96 replies to this topic

[SamizdatCowboy]

Tvae, on 24 December 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

Oh don't worry, I understand the concept of perfect imbalance perfectly (or rather, imperfectly, if you will). The issue still exists that, if you have a section of this imbalance scheme that is only available with real money, it still creates issues.

I really intend to stop using the term 'pay to win' because, really, that is never the goal in a situation such as this. I get that, and it's possible to get possible to perfect imbalance than to perfect balance (or at least, easier to make a perfect system that is still enjoyable. As said in the video, perfect balance tends to create stale play).

The issue is, having part of the gameplay only available with real money is, on a more basic level, as bad as pay to win, even if it isn't (pay to win). It can almost be described as 'pay to play', if you will. Imagine if you will (horrible example incoming) a situation where there was an alternate chess piece which was only available if you paid money to use (even if you made the chess set yourself so the game itself was free, that piece would cost you money to use). Even if you had to swap out your knight or bishop to use that piece, and that piece was perfectly imbalanced, the concept of having a piece that is only available with money just feels... wrong.

This.

People keep getting hung up on 'OP' and 'pay2win.' I'll be the first to admit the hero mechs aren't necessarily superior to anything else, and the balance is very good. Again, it's not about pay2win.

If you're an f2p purist (like myself and some others), then the idea is you release the game, the whole game, for free. You make everything available via grind, but then allow players to pay real money to skip or accelerate the grind.

Maybe you think you can't make money by doing this (and many dinosaur game company executives would agree with you), but the trend of successful f2p games that have done this shows you're wrong.


Look, the reason I was so engaged in MWO was because I actually found the grind kind of fun. The idea that I could earn any mech in the game motivated me to play and grind out cbills. The fact that the grind took awhile made earning that next mech actually feel like an achievement.

At the same time I do value my time, and was willing to pay money for premium time, (standard variant) cbill booster mechs, and XP -> GXP conversion (and obviously mech bays). In other words, I was already a paying customer.

However now that I've realized you *can't* earn every mech in the game just by playing, I've lost some of that motivation to play. I was motivated by the idea that 'I can grind out any mech I'm interested in,' and obviously that's not true.

Also I hate cheap paywall gimmicks. I mean eff off, I'm already a paying customer and your shady strategy to force me to pay just makes me less likely to pay in the future.

Obviously a lot of people aren't like me, and good for you, but I firmly believe PGI didn't have to resort to this tactic. CBill booster mechs would have been profitable either way.

Bluescuba, on 24 December 2012 - 06:34 AM, said:

You do realise that for flame and fang the hardpoints are exactly the same as the standard variants the only difference is that they are moved to different locations. So please cry less this is not p2w.

To everyone who is saying "they're just different hardpoint layouts"... um, last time I checked hardpoint layout was a pretty big deal in Mechwarrior.

Edited by SamizdatCowboy, 24 December 2012 - 07:00 PM.

[Shelshoq]

wait you mean my super duper slow TRIPLE GUASS ilya is over powered? maybe alittle...

[TopDawg]

Yeah I mean I dunno, out of all the Hero Mechs the only one that worries me when I see it on the field is the Ilya, but that's mostly because of how strong UAC/5s are right now.

Perhaps Hero Mechs are supposed to be more flexible, so long as that doesn't translate into advantages on the field over other Mechs (that is to say, that despite having great hardpoints and/or locations, you can't make use of them all at the same time). I guess time will tell since we're due Hero Mechs about once a month, and had three this month.

[Johnny Reb]

Ryolacap, on 24 December 2012 - 06:18 AM, said:

I would love to see the ability to make your own hero mech once you mastered leveled your mech, it would have to abide by certain guidelines but perhaps add change a hardpoint, engine size, etc. All with limitations of course.

Terrible idea! Well for my targets!

[Red squirrel]

IMHO the YLW is a pint in the arse - no missle HP, no vertical arm movement - horrible mech
OK, the Ilya is faster than the 4X but I prefer 4 arm mounted AC5 to a mix of arm and torso mounted ones.
(Since the UAC nerf I play my 4x with 4AC5 instead of 2AC5 2UAC5.)

Flame is definitly nice and I will possibly get one, but 4 PPC .....dream on

[Naeron66]

Tvae, on 24 December 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

I'm yet to see a counter to the point that releasing variants for money only will actually result in a loss of sales.

I've yet to see a convincing argument that releasing variants for money only will actually result in a loss of sales. And yours was yet another unconvincing one.

[sgt scout]

I did read it but i interprate "pay for advantages" as "pay to win" as ive always seen the term pay to win as paying for an advantage ???????????????????????????????????????????

Lets foget about all that for a secound though and look at what you are asking people to be ok with paying for.

A mech with a unique name ( you can rename your mech?????) + 30 % c bills and a skin you cannot change.

REALY? you want those that support the game to not even get mialdly unique hard points?

By the way 2 u/ac/5's and 2 ac5's can go on the 4 x .......... is this better than 3 uac5,s ?? dont know because i havent got the llya but is it a vaible build that fullfills the same roll as the one you posted. yes, it is.

