533 replies to this topic

[Kdogg788]

That's why we're all waiting for Phase 3 so we can run incomplete groups hopefully and not be hamstrung by 8 player limits. On top of this we should have a much more sophisticated matchmaker that should account for tonnage and player skill. Then everyone will be happy. The more elite teams will have a much higher likelihood of facing each other while the more casual players will not have to worry as much about facing all DDCs and Raven 3Ls. Ideally skill and ECM will have weight in the new MM metric.

-k

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

I've been playing 8vs8 yesterday with guys from 1stGIFR (I'm not a member tough) and I think there were only two more teams playing at the time.

[Glory in the Highest]

I think what we all expected to happen has happened - the 8v8s are underpopulated because they are too hard for most. As much as people say they'd rather have fun than win, you don't see those same people staying in a situation where they lose more often than not. There's been a big return to the 4-man max because people like to feel like they have a fighting chance, while crying for their opponents to handicap themselves.

The reason the DDC/3L combo is used so much is because it works. Some teams are here to play to win, and the tears of "dishonorable", "cheese", "unfair", "no-skill", "hacker", and "exploiter" are just fuel for the fire. There will always be a cheese combo, no matter what is changed. It is impossible to fully balance the top end of a game - any game. Anyone with experience in high level FPS, fighting games, etc knows this. In our case, In The Beginning, it was Slasback. Then it was Laser K2. Then it was Gausscat. Now it's ECM Joy. Tomorrow, for all I know, it'll be Dragons.

I guess what I'm saying is the reason 8mans are underpopulated is not the ECM combo, but rather the attitude of most gamers. "How dare you beat me with superior tactics and loadouts, even though they're available to me, too. Fight like a man. Take off ECM so I can kill you."

[Joseph Mallan]

Part of the problem I saw yesterday is 2 Lag shield Ravens killed 330 tons (2 Atlas, one Awesome and a Wang) with impunity. Possible I assure you, However The Centurion Pilot is a dedicated Light hunter who could not touch the Ravens. This is a lag issue and begs for the return of Collision and knockdown. I played two hours or so.

We learned we were not the hot shet we should be. Thats OK in my book, I haven't harbored any illusions of greatness, I just need to train more for the coming Clans.

We are learning. Getting wiser to the strategy used by the 8mans. We even won by killing the opponents once at least (it was late and I wasn't paying attention).

One thing I did see that made me happy. ZERO disconnects. ZERO AFK!

Also, though it ground our players ego we had a match where our scouts found the enemy set up in a very good kill box. To My teams credit we did not lose discipline and go rushing in like lambs to a slaughter. To the enemies credit, they waited patiently, for the ambush to be triggered and did not lose focus on their objective. Our one dead scout at the end of the match was still glowing from the pain you delivered. I salute your bearing.

Murphy's Law will be back soon in the 8 man circuit, and hopefully WE will become one of the groups to make folks fear 8manland!

[Thirdstar]

Ricktor Black, on 28 December 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

........snip

I think he was pointing out that PUGs have been facing the same issue you are and have been called all kinds of names for voicing that opinion. That they don't want to be that serious and are getting murdered by more skilled and coordinated teams. I don't think it was directed at you personally.

[SlXSlXSlX]

Joseph how can two ravens do so much!? Why just moments ago I was chastised for not killing a 4 pack of them with my trial stalker... That baby, turns like a dream.

[TheMagician]

I don't see ECM as that much of a problem in 8v8s. Some games are nearly all ECM, and some are closer to half. Either way, ecm doesn't affect me that much. It's still LoS, and I'm shooting to kill, so I don't need that targeting info (even if it helps).

But I see that for the masses its not very fun, which means that PGI needs to do some tweaks to how matches are setup. Possibly queuing for a certain type of drop dec (e.g. 2,2,2,2; 1,2,3,2) or tonnage, mixed in with their rating system.

