CW Grayson, on 07 June 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:
Actually his logic fits because bigger weapons need more than 1 hardpoint, see the official topic about mechlab.
To make it simple, let's say you have a mech with 1 ballistic hardpoint each on a side torso. Normally you can fit in a small or (maybe) medium cannon in each slot then.
"Special" pay-mech has both hardpoints in one torso, there goes in an AC20 or Gauss for example.
The logic fits because any weapon will always use one hardpoint of it's type yet all hardpoints in a location use the same crit pool for that location.
Christopher Dayson, on 31 May 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:
Uhhh no. Your logic simply doesn't mesh. A hard point is a hard point is a hard point. No matter what the weight class is, that hard point is equally capable since a hard point itself has no bearing on what tonnage is placed into it. Moving a hard point from left to right torso doesn't do anything. All it does is change how those hard points are used.
Let's go with your example:
A jenner with 2 energy hard points on each arm could theoretically fit /4 ER PPCS/ in it's arms. So it doesn't matter if a mech has 4 in each arm. What matters is available tonnage and crit spaces (Along with heat and ammo needs of course).
Lets say you have a stock jenner with 2 energy hard points per arm, and one with 4 energy points per arm. All things being equal they both have 12 tons of weight left for weapons. The mech with 4 in each arm loads up with 8 medium lasers and 4 additional double heat sinks. The mech with 2 energy hard points takes 2 Medium Lasers in each arm while relying on the stock 10 double heat sinks. It also takes an LRM-15 in the missile hard point and 1 ton of ammo
8 medium lasers is a potential 40 damage at 24 heat which is accounted for. 4 medium lasers and LRM-15 is only 35 damage potential but I think everyone can agree that the LRM-15 allows for a lot more versatility than nothing but medium lasers and is a credible threat since a Jenner can keep ranges extended.
It's a playstyle difference, and that's it. That's also comparing the most efficient laser weapon in the game vs a mixed spread of weapons. It all comes down to who uses their choice of layout better, thus skill 2 win, not pay 2 win.
No, here is why you are flat out wrong. A hardpoint isn't equal to any other hardpoint. A hardpoint isn't just a hardpoint. Hardpoints are limiters to the maximum number of weapons of that type that can fit in a location. Crits are a limiter to the maximum number of weapons or equipment used in a location.
Your example of 4 PPCs is null as it is playing to an extreme, you are taking away weapons from the build and completely changing it in a way that really isn't possible without major sacrifices to the Jenner to make it work. Yet, keeping those 4 MLas and adding 2 more LLas can be done with minimal tweaks, optimizing the build, biggest loss is the SRM4 but the Jenner gets the ability to reach out and touch people. It runs hotter but gives a long range option to the Mech without really hurting it's short range game or it's mobility or armor. Hardpoints are the only limiter to that, if 2 are in each arm then it isn't possible, a Premium Only mech with 3 in each arm makes this build possible.
Difference between this variant and your LRM-15 freebie stock Jenner is that the Premium one has more reliable damage at range that can also affect the short game. It chooses to require more skill in heat management to not haev as much wasted tonnage if it comes across a scout or scout hunter on it's own. And it also gives a last ditch option of just alpha striking into shutdown while not having to worry about ammo explosions at all. So it plays to a different playstyle, but rewards a higher skill ceiling for a certain skill set that isn't given as an option to a Free player. Because of this, two players that are exactly the same in skill and playstyle with the only difference between them being a Premium mech being played by one and not the other leaves the Premium player at an advantage as he can better build to his skill set.
Moving a Ballistic Hardpoint (BH) from the Atlas Right Torso to the left means that it has 1 BH in RT and 1 BH in LT. This means that it can fit 2 Gauss Rifles, or 2 AC-20s or 2 AC-10s when it wouldn't be possible before because of crit space. If both Hardpoints are in the RT then the RT doesn't have enough crits for two ballistic weapons of AC-10 or greater as anything put into the RT needs crit space in the RT to be open.
