather large flexibility I mentioned.

[Rodder]

TopDawg, on 24 December 2012 - 04:47 AM, said:

although the Yen-Lo is the only Centurion able to mount an AC/20 in its arm

You can build YLW if you dont use an AC20. You even get a bettter arm twist. You dont get the painting and the 30%, thats all.

I am running a gauss, 2 med puls lasers and DHS for farming. 3-6 assists per game and allmost everytime 1-2 kills are more effective than the rush of killing an Atlas with an AC20.

[Krondor]

And the tradeoff in the Flame is you lose the fully actuated heavy ballistic.

[CDLord HHGD]

They do need to bring the AH back. More variation, not less. People will still pay for YLW for the mentioned paint job and bonus. Give us the AH back!

[Togar]

Fully agreed.

[Joseph Mallan]

cdlord, on 24 December 2012 - 05:28 AM, said:

They do need to bring the AH back. More variation, not less. People will still pay for YLW for the mentioned paint job and bonus. Give us the AH back!

It is not so much the variation that we are paying for if we Buy YLW. It is the story behind it. The TT crowd have been able to have YLW since Justin was on Solaris.

But I support your idea that Hero Mechs do not need to be "Special" designs. Davis McCall's Highlander is a standard build, What makes it special is that it is Davis McCall's ride and it has the Royal Black Watch Crest and Tartan. The Machine isn't the Hero the Pilot was.

[Bluescuba]

Krondor, on 24 December 2012 - 05:24 AM, said:

And the tradeoff in the Flame is you lose the fully actuated heavy ballistic.

With the screwed up convergence when trying to lead a target with an arm balistic I do not see that as a trade off... the high mounted torso ballistic in my view is better.

[Ryolacap]

I would love to see the ability to make your own hero mech once you mastered leveled your mech, it would have to abide by certain guidelines but perhaps add change a hardpoint, engine size, etc. All with limitations of course.

[SamizdatCowboy]

ugh... I know I'm dense but I actually didn't realize they were unique variants. I thought they were just normal variants with a paint job and a cbill bonus.

I haven't been paying that much attention to the Hero mechs just cause they're so overpriced, and I never really considered buying them. I figured that yeah, they're overpriced, but at least I can still earn those variants in game if I want to (sans paint job and cbill bonus of course)... obviously not.

The more I think about this the more it is ******* me off. We need to rage about this because imo this is a red line that will break the game long term.

ALL mech hardpoint variants should be available to earn via CBills. 'Hero' mechs should ONLY give you a custom paint job and a CBill bonus.

W. T. F. isn't this F2P 101?

Edited by SamizdatCowboy, 24 December 2012 - 06:32 AM.

[Bluescuba]

SamizdatCowboy, on 24 December 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

ugh... I know I'm dense but I actually didn't realize they were unique variants. I thought they were just normal variants with a paint job and a cbill bonus.

I haven't been paying that much attention to the Hero mechs just cause they're so overpriced, and I never really considered buying them. I figured that yeah, they're overpriced, but at least I can still earn those variants in game if I want to (sans paint job and cbill bonus of course)... obviously not.

The more I think about this the more it is ******* me off. We need to rage about this because imo this is a red line that will break the game long term.

ALL mech hardpoint variants should be available to earn via CBills. 'Hero' mechs should ONLY be give you a custom paint job and a CBill bonus.

W. T. F. isn't this F2P 101?

You do realise that for flame and fang the hardpoints are exactly the same as the standard variants the only difference is that they are moved to different locations. So please cry less this is not p2w.

[SamizdatCowboy]

Bluescuba, on 24 December 2012 - 06:34 AM, said:

You do realise that for flame and fang the hardpoints are exactly the same as the standard variants the only difference is that they are moved to different locations. So please cry less this is not p2w.

Then don't sell those variants period. Did I say p2w? I've killed plenty of Ilya's and fang/flame's, it's not about p2w it's about trying to force users to spend money.

[Bluescuba]

SamizdatCowboy, on 24 December 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

Then don't sell those variants period. Did I say p2w? I've killed plenty of Ilya's and fang/flame's, it's not about p2w it's about trying to force users to spend money.

Yes it is about money and PGI needs money so what is your point, unless you just want to play for free. I am happier to pay for hero mechs than to pay for paint and camo designs (continuously, im happy to pay for these once).

[TANTE EMMA]

the heromechs until now are garbage...only the ILYA is valid. the rest has nice paintjobs, but the chassis are so seldomly used and absolutely trash when it comes down to competitive play.

[Havyek]

SamizdatCowboy, on 24 December 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

Then don't sell those variants period. Did I say p2w? I've killed plenty of Ilya's and fang/flame's, it's not about p2w it's about trying to force users to spend money.

So your problem isn't that you see the Hero 'Mechs as P2W, it's that PGI is trying to make money to pay their staff and expenses that they incur for us to play this game that you do not have to pay for?

[Rift Hawk]

SamizdatCowboy, on 24 December 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

Then don't sell those variants period. Did I say p2w? I've killed plenty of Ilya's and fang/flame's, it's not about p2w it's about trying to force users to spend money.