Community Warfare will probably promote more 8v8 play as well. Thanks for the replies.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Glory, on 28 December 2012 - 08:58 AM, said:

I think what we all expected to happen has happened - the 8v8s are underpopulated because they are too hard for most. As much as people say they'd rather have fun than win, you don't see those same people staying in a situation where they lose more often than not. There's been a big return to the 4-man max because people like to feel like they have a fighting chance, while crying for their opponents to handicap themselves.

The reason the DDC/3L combo is used so much is because it works. Some teams are here to play to win, and the tears of "dishonorable", "cheese", "unfair", "no-skill", "hacker", and "exploiter" are just fuel for the fire. There will always be a cheese combo, no matter what is changed. It is impossible to fully balance the top end of a game - any game. Anyone with experience in high level FPS, fighting games, etc knows this. In our case, In The Beginning, it was Slasback. Then it was Laser K2. Then it was Gausscat. Now it's ECM Joy. Tomorrow, for all I know, it'll be Dragons.

I guess what I'm saying is the reason 8mans are underpopulated is not the ECM combo, but rather the attitude of most gamers. "How dare you beat me with superior tactics and loadouts, even though they're available to me, too. Fight like a man. Take off ECM so I can kill you."

Except rolling random 8 man pre mades who are using 3L's and DDC's badly is not particularly entertaining either.
ECM in 8 man games isn't even that great, which is more frustrating that most teams in the 8v8 que handicap themselves into taking it.

The other aspect, is when you are a skilled competitive team, the actual 8v8's that are challenging are still infrequent enough that it still feels like pug stomping.

There has to be a way of two teams choosing to play each other, and fast.

Edited by DV McKenna, 28 December 2012 - 09:11 AM.

[Glory in the Highest]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 December 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

Murphy's Law will be back soon in the 8 man circuit, and hopefully WE will become one of the groups to make folks fear 8manland!

We need more teams in this game with this type of spirit.

DV McKenna, on 28 December 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

Except rolling random 8 man pre mades who are using 3L's and DDC's badly is not particularly entertaining either.
ECM in 8 man games isn't even that great, which is more frustrating that most teams in the 8v8 que handicap themselves into taking it.

Well, rolling anyone who is doing anything badly is never entertaining. Doesn't matter what they're in...

Edited by Glory, 28 December 2012 - 09:11 AM.

[Sears]

Still though with the low population of 8v8s, we've just had 4 failed to find in a row. And the group is bust. It's a good time for the RHoD tournament, you'd sync drop a lot more often.

Edited by Sears, 28 December 2012 - 09:12 AM.

[Erik Jast]

Ricktor Black, on 28 December 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

I'm not sure what you are saying. Are you agreeing with me or calling me a ***** because I don't play 8-man? Honestly, I personally enjoy 8-man matches. I don't mind loosing, I don't care about my kill/death ratio, I don't even care about earning c-bills. I play this game because I love giant stompy mechs and I don't care if I get wiped out because I take it as a learning experience. But the fact of the matter is that it's difficult to get a group of 8 people who are willing to take that kind of abuse and/or have the time to practice enough to get good enough so they don't get destroyed every match.

I'm not calling you anything, just making a general view about the community and how premades scorn the pugs when both sides want the same thing. When pugs ask or complain about fairer game play, they are jumped on by a pack of raging hyena premade players.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Glory, on 28 December 2012 - 09:10 AM, said:

Well, rolling anyone who is doing anything badly is never entertaining. Doesn't matter what they're in...

And i agree, but what im seeing is alot of teams handicapping themselves trying to play ECM warfare, which against a team of direct fire (like we take) is....well less than useful for them as their ECM has little effect on our setup.

[Sears]

I still think 4 man groups should launch into the same pool as 8v8s, match two 4 mans together. 8 man teams would suddenly increase as 4 mans get rolled more often. It would also enable the use of Lance chat which would be put back in ect ect

[Kdogg788]

TheMagician, on 28 December 2012 - 09:07 AM, said:

I don't see ECM as that much of a problem in 8v8s. Some games are nearly all ECM, and some are closer to half. Either way, ecm doesn't affect me that much. It's still LoS, and I'm shooting to kill, so I don't need that targeting info (even if it helps).

