533 replies to this topic

[Vassago Rain]

Ozric, on 01 January 2013 - 07:07 PM, said:

I've been wondering who the corps still running 8 mans are. I only pug, so I only know the corps that don't, and it's impossible to tell who is actually any good. In the absence of a ladder the 8 mans are about all there is to gauge relative skill.

ARM'd, KaOS, some eridani, Kong, a handful of regulars making ad-hoc teams on the teamspeak, and up until christmas, I saw the run hot or die people sometimes.

There's not a lot of us left.

Edit: as for skill, there are guys like texas merc, who always perform well, Kong has a very high win rate when the right people are on, and ARM'd widely seem to serve as cannon fodder, but they're at least brawling and trying their best.

Sometimes, for some reason, you'll see 8 manz with all XL engines, LRMboats, and medium mechs. These are the most brutal of sweeps, but teams like this have largely abandoned 8 manz. Guess it took a few 0-8 against us to prove to them that their 'strat' is terrible.

Edited by Vassago Rain, 02 January 2013 - 02:50 AM.

[TB Freelancer]

Vassago Rain, on 01 January 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

No, they won't.
They won't, because the option's there to go farm out weaker players effortlessly.

They'll never admit to it though....

...queue the excuses not to pay 8s.

Greyfyl, on 01 January 2013 - 06:26 PM, said:

Exactly right Vassago. It's like everyone has already forgotten that the excuse during phase 1 was that the guys doing premades had no choice - that PGI had forced pugstomping on them by taking out 8 mans (even though 8 mans was just pugstomping on a worse scale).

Then it was complaints about not making enough money or that it took to long for a match to end, ECM, cheese builds, because of long wait times. Another cute one is they no longer have two dozen guys, they only have 7 and are 'forced' into 4 mans.

Anything but the truth which is that rolling 4 mans is easy.

Slanski, on 02 January 2013 - 02:41 AM, said:

Easy 8on8 fix:

1. ECCM shuts down any ECM in its radius, not just one (you do not need to outnumber enemy ECM, just have one present).
2. Make 8 man teams 2/2/2/2 for weight classes or match closest tonnage bid against the next in a 1min queue.
3. Add a 100k contract bonus to payout for both sides in the match to pay for their extra time spent fighting in a longer match. If this is insufficient, double the winnings on the winner side. Add a prestige counter of 8man matches won. (satisfy cash reward desire and vanity).

If you want players to play a certain way, you need to incentivize them to do it. That is called game design.

As for #3. Absolutely not! I can't emphasize that enough. Right now veteran groups farming pugs are making far more money than they deserve because they are choosing to spend the majority of their time fighting weaker opponents even though they have the men and the competence to compete viably in 8vs8. They shouldn't be rewarded more handsomely for getting into a fair fight. Pugs aren't. They should be handicapped for fighting lesser opponents, cbills and stats are probably the most effective way to do that.

As I see it, experienced groups mixing with pugs should be kind of viewed like practice. Once you've reached a certain level of competency as a group, you should start seeing heavily diminished returns for mixing with pugs the higher your Elo rating is, some scale that goes all the way to no rewards of any kind for a 2,800 Elo player in a group stomping pugs. You want full rewards? Go fight a fair fight or pug yourself.

I haven't even touched on hard restrictions of what can be fielded for groups mixing with pugs....

[Vassago Rain]

TB Freelancer, on 02 January 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

They'll never admit to it though....

...queue the excuses not to pay 8s.



Then it was complaints about not making enough money or that it took to long for a match to end, ECM, cheese builds, because of long wait times. Another cute one is they no longer have two dozen guys, they only have 7 and are 'forced' into 4 mans.

Anything but the truth which is that rolling 4 mans is easy.



As for #3. Absolutely not! I can't emphasize that enough. Right now veteran groups farming pugs are making far more money than they deserve because they are choosing to spend the majority of their time fighting weaker opponents even though they have the men and the competence to compete viably in 8vs8. They shouldn't be rewarded more handsomely for getting into a fair fight. Pugs aren't. They should be handicapped for fighting lesser opponents, cbills and stats are probably the most effective way to do that.

As I see it, experienced groups mixing with pugs should be kind of viewed like practice. Once you've reached a certain level of competency as a group, you should start seeing heavily diminished returns for mixing with pugs the higher your Elo rating is, some scale that goes all the way to no rewards of any kind for a 2,800 Elo player in a group stomping pugs. You want full rewards? Go fight a fair fight or pug yourself.

I haven't even touched on hard restrictions of what can be fielded for groups mixing with pugs....

In any other game, golds would be laughed out of the room. In MWO, it's completely fine to farm in the ghetto, for some reason.

[Mongoose Trueborn]

Vassago Rain, on 01 January 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

Sure.
But we've probably already done that, and crushed you soundly. Kong tries to do 8 manz after 10 pm, burgerland time, every single day.