You realize of course that companies that don't make money, end up with less updates and eventually no updates. You can't run a company without money and a logical way to make money in a game like this is to provide people with a small optional advantage. That advantage being the C-bill boost and different hardpoint layout of the Hero mechs. If people are willing to pay for them, they have one more mech to choose from (or two). I'm sorry that you feel that its a disadvantage to other players but in reality its not. They aren't extremely over powered and they die just as easily as other mechs. You either pay for it or you don't. If you choose not to thats fine but if you do, your money is going to help this become a better game and to me, thats worth the high cost of these mechs. At least we aren't paying 70$ for a tank, like the lowe in WoT.

[Elizander]

SamizdatCowboy, on 24 December 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

Then don't sell those variants period. Did I say p2w? I've killed plenty of Ilya's and fang/flame's, it's not about p2w it's about trying to force users to spend money.

First of all, I do agree that they should make no-skin, no-30% bonus, no-name, boring drab dull grey colored 'hero' mechs for maybe 5x-10x the c-bill costs (40m-50m or even more) or make them unlockable with some sort of achievement system (get to buy the YLW if you Master 3 Cents and get them all to 300k EXP each and still no skin/bonuses) or both.

Having stated that, there is nothing wrong with enticing people to pay for the product/service you provide. If the issue is not P2W then there is nothing wrong with wanting people to pay money. A department store doesn't open up just to give you free air conditioning and a place to window shop. They want you to buy stuff too. If it's not P2W then how are people 'forced' into spending for it? If it's not needed then there is no need to buy it, right?

[SamizdatCowboy]

Spoiler

Bluescuba, on 24 December 2012 - 06:40 AM, said:

Yes it is about money and PGI needs money so what is your point, unless you just want to play for free. I am happier to pay for hero mechs than to pay for paint and camo designs (continuously, im happy to pay for these once).

BDU Havoc, on 24 December 2012 - 06:48 AM, said:

So your problem isn't that you see the Hero 'Mechs as P2W, it's that PGI is trying to make money to pay their staff and expenses that they incur for us to play this game that you do not have to pay for?

Imperial X, on 24 December 2012 - 06:49 AM, said:

You realize of course that companies that don't make money, end up with less updates and eventually no updates. You can't run a company without money and a logical way to make money in a game like this is to provide people with a small optional advantage. That advantage being the C-bill boost and different hardpoint layout of the Hero mechs. If people are willing to pay for them, they have one more mech to choose from (or two). I'm sorry that you feel that its a disadvantage to other players but in reality its not. They aren't extremely over powered and they die just as easily as other mechs. You either pay for it or you don't. If you choose not to thats fine but if you do, your money is going to help this become a better game and to me, thats worth the high cost of these mechs. At least we aren't paying 70$ for a tank, like the lowe in WoT.

Elizander, on 24 December 2012 - 06:57 AM, said:

First of all, I do agree that they should make no-skin, no-30% bonus, no-name, boring drab dull grey colored 'hero' mechs for maybe 5x-10x the c-bill costs (40m-50m or even more) or make them unlockable with some sort of achievement system (get to buy the YLW if you Master 3 Cents and get them all to 300k EXP each and still no skin/bonuses) or both.

Having stated that, there is nothing wrong with enticing people to pay for the product/service you provide. If the issue is not P2W then there is nothing wrong with wanting people to pay money. A department store doesn't open up just to give you free air conditioning and a place to window shop. They want you to buy stuff too. If it's not P2W then how are people 'forced' into spending for it? If it's not needed then there is no need to buy it, right?

Man I can't believe you guys are so completely missing my point. My problem is not that they're trying to make money, it's that they're willing to break the game to make money.

I have been an ardent supporter of certain game features that are nothing more than guaranteed revenue streams for PGI, such as mech bays and XP -> GXP conversion.

I also fully support 'boosters' that increase CBill collection like Premium time.

And obviously, if users want to throw down real money to instantly get a mech that would otherwise take a week to earn via CBills, god bless.

These are all aspects of a correctly implemented 'Pay to Progress' scheme. You are paying for convenience and time.

I originally thought the Hero mechs were simply another form of CBill boosters, just like the Founders mechs which are standard variants with a paint job and a 25% CBill bonus.

But by restricting playable items via a pay wall, you are breaking the underlying foundation that 'everything is available if you're willing to put in the time.' That is where the Free in Free to Play comes from. So now instead of Free to Play you have 'kind of' Free to Play. Guess what? 'kind of' Free to Play tends to p i s s off users (for example me) when they suddenly hit that pay wall, and in the long run you diminish your player base.

Heck I was planning on getting a Hero variant eventually, if I saw one that really appealed to me (if they had a 4SP Hero I'd get it today)... just for the CBill boost! They didn't need a friggin pay wall to convince me.

Again, the problem is that they're segmenting the game between 'free' and 'pay.' Everything should be available to free players and paying should only be about convenience and saving time.

Btw, ya'll need to watch the Penny Arcade vid on F2P:
http://penny-arcade....crotransactions

The bit at 3:22 is especially relevant to our discussion here.

Edited by SamizdatCowboy, 24 December 2012 - 07:45 AM.

[Krondor]

Bluescuba, on 24 December 2012 - 05:58 AM, said:

With the screwed up convergence when trying to lead a target with an arm balistic I do not see that as a trade off... the high mounted torso ballistic in my view is better.

Drop an LBX in the arm with a pair of SSRMs and use it to hunt light mechs. Tons of fun

Well, it was when you encountered lights other than ECM'd ravens lol.