But I see that for the masses its not very fun, which means that PGI needs to do some tweaks to how matches are setup. Possibly queuing for a certain type of drop dec (e.g. 2,2,2,2; 1,2,3,2) or tonnage, mixed in with their rating system.

Community Warfare will probably promote more 8v8 play as well. Thanks for the replies.

I agree that CW will change all as well as P3MM. CW will likely have planetary lobbies and maybe even different tonnage limits or drop configurations dependent on the tactical situation that is unfolding in the meta war. My large lasers don't discriminate between an ECM shielded mech and one that isn't, but ECM as skewed the playing field so that so many teams run these often mentioned stacked Atlas/Raven teams.

To the guy several posts back who says to 8s getting beaten by these tactics "Too bad, so sad..." in a more wordy way... Is that what you want? Because the game needs diversity and interested players in order to maintain itself. I'm not a world beating player (my K/D is like 1.25), but not many people are as masochistic as me when it comes to taking losses to teams and tactics they consider "cheesy".

-k

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Sears, on 28 December 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

I still think 4 man groups should launch into the same pool as 8v8s, match two 4 mans together. 8 man teams would suddenly increase as 4 mans get rolled more often. It would also enable the use of Lance chat which would be put back in ect ect

Probably the best temporary solution in my mind.

[DaZur]

8-mans have resorted to pug-stomping because they (other 8-mans) can't seem to collectively agree to not abuse the broken 8-man match making limitations (I.e. "Atlas-fest 2012" or "ECM'-palooza")

Once PGI get around to fixing the MM, they (hopefully) will lose interest in beating on us poor PUGs

[Sears]

DV McKenna, on 28 December 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

Probably the best temporary solution in my mind.

there'd have to be an option for Lone Wolf Pugs to opt into 8v8 games so that 3 man groups would still launch into an 8v8.

Edited by Sears, 28 December 2012 - 09:18 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

SlXSlXSlX, on 28 December 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

Joseph how can two ravens do so much!? Why just moments ago I was chastised for not killing a 4 pack of them with my trial stalker... That baby, turns like a dream.

Well in the four Players defense it was the last two Mechs left on the enemy team so it isn't as though the Ravens murdered 4 fresh Mechs. The one Raven though, was the High score for the enemy team. Credit give where Credit due.

As to the How. 2 Ravens with ECM/ECCM a couple lasers and 2 streaks each circling a Mech while wearing lag shield. We were not ready with our own masses SSRMs in that match.

The Match (or two) we won was when our Scouts hunted, found and killed the enemy Ravens before engaging the main force. Still wasn't easy but it was satisfying!

[Adridos]

What's the excuse going to be next time?

At first it was: "Sync dropping is hard, but we still do our best in full 8man teams! Against pugs."

Once the limit was implemented: "But we can't play with our friends anymore! 8man or I quit!"

Once 8 mans got implemeted: "All of a suddden, our previous friends dissapeared and it's hard to form a 8 man group. Aaaand the other side cheats, aaaand..."


Like, seriously, you're not even trying to hide the fact all you want is to stomp pugs and can't compete against people who aren't at a disadvantage.

[Joseph Mallan]

DV McKenna, on 28 December 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

Except rolling random 8 man pre mades who are using 3L's and DDC's badly is not particularly entertaining either.
ECM in 8 man games isn't even that great, which is more frustrating that most teams in the 8v8 que handicap themselves into taking it.

The other aspect, is when you are a skilled competitive team, the actual 8v8's that are challenging are still infrequent enough that it still feels like pug stomping.

There has to be a way of two teams choosing to play each other, and fast.

Yeah sad that we all have to start somewhere, and the Learning curve you are pitying, was once one you were on the wrong end of.

Looking down your nose can lead to sever neck injuries I've heard...

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 28 December 2012 - 09:27 AM.