This is why
ALL HARDPOINTS ARE NOT CREATED EQUAL!
So, when you have more than one Ballistic Hardpoint in a location that second Ballistic hardpoint has less overall value as it cannot support the larger ballistic weapons even if the Tonnage is freed up on the mech because of the limits of crits to location. If you instead have that second ballistic hardpoint in another location that hardpoint is now not limited by what is put into the first.
So how is the second and beyond Energy and Missile Hardpoints worth more than the first? Because Energy and Missile weapons are light on critical usage and easy to boat because of that. Hardpoints becomes the limiting factors for these weapons. If you have 1 energy hardpoint (EH) in the LT on Mystery-Alphastrike Mk1, you can fit any one energy weapon. If you have 3 EH in the LT, you can generally fit any 3 energy weapons and this continues on until all crit spaces are used in that location. This means you can either get more punch to the salvo or more flexibility by mixing and matching long and short range weapons. Same is generally true of Missile Hardpoints. In both cases you generally want to have them grouped up into the same location until that location's crits are used as it means you can better protect that area with armor optimizing. If you have 3 EH in the LT instead of having 2 EH in the LT and 1 EH in the LA then you can lower the armor on the LA to raise the armor on the LT, getting better overall protection for what is important on the same tonnage of armor.
Energy Hardpoints and Missile Hardpoints are more valuable when grouped into single locations rather than being spread out because they aren't limited by crit usage in a single location to the same extreme that ballistic weapons are. Having them in a single location means that it becomes easier to protect all of them and have them working longer through the fight, not just by armor optimizing but also positioning and facing to limit the damage to that location.
Ballistic Hardpoints are more valuable spread out over the mech instead of being in a single location as ballistic weapons are heavily limited by the number of crits in a location. If two BH are in a single location it becomes impossible to mount the larger ballistic weapons in both of those hardpoints because of the limited number of crits in that location, a restriction not imposed on Energy and Missile hardpoints.
And the value of hardpoints isn't just if they are spread out or grouped but also on their location on the mech. This is because of factors like Torso Twist and how far the arms can move beyond it.
For example, the Atlas has a very narrow torso twist, there is a narrow angle that is the field of fire for the Torso mounted weapons. It is his arm mounted weapons that are best at defending him as they can reach farther beyond. This is shown in both screenshots and footage of the game, though is always subject to change. This means that those Arm EH are best served with MLas or LLas as PPCs have a minimum range and will impact the mech's ability to use it's arm mounted weapons to defend itself.
By the same measure, a narrow torso twist has less of an impact on long range weapons like LRMs as the amount of area between the edges of the field of fire increases the further away you aim. This means that weapons that have a minimum range have less of a negative impact on the mech's ability as a whole, as the narrow Torso Twist does limit the effectiveness of short ranged weapons affected by it.
This means that in order to make use of the Atlas' AC20 mounted to the RT you need to have good positioning on your target while in close range. If you are caught in close range outside of that ideal position the weapon has virtually no impact as you cannot bring it to bear on the target. If the AC20 was instead a Gauss Rifle it would actually improve the mech overall, giving up a bit of strength when in it's perfect position for close range for a lot more overall use of the BH by making it better at long range and therefore easier to get ideal positioning on targets with.
Yet, if that AC20 was mounted in the arm instead it would provide a greater boon to the Atlas, making it a self defense weapon rather requiring better positioning.
To compare, a Hunchback has a much wider Torso Twist so it is better able to bring it's AC20 to bear on a target as it doesn't need the same level of good positioning. This is an example as to how the value of the Hardpoints change, because different factors affect them, what they can fit into them and the builds they allow can be drastically different because of simple and small changes.
Changing hardpoints or having unique hardpoint layouts can have a drastic impact on the gameplay. Locking this change to being a Premium only option is Pay To Win. You don't have to use every last hardpoint to have hardpoints be Pay To Win, only do more with what you have and get a better impact on gameplay.