The standerd chassies can match the hero mechs although you may have to equipe different weapons. The advantages you get are more persenal prefference than any thing else.

To sum up and hopfully avoid any further discusion, the point i am trying to make is that asking people to pay for the skin and cbill bonus without the hard points is so minor i cannot see any one paying for it.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Personally I think that either by selling 2 types of premium time would find more effects they're looking for. What they have now and a "per match" premium time for those who'd rather spend money that way.

[MrPenguin]

Elizander, on 24 December 2012 - 06:57 AM, said:

First of all, I do agree that they should make no-skin, no-30% bonus, no-name, boring drab dull grey colored 'hero' mechs for maybe 5x-10x the c-bill costs (40m-50m or even more) or make them unlockable with some sort of achievement system (get to buy the YLW if you Master 3 Cents and get them all to 300k EXP each and still no skin/bonuses) or both.

Having stated that, there is nothing wrong with enticing people to pay for the product/service you provide. If the issue is not P2W then there is nothing wrong with wanting people to pay money. A department store doesn't open up just to give you free air conditioning and a place to window shop. They want you to buy stuff too. If it's not P2W then how are people 'forced' into spending for it? If it's not needed then there is no need to buy it, right?

You hit the nail on the head.

Naeron66, on 25 December 2012 - 04:09 AM, said:

I've yet to see a convincing argument that releasing variants for money only will actually result in a loss of sales. And yours was yet another unconvincing one.

Considering how many hero mechs I see in-game. I'd say that they sell quite a lot of them. So... from what we can see... its actually making them a good profit so far. But, we don't have actual numbers so who really knows.

Edited by MrPenguin, 26 December 2012 - 09:12 PM.

[Papewaio]

I'd make it unlockable via uber grind.

You must have all variants elite.
Pay a premium amount in c-bills (x10, 20 or 100) and/or GXP.
A paint job that is limited to something different to the MC Hero variant.

Also I'd give the MC Hero mechs a lead time when only the paid variant is available say 6-12 weeks OR x number are sold OR they get X number of kills.

I'd add in a hero patent too. Any cbills paid to buy the hero via grind gets redistributed between all the MC Hero mechs. So the rarer the mech via MC the more they get in the cash rewards.

And you have to kill the MC Hero before you can buy it too.

[PANZERBUNNY]

Wait until a hero mech appears that can mount ECM.

[Ryolacap]

The last thing Wang has, is an advantage

[Vassago Rain]

Ryolacap, on 26 December 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

The last thing Wang has, is an advantage

Size doesn't matter, only how you use it.

[SamizdatCowboy]

Planetside really nailed the f2p economy imo:

Quote

Planetside 2 has three fundamental types of items. Power adding items: [These are] items such as grenades, med kits, certain types of implants (like a run speed booster); these items fundamentally alter player power and are acquired exclusively with resources earned in game. Playstyle items: These are sidegrades for vehicles and weapons, these switch up playstyle, and as much as possible are balanced against one another to not add absolute power. These are available for resources earned in game or Station Cash. Non-gameplay affecting items: [These are] things like cosmetic skins, resource or XP boosts, etc. These don't have any impact on moment-to-moment gameplay, and therefore player power, and are available for Station Cash.

So as you can see, anything that gives any gameplay impact of any kind is always going to be available through gameplay. You wont be able to unlock a gameplay affecting item exclusively for Station Cash, there will be an in-game acquisition path as well, you're just bypassing (or short-cutting) it by using Station Cash.

Additionally, none of our item sidegrades really give a discrete power advantage, and those items which do (such as grenades, etc.) are available exclusively for in-game resources. So, while you can unlock different playstyle choices with Station Cash, you're not really buying an advantage overall, you're just unlocking different situational breadth.

Source

And considering it's been a smashing success in terms of revenue, the people arguing that you can't make money if you make all gameplay items achievable via grind are just Wrong.

[RainbowToh]

SamizdatCowboy, on 24 December 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

[spoiler]

Again, the problem is that they're segmenting the game between 'free' and 'pay.' Everything should be available to free players and paying should only be about convenience and saving time.

I get your point. But the Hero Mechs are NOT critical content that players absolutely need to buy in order to play the game or something. It is simply bonus feature n has to be unique to warrant real cash. Besides i think the normal variants offer a good deal of build options.

Every critical content in MWO, customisation mechlab, pilot skills, critical content are free to play. Does EVERYTHING has to be free? Not really, only critical gameplay content. Unique stuff (as long it is not P2W) are neccessary to keep the company in the black.

Cheers

[SamizdatCowboy]

RainbowToh, on 26 December 2012 - 11:27 PM, said:

I get your point. But the Hero Mechs are NOT critical content that players absolutely need to buy in order to play the game or something. It is simply bonus feature n has to be unique to warrant real cash. Besides i think the normal variants offer a good deal of build options.