Never been crushed, have been capped by a team full of lights tho. Is that what you run? We will play you but be warned, the SS will show up here to show the result.

What time zone is "burgerland time"?

[Vassago Rain]

Mongoose Trueborn, on 02 January 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

Never been crushed, have been capped by a team full of lights tho. Is that what you run? We will play you but be warned, the SS will show up here to show the result.

What time zone is "burgerland time"?

Burgerland time is america time, which is about six hours behind me.

We don't run a lot of lights or mediums, and capping is generally seen as a last resort.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mongoose Trueborn, on 02 January 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

Never been crushed, have been capped by a team full of lights tho. Is that what you run? We will play you but be warned, the SS will show up here to show the result.

What time zone is "burgerland time"?

I think he means US. Personally I like the sound of it!

[Bilbo]

Ozric, on 01 January 2013 - 07:07 PM, said:

I've been wondering who the corps still running 8 mans are. I only pug, so I only know the corps that don't, and it's impossible to tell who is actually any good. In the absence of a ladder the 8 mans are about all there is to gauge relative skill.

Vassago Rain, on 02 January 2013 - 02:44 AM, said:

ARM'd, KaOS, some eridani, Kong, a handful of regulars making ad-hoc teams on the teamspeak, and up until christmas, I saw the run hot or die people sometimes.

There's not a lot of us left.

Edit: as for skill, there are guys like texas merc, who always perform well, Kong has a very high win rate when the right people are on, and ARM'd widely seem to serve as cannon fodder, but they're at least brawling and trying their best.

Sometimes, for some reason, you'll see 8 manz with all XL engines, LRMboats, and medium mechs. These are the most brutal of sweeps, but teams like this have largely abandoned 8 manz. Guess it took a few 0-8 against us to prove to them that their 'strat' is terrible.

DHB stil runs 8-mans and will continue to do so.

[Tasorin]

Vassago Rain, on 02 January 2013 - 02:44 AM, said:

ARM'd, KaOS, some eridani, Kong, a handful of regulars making ad-hoc teams on the teamspeak, and up until christmas, I saw the run hot or die people sometimes.

There's not a lot of us left.

Edit: as for skill, there are guys like texas merc, who always perform well, Kong has a very high win rate when the right people are on, and ARM'd widely seem to serve as cannon fodder, but they're at least brawling and trying their best.

Sometimes, for some reason, you'll see 8 manz with all XL engines, LRMboats, and medium mechs. These are the most brutal of sweeps, but teams like this have largely abandoned 8 manz. Guess it took a few 0-8 against us to prove to them that their 'strat' is terrible.

Like Mike said, "Everyone has a plan, until they get punched in the face."

Even when we do run pick up 8 man's or RHoD practices it still gets frustrating for us try-hards when we are in a 2-2-2-2 drop deck and face a 2-0-2-4 or a 4-0-0-4 drop deck due to ZERO match making capability or balancing. Not to mention, none of us like to loose, EVER!

Bilbo, on 02 January 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

DHB stil runs 8-mans and will continue to do so.

It was kind of sad to see DHB running sync 4 man's. but with the state of the 8 man queue I can at least understand the reasons. I will give you guys credit at least there was no smack talk in the match by either side considering the uneven nature of 4 KaoS + 4 Terribads vs. 8 DHB. At least I know I am going to get a target rich environment from which to shoot quality pilots in the face.

Edited by Tasorin, 02 January 2013 - 09:00 AM.

[Asakara]

Ozric, on 01 January 2013 - 07:07 PM, said:

I've been wondering who the corps still running 8 mans are. I only pug, so I only know the corps that don't, and it's impossible to tell who is actually any good. In the absence of a ladder the 8 mans are about all there is to gauge relative skill.

Death's Hand Brigade runs 8 mans. I have seen a number of other corps / clans out there. It is easy enough to look up a name from the match on the forums and see who you are / were facing.

Edited by Asakara, 02 January 2013 - 09:21 AM.

[Bilbo]

Tasorin, on 02 January 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

Like Mike said, "Everyone has a plan, until they get punched in the face."

Even when we do run pick up 8 man's or RHoD practices it still gets frustrating for us try-hards when we are in a 2-2-2-2 drop deck and face a 2-0-2-4 or a 4-0-0-4 drop deck due to ZERO match making capability or balancing. Not to mention, none of us like to loose, EVER!



It was kind of sad to see DHB running sync 4 man's. but with the state of the 8 man queue I can at least understand the reasons. I will give you guys credit at least there was no smack talk in the match by either side considering the uneven nature of 4 KaoS + 4 Terribads vs. 8 DHB. At least I know I am going to get a target rich environment from which to shoot quality pilots in the face.

We run them occassionally when we can't get a drop in the 8-man que. It's not SOP by any means.

[Vassago Rain]

Bilbo, on 02 January 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

DHB stil runs 8-mans and will continue to do so.

