96 replies to this topic

[Tvae]

I'm yet to see a counter to the point that releasing variants for money only will actually result in a loss of sales.

Think about it. They've stated specifically that they don't want the game to be P2W. Okay, so any Hero mech the release must then be, at best, perfectly balanced. But perfect balance, although a noble goal, is never a truly feasible goal - in any situation, one mech will always perform slightly better than another, even if that divide comes down to personal preference. If there's even one player who plays better with the layout only available for real money than one available for free, then the mech must be considered P2W, at least for that one player.

So, assuming this is accounted for, all mechs then must be at most balanced - which means that they must be less than balanced, since complete balanced isn't plausible. This means that players who only choose mechs for their strengths will no longer buy these mechs - if they only play the best, why would they play a gimped Hero mech? They aren't competitive, so no reason to. The only reason would be for the C-Bill boost and skin, and only people who buy it for those reasons are the ones who will buy it in the current system. (Or people who just want to collect all the hero mechs, but they would buy it anyways, so this is a moot point).

So, there you have it. By making money-only variants that are specifically not intended to be P2W, they are actually costing themselves sales.

All hero mechs should have free variants without the unique skins, boosts and backstories. If they want to create a new variant to do so, that's cool, but making a completely new variant which isn't available for free? That's just asking for problems in the games economy.

Edited by Tvae, 24 December 2012 - 12:25 PM.

[Ryvucz]

TopDawg, on 24 December 2012 - 04:55 AM, said:

I specifically had in mind the triple UAC/5s in the Ilya ...

The 4x can mount quad UAC/5s

[Pygar]

Hi, My name is Pygar and I am a Flame abuser....

Kidding aside, I'd say the p2w win part of Flame is more about the C-bill boost than it is about anything else. I run the same weapons on it as I do the rest of my Dragons, and while having the torso cannon is nice, I don't know if it's really "uber" or "imba". (The nice part for me is the cannon seems to gets shot up less) Even if somebody puts an AC/20 on one, what does it make the mech then?... a 60 ton Hunchback basically....which is cool, but not exactly the most devastating thing walking around the battlefields right now- there's plenty of Hunchy pilots that would just tell you to keep the x-tra 10 tons, they don't need 'em.

Edited by Pygar, 24 December 2012 - 12:40 PM.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Tvae while I understand your point there are different ways to go about creating "balance" as you're suggesting. Sometimes it's with money, sometimes it with finding a min/max build and exploiting it, other times it's finding a build that works wonderfully with the way you play.

This game isn't about balance, but imperfect balance. Check out this video, it helped me to understand that concept.

http://www.youtube.c...d&v=e31OSVZF77w

If PGI did decide to offer mechs that have the same hard points and designs as hero mechs. Odds are you'd be paying MC to get those too, PGI still needs the money either way.

[Corvus Antaka]

I agree. Hero skins & heroize your mech and having current hero mechs buyable with cbills but not giving the 30% income bonus should be added.

[Tvae]

KuruptU4Fun, on 24 December 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

Tvae while I understand your point there are different ways to go about creating "balance" as you're suggesting. Sometimes it's with money, sometimes it with finding a min/max build and exploiting it, other times it's finding a build that works wonderfully with the way you play.

This game isn't about balance, but imperfect balance. Check out this video, it helped me to understand that concept.

http://www.youtube.c...d&v=e31OSVZF77w

If PGI did decide to offer mechs that have the same hard points and designs as hero mechs. Odds are you'd be paying MC to get those too, PGI still needs the money either way.

Oh don't worry, I understand the concept of perfect imbalance perfectly (or rather, imperfectly, if you will). The issue still exists that, if you have a section of this imbalance scheme that is only available with real money, it still creates issues.

I really intend to stop using the term 'pay to win' because, really, that is never the goal in a situation such as this. I get that, and it's possible to get possible to perfect imbalance than to perfect balance (or at least, easier to make a perfect system that is still enjoyable. As said in the video, perfect balance tends to create stale play).