Every critical content in MWO, customisation mechlab, pilot skills, critical content are free to play. Does EVERYTHING has to be free? Not really, only critical gameplay content. Unique stuff (as long it is not P2W) are neccessary to keep the company in the black.

Cheers

you may want to read the post I made just before yours... specifically in regards to "Unique stuff (as long it is not P2W) are neccessary to keep the company in the black." Planetside proves you wrong.

[SpiralRazor]

TopDawg, on 24 December 2012 - 04:47 AM, said:

PGI, I strongly urge you to consider making it so that Hero Mechs do not have unique hardpoint layouts. I suggest you offer a C-Bill variant that has the same hardpoint layout as the Hero Mechs, but does not have the unique skin or 30% C-Bill bonus (or name I suppose, too). As someone who has the Ilya, Fang, and Flame (Dragons for life!), I think PGI has already crossed the threshold of 'pay for advantage' with the Ilya and the Flame; perhaps even the Yen-Lo. The Yen-Lo and Fang do not offer any overt advantage over their counterparts (although the Yen-Lo is the only Centurion able to mount an AC/20 in its arm). However the Ilya and Flame not only offer very unique possibilities and flexibility, but very strong possibilities that its other chassis just can't do. I'm not advocating changing the hardpoints unless they offer a refund of MC, as changing the product after it is purchased is just a bad way to go about it all the way around. But as I said above, I am advocating that the hardpoints not be unique only to Hero Mechs.

Clueless...please stop posting nonsense.


Care to duel my 4x in your Muromets? Best 3 out of 5 even.. I bet you will change your mind right quickly.

Also, Star Trek online was HUGELY successful with there P2W ships...Hugely...in fact, they were so successful that it drug the game out of being cancelled. And there P2W ships even come with P2W weapons and modules in some cases, and those modules/weapons can be put on even more powerful P2W ships.

Be glad that in MWO a Hero mech doesnt give you any substantive advantage other then a Cbill boost.

You are wrong...completely wrong

[TopDawg]

SpiralRazor, on 26 December 2012 - 11:48 PM, said:

Clueless...please stop posting nonsense.


Care to duel my 4x in your Muromets? Best 3 out of 5 even.. I bet you will change your mind right quickly.

Also, Star Trek online was HUGELY successful with there P2W ships...Hugely...in fact, they were so successful that it drug the game out of being cancelled. And there P2W ships even come with P2W weapons and modules in some cases, and those modules/weapons can be put on even more powerful P2W ships.

Be glad that in MWO a Hero mech doesnt give you any substantive advantage other then a Cbill boost.

You are wrong...completely wrong

When would you like to duel then?

Also I'm going to assume you didn't read my other posts (as then you wouldn't have made yours), so let me help you out. I say, "I was simply saying that the Ilya and Flame, while not pay to win, do seem like a 'pay for advantage' due to hardpoint layouts (and again, I own the Ilya, Fang, and Flame); which could be entirely avoided/negated if they simply did not have unique hardpoints.

Although part of the reason for the Muromets is simply due to how strong the UAC/5 currently is (shameless plug for my feedback thread to perhaps better balance it). The Flame is just a really strong variant due to it's hardpoints and locations, but again, isn't necessarily pay to win. Most people seem to think they are fine though, which is great I guess. I'm just concerned that PGI is, and has to, carefully and continually toe the line here."

Your 4X build also has as many UAC/5s as you can fit. That's weird; or is that interesting? Either way, when do we duel?

[MrPenguin]

SpiralRazor, on 26 December 2012 - 11:48 PM, said:

Clueless...please stop posting nonsense.


Care to duel my 4x in your Muromets? Best 3 out of 5 even.. I bet you will change your mind right quickly.

Also, Star Trek online was HUGELY successful with there P2W ships...Hugely...in fact, they were so successful that it drug the game out of being cancelled. And there P2W ships even come with P2W weapons and modules in some cases, and those modules/weapons can be put on even more powerful P2W ships.

Be glad that in MWO a Hero mech doesnt give you any substantive advantage other then a Cbill boost.

You are wrong...completely wrong

More or less what this gentlemen says.
As far as firepower goes. I can do much stronger builds with a 4x then a muromets. And this is from a muromets pilot using 3x UAC/5. And theirs plenty of problems with that build. I don't think the OP truly understand what you sacrifice when making a UAC/5 build and how hard it actually is to aim them.

[TopDawg]

MrPenguin, on 27 December 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

More or less what this gentlemen says.
As far as firepower goes. I can do much stronger builds with a 4x then a muromets. And this is from a muromets pilot using 3x UAC/5. And theirs plenty of problems with that build. I don't think the OP truly understand what you sacrifice when making a UAC/5 build and how hard it actually is to aim them.

Such as? I have three of the four Hero Mechs. I have a 3x UAC/5 build.

I'm not sure either of you are actually reading these posts without just wanting to excrete nerd rage 'Her0 Mechz r not OP, u r dum', despite my posts I've already quoted ~3 times now.

Assuming PGI gets CW right, I hope to see you guys around.