Really? I've only seen you do synch drops and 4 manz in...two months, basically. We had a whole bunch of screenshots of 4 manz Kong and publets beating your dudes up early in december.

[Bilbo]

Vassago Rain, on 02 January 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

Really? I've only seen you do synch drops and 4 manz in...two months, basically. We had a whole bunch of screenshots of 4 manz Kong and publets beating your dudes up early in december.

It is a large outfit. We have people playing 24/7. In the last few weeks, between 12-7AM EST it has been nearly impossible to find an 8-man. We also have a good sized contingent who will probably never play an 8-man outside of training.

As for synch-dropping, I, personally, have only done it once since 8 mans where allowed back in. Like I said earlier, it's not SOP.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Bilbo, on 02 January 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

It is a large outfit. We have people playing 24/7. In the last few weeks, between 12-7AM EST it has been nearly impossible to find an 8-man. We also have a good sized contingent who will probably never play an 8-man outside of training.

As for synch-dropping, I, personally, have only done it once since 8 mans where allowed back in. Like I said earlier, it's not SOP.

Did i read that right 12AM-7AM EST?

Most of the american's i know start crying when it goes past 11PM.

[Cmdr Harabec]

Bilbo, on 02 January 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

It is a large outfit. We have people playing 24/7. In the last few weeks, between 12-7AM EST it has been nearly impossible to find an 8-man. We also have a good sized contingent who will probably never play an 8-man outside of training.

As for synch-dropping, I, personally, have only done it once since 8 mans where allowed back in. Like I said earlier, it's not SOP.

Synchdrop pubstomping: not even once.

[Bilbo]

DV McKenna, on 02 January 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

Did i read that right 12AM-7AM EST?

Most of the american's i know start crying when it goes past 11PM.

Not sure what your asking. I generally play long sessions, 8-12 hours, longer on Friday - Saturday morning. As we approach Midnight EST, 8-mans seem to start falling off and it becomes impossible to get an 8-man drop until late morning or early afternoon. This has been my experience. Your milage may vary.

[Joseph Mallan]

DV McKenna, on 02 January 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

Did i read that right 12AM-7AM EST?

Most of the american's i know start crying when it goes past 11PM.

Tues-Thur that would be me... I have to get some sleep prior to coming to work and having meaningful discussions with you yahoos

[Mongoose Trueborn]

Bilbo, on 02 January 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

Not sure what your asking. I generally play long sessions, 8-12 hours, longer on Friday - Saturday morning. As we approach Midnight EST, 8-mans seem to start falling off and it becomes impossible to get an 8-man drop until late morning or early afternoon. This has been my experience. Your milage may vary.

I see the same thing. It's a late euro early evening US timeslot that has the most 8 man groups. If you guys are ever on and looking for a good sync drop vs DV8 then look me up on the US TS3 server.

[Bishop Steiner]

Vassago Rain, on 02 January 2013 - 02:44 AM, said:

ARM'd, KaOS, some eridani, Kong, a handful of regulars making ad-hoc teams on the teamspeak, and up until christmas, I saw the run hot or die people sometimes.

There's not a lot of us left.

Edit: as for skill, there are guys like texas merc, who always perform well, Kong has a very high win rate when the right people are on, and ARM'd widely seem to serve as cannon fodder, but they're at least brawling and trying their best.

Sometimes, for some reason, you'll see 8 manz with all XL engines, LRMboats, and medium mechs. These are the most brutal of sweeps, but teams like this have largely abandoned 8 manz. Guess it took a few 0-8 against us to prove to them that their 'strat' is terrible.

Steele's First Legion of Thunder, Dead Mans Hand and QQ are still doing them too (though the overall regularity I can't comment on, I would say Steele's has been doing em at least every other night, cause I roll with them about that often), as I have done drops with all the above.

As for the "some reason", some of us actually still like to play for fun, and like using more than 3-4 chassis to play, so we take what comes. And I would guestimate, of the matches we dropped, under those 3, I think it about a 75% win rate still. TexasMerc is a good drop partner, I guess I kinda am in the same boat, a "PUG" regular who like to work with different competitive, but chill teams. If people are going to be "uptight pro-gamers" I usually won't drop with them (especially since I don't even HAVE an ECM mech, loL).

But you did point out one other reason I pug and 4 man... because I LIKE running Dragons, and Centurions and K2s and such. And currently, they are not the best choices in general, for 8 man. So, as to not "handicap" my team, I usually will only use my Cataphract or Atlas in 8 man. Which gets boring.

[Celesteel]

Erik Jast, on 28 December 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

Most premades realized they didn't like losing and prefer ezmode pugstomping. The majority are back in the pug queue with their 4 mans, stomping away pretending they are awesome with the excuse that 8v8 is full of cheese players.

wish I could like the 100 times

[Dihm]

That makes you a bad player according to some though Bishop.