The issue is, having part of the gameplay only available with real money is, on a more basic level, as bad as pay to win, even if it isn't (pay to win). It can almost be described as 'pay to play', if you will. Imagine if you will (horrible example incoming) a situation where there was an alternate chess piece which was only available if you paid money to use (even if you made the chess set yourself so the game itself was free, that piece would cost you money to use). Even if you had to swap out your knight or bishop to use that piece, and that piece was perfectly imbalanced, the concept of having a piece that is only available with money just feels... wrong.

Edited by Tvae, 24 December 2012 - 12:53 PM.

[Bluescuba]

Noakei Siegel, on 24 December 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

of course you can, because the dragon is such a garbagemech, that most pilots/teams take care of the real threats before taking care of that clownmech, but go ahead...I know nothing...

[redacted]

I have a solid k/d w/l so I dont need to lie... [redacted]

Edited by Niko Snow, 24 December 2012 - 01:51 PM.

[KuruptU4Fun]

There was another video I had seen about microtransactions made by that group that had given me more information on your standpoint. Apparently over in Korea they feel that any object should be achievable thru money or grind in their games. To some degree I would agree with that, with the exception of this one argument. Americans find grinding more annoying than paying for something, it's the way we are, period. So since both are a part of this game anyways, which is really the best way of going about it? Investing in premium time hands down, the second, but no longer available is obviously the Founders program we both have. IMO paying for a HM that you will get tired of fast is a far greater loss money wise than investing in even a weeks worth of Prem. Time., but people just need to realize that.

Yes, putting a line in the sand between paying players and F2P players will kill this game quickly. But occasionally putting a toe in the water (like Hero mechs) isn't going to do any irrevocable harm. It may have been a mistake with the YLW and removing one variant to make way with it. So far they haven't made it again, I expect they won't. But what I do feel is that every tier of mechs should have a set price of MC for them. Not the difference between an IM and the F/F currently have.

Though it will never catch on, I think what you and I are both thinking is called: "Pay to Quicken"

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 24 December 2012 - 01:13 PM.

[TANTE EMMA]

Bluescuba, on 24 December 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

You are an arse...

I have a solid k/d w/l so I dont need to lie... clearly from what you have written know little about the game and most probably pilot whatever mech you choose badly.... anyway its clear you are a troll so ****.

Affirmative. I am an arse. I min/max and I like to crush my opponents.

Your posts make clear that you have no clue who we are and what is a solid K/D W/L ratio? 80% up? 5.00 up?

[TopDawg]

Ryvucz, on 24 December 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

The 4x can mount quad UAC/5s

You can't because of the upper and lower arm actuators (actually you still couldn't because of the shoulder anyway).

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 24 December 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

I agree. Hero skins & heroize your mech and having current hero mechs buyable with cbills but not giving the 30% income bonus should be added.

I'm not advocating that though.

I was simply saying that the Ilya and Flame, while not pay to win, do seem like a 'pay for advantage' due to hardpoint layouts (and again, I own the Ilya, Fang, and Flame); which could be entirely avoided/negated if they simply did not have unique hardpoints.

Although part of the reason for the Muromets is simply due to how strong the UAC/5 currently is (shameless plug for my feedback thread to perhaps better balance it). The Flame is just a really strong variant due to it's hardpoints and locations, but again, isn't necessarily pay to win. Most people seem to think they are fine though, which is great I guess. I'm just concerned that PGI is, and has to, carefully and continually toe the line here.

As for the Dragon arguments (my favorite chassis!), whenever a drop limit is introduced and when ECM is more refined, I think that's when the true meta game will emerge due to things being more closely balanced (and then being better able to balance it from that point).

[Ryvucz]

TopDawg, on 24 December 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

You can't because of the upper and lower arm actuators (actually you still couldn't because of the shoulder anyway).

Ah, must have been thinking the AC/5, my bad.

It's what I get for posting without the client up. '(^.^)'

[TopDawg]

Ryvucz, on 24 December 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

Ah, must have been thinking the AC/5, my bad.

It's what I get for posting without the client up. '(^.^)'

No worries. My 4X is running the 4x AC/2 setup, and dual Gauss prior to that; except there seems to be a bug with the fire rate of the AC/2s currently.

[sgt scout]

I fully disagree with the OP, the hero mechs are in no way OP and therfore not game breaking. They just offer different hard point load outs like you mentioned in your post. More variety does not brake the game.

A Hero mech offers the player to pay for a unique mech and therfor a unique play experience. The mechs are in no way better or wors than varients we can create oureslves and to pay MC for merly a skin and 30% bonus is a silly thing to ask. Those willing to pay for a hero mech get exactly what they pay for, a mech that is unique among the free chassies.

A custemised centurion/dragon/cataphrct can match the hero mechs in every possible way.

Have you been on other so called F2P games ?????? Offering a chassie for MC is NOTHING to what these other P2W games do.

This post is by someone with no hero mechs.

.........yet

[HRR Insanity]

Ryvucz, on 24 December 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

The 4x can mount quad UAC/5s

2UAC5 and 2ACs... yes. The Muromets is the only CTF that will take 3 UACs.

Edited by HRR Insanity, 24 December 2012 - 02:17 PM.

[Ryvucz]

HRR Insanity, on 24 December 2012 - 02:15 PM, said:

2UAC5 and 2ACs... yes. The Muromets is the only CTF that will take 3 UACs.

Scroll up from this post by 3.

[HRR Insanity]

Ryvucz, on 24 December 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

Scroll up from this post by 3.

/shrugs/ Responded to the cached thread from earlier today.

Point remains... the Muromets is just plain better than other CTF in that regard and it's only available with MC/cash.

That's not a good way to balance the game.

[TopDawg]

sgt scout, on 24 December 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

I fully disagree with the OP, the hero mechs are in no way OP and therfore not game breaking. They just offer different hard point load outs like you mentioned in your post. More variety does not brake the game.

A Hero mech offers the player to pay for a unique mech and therfor a unique play experience. The mechs are in no way better or wors than varients we can create oureslves and to pay MC for merly a skin and 30% bonus is a silly thing to ask. Those willing to pay for a hero mech get exactly what they pay for, a mech that is unique among the free chassies.

A custemised centurion/dragon/cataphrct can match the hero mechs in every possible way.

Have you been on other so called F2P games ?????? Offering a chassie for MC is NOTHING to what these other P2W games do.

This post is by someone with no hero mechs.

.........yet

I question whether you actually read the OP (original post). I never said they were OP (overpowered), nor that they were game breaking. I said that I already own three of the four Hero Mechs (the Ilya, Fang, and Flame, which were purchased the day they each came out, and in that order).



What I did say, and to quote myself, "As someone who has the Ilya, Fang, and Flame (Dragons for life!), I think PGI has already crossed the threshold of 'pay for advantage' with the Ilya and the Flame; perhaps even the Yen-Lo. The Yen-Lo and Fang do not offer any overt advantage over their counterparts (although the Yen-Lo is the only Centurion able to mount an AC/20 in its arm). However the Ilya and Flame not only offer very unique possibilities and flexibility, but very strong possibilities that its other chassis just can't do."

I go on to say in another post, from this thread, "Although part of the reason for the Muromets is simply due to how strong the UAC/5 currently is (shameless plug for my feedback thread to perhaps better balance it). The Flame is just a really strong variant due to it's hardpoints and locations, but again, isn't necessarily pay to win. Most people seem to think they are fine though, which is great I guess. I'm just concerned that PGI is, and has to, carefully and continually toe the line here."

I dunno how else to say it lol, but you probably aren't going to take the time to read this anyway.

[Zerbob]

In my experience I've never spotted a Hero 'Mech in the game and then thought "oh crap, we need to bring that thing down fast or else we're screwed" however I have thought about that about other 'Mechs (see: Streakcat pre-ECM).

The Hero Mechs are balanced, and for the people who are going "THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS, THEY SHOULDN"T BE UNIQUE VARIANTS!!!!" let me counter with this. Look at what you get, different hard point configuration, unique skin, C-Bill boost. That's it. Now the C-Bill boost in the long run isn't really that much. Heck, once a 'Mech is fully outfitted your effective costs of that 'Mech are no zero (until repair and rearm is reintroduced, if ever). Unique skin: Well duh, you want your unique 'Mech to stand out! Doesn't affect gameplay in the slightest. As for the unique set up, this is the real reason you're buying these 'Mechs.

The unique hard point configuration is the flavour of the 'Mech, the reason you're truly interested in buying it. It's something new, something different, and allows for different customization on that 'Mech chassis. Are any of them broken, I wouldn't say so. A point was raised that the Yen-Lo-Wang was broken because it can fit an arm mounted AC/20. We had the -AH in beta, and I'll be honest, they weren't rampant, let alone overly common. You'd say them maybe every other game, that was about it (compare this to the Streakcat which we could all say was broken where there'd be 3 per team many games). The Fang and Flame are just stock Dragons with the weapons in new locations, nothing game breaking I would say. They can be used to good effect, but require good pilots to do so (which really can be said of any 'Mech).

The big issue seems to be people's reaction to the Ilya Muromets and it's capability to fit 3x UAC/5s or dual gauss. This is a 'Mech that can boast serious firepower but that seems to be what most players focus on, it's damage output. Consider the cost though that the Ilya Muromets has to have in order to run such builds. First of all it cannot fit a fast engine, I've never gone "Wow, that is a FAST IM!". They're slow and hulking, making them easy pickings for small fast 'Mechs if separated from the group. Secondly correct me if I'm wrong, but they fit XL engines. Now you can kill them by taking out a side torso, combined with slow speed, they're not tough to kill from behind. Thirldy, the Cataphract is not by any means a small 'Mech. It has one of the broadest front profiles in the game, AND one of the easiest to hit cockpits. So it's slow, big, and usually fits weapons for targeting larger 'Mechs. It's fitted for counter large 'Mechs, which many players like to play at the moment, giving the illusion of over powered-ness. Is it really though? I wouldn't say so. I certainly haven't had the impulse to buy one and by my Founders tag you know I have the MC to do it.

[Monky]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's unique hardpoints/capabilities behind a paywall that matters for game balance.

let the hero mechs keep the 30% bonus, the unique paintjobs, the backstory and all that. That is something entirely valid to pay money for, and every poll I've seen says it's the main buy reason for hero mechs anyways. Getting unique hardpoints, while in some cases made manageable, eventually leads to poorly balanced mechs as a matter of course. Eventually you're not going to catch that one mech that is OP and now it's behind a pay wall. We're already skirting dangerously close with the Ilya and the Flame.

Make it so that the C-Bill can buy you -anything- that can possibly confer on on the field advantage. Once you do that PGI, you will earn my money again. I don't care if I have to unlock all variants and then spend more exp to get there, I don't care if they're 5x the cost in c-bills, just don't lock unique builds that can impact gameplay behind pay walls.

Edited by Monky, 24 December 2012 - 03:44 PM.

[HRR Insanity]

Monky, on 24 December 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's unique hardpoints/capabilities behind a paywall that matters for game balance.

let the hero mechs keep the 30% bonus, the unique paintjobs, the backstory and all that. That is something entirely valid to pay money for, and every poll I've seen says it's the main buy reason for hero mechs anyways. Getting unique hardpoints, while in some cases made manageable, eventually leads to poorly balanced mechs as a matter of course. Eventually you're not going to catch that one mech that is OP and now it's behind a pay wall. We're already skirting dangerously close with the Ilya and the Flame.

Make it so that the C-Bill can buy you -anything- that can possibly confer on on the field advantage. Once you do that PGI, you will earn my money again. I don't care if I have to unlock all variants and then spend more exp to get there, I don't care if they're 5x the cost in c-bills, just don't lock unique builds that can impact gameplay behind pay walls.

Agree. I'm also not purchasing any Hero 'Mechs (or probably anything else) until this has been corrected by PGIGP.