Jump to content

Hammerreborn's Trial Mech Challenge!


94 replies to this topic

#1 Hammertrial

    Clone

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 267 posts

Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:24 AM

I'm going to use this thread for all of my data dumps. Keep everything nice and clean. Feel free to suggest other ideas for trials, or to comment on any of the different things I have done!

New User Experience/Trial Mechs/Premades: See below
Mech Diversity: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1680369
ECM/Premades: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1825376
Mech Diversity Round 2 (after Pretty Baby): http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1860557
Mech Diversity Round 3 (3050 Weekend Community Challange): http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2220919

---------------------------------------
New User Experience/Trial Mechs/Premades:

So some of the non-founders have been basically calling out us founders to play from the view of a new player. So today since I'm sick and not working, I decided to take this challenge and have a fairly detailed writeup of my experience.

I'm going to be posting my results in sets of 10 (doing 10 of each trial mech). Right now the Raven has been completed.

All results formatting is: damage (rank on team unless specified otherwise), kills, Total C-bills, C-bills from Cadet bonus

Rules:
Playtype: Any
10 rounds of each trial + 10 of my favorite
Will not change any of the preset weapon groupings
All PUGs, no premades of any kind
No vision modes other than night vision in River City Night (as I would assume a new player would ask)
No team chat for strategy, or chat in general other than to ask about premades.
Will follow the zerg, no lone wolfing and will follow any commanders instructions.

10 Rounds of the Raven 2X
Spoiler


TL;DR Raven 2x results:

Win/Loss: 3/7
Kills/Deaths: 4/7
4,533,434 C-Bills
2,933 XP

ECM only prevalent in 2 matches, one clearly deciding while the other is a tossup. Two matches had confirmed premades (both on other team), one potential from the insults thrown my way when asked.

------------------------------
Centurion:
Spoiler


TL;DR Centurion:
W/L: 4/6
K/D: 9/6
C-Bills Earned: 3800399
XP earned: 3824

-----------------------------------------

RELEASE THE DRAGON!
Spoiler


TL;DR Dragon
W/L: 4/6
K/D: 2/7
C-Bills Earned:1,458,028
XP Earned: 2846

-----------------------------------

THE STALKER:
Spoiler


TL;DR Stalker
W/L: 4/6
K/D: 6/8
C-Bills Earned: 676,215
XP earned: 3421

----------------------------

TL;DR Total (after 40):
W/L: 15/25
K/D: 21/28
C-Bills Earned: 10,438,076
XP earned: 13,024

On premades:
In 30 matches only in 14 rounds did people openly admit to being a premade (note, 7 of these have come after 6 during the Dragon trials, and in some of these cases premades were on both teams). One group admitted they were sync dropped with 7 (I was the 8th) and another was a full team. Every other team announced 4 except for one with 3. Like the math supported, it was about twice as likely the enemy team had the premade than I did.

One interesting thing I noted is that in the centurion had far more premades involved. This could be due to two things. A) being in a medium allows you to be matched against more premades. Posted Image as this is played later in the day than the raven people are starting to log on, or C) there just isn't as many premades as people think there are. People readily admitted to being premades when asked, so I learn more towards the number being correct than far off from people not admitting to being in premades.

Addendum: From the Dragon trials a lot more premades were present, which leads me to belive that it's just people beginning to log on. Then again, as I note below, now that I'm in the Heavy/Assault mechs, maybe it's due to the class matching that I'm really starting to see the bulk of the premades.

Addendum 2: From the Stalker Trials once again more premades were present akin to the Dragon trials.

On ECM:

Only one match out of 30 had a heavy dose of ECM, and that was a single premade. ECMs were only prevelant on Raven 3Ls. There were one or two commando 2Ds seen overall, and I think in all 20 rounds only 3 atlas D-DCs were spotted. Only in the premade match did having ECM swing the game heavily into the ECM teams favor, and on the most part was just lone lights running around.

Addendum: Even in the Dragon trials with far more premades ECM was basically irrelevent, both sides having one or two but mainly using it for themselves rather than using it tatically to turn the tide of battle.

Addendum 2: Again, only in the heavy premade (the 8 man) was ECM really used to any effect. I believe that the ECM issue is overblown with respect to pugging. It just didn't really do anything in any match that actually mattered, other than making the equipped mech harder to find/kill using locked on weaponry.

On Diversity:

By far the most numerous mechs I have seen are the Catapults, Stalkers, and Cataphracts.

The least numberous mechs are the Awesome, Jenner, Commando, and Dragon, surprisingly (I typically have seen a large influx when running in my premade due to the new hero mech).

The middle pack is Centurions (most have been trials), Ravens, Cicadas, and Fatlases.

Addendum: Seen a lot more hunchbacks than I initially estimated, putting them with the middle pack, drop the Cicadas down to least numerous.

Addendum 2: Same as above, nothing really changed.

Overall experience:
Fairly positive. The Raven is trash, the Dragon could use some improvement, but both the Stalker and Centurion are fine, if a little on the hot side. By fine I don't mean killing gods of death, but enough for someone new to the game to be able to dish out a bit of damage and still have relatively good survivability.

The cadet bonuses are amazing, and it's actually kinda sad when it goes away and you begin earning those 35-50k matches instead of 600-700k.

In roughly 4 hours of playtime I earned over 10 million C-bills. I think that's perfectly acceptable for getting a new player started.

I think making all the trial mechs come standard with double heat sinks would be a huge benefit to the new user experience, but at the same time, theres just going to be no helping mechs like the raven 2x excel without giving new players a fully customized one.


Other Misc. Math:
In non-prime time, premades were present in 7/20 matches, prime time they were present in 12/20. I'd probably suspect the true numbers to be around 9/20 and 15/20, respectively.

3/40 drops were synced.

Admitted premades with the larger numbers (i.e. they existed or were a group of 4v2 or 8v4) won 12/19 games.

Conversely, the team down a member either from a DC or AFK lost 8 out of 10 times, with both those wins being on teams with premades.

Farmers, greifers, and afkers are far more of a detriment to the game than the premades. The disconnects are sometimes due to bugs, and that can't be helped at the moment except with bug fixes.

Edited by Hammertrial, 10 April 2013 - 09:35 PM.


#2 Lefty Lucy

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bridesmaid
  • Bridesmaid
  • 3,924 posts
  • LocationFree Tikonov Republic

Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:27 AM

I did a similar experiment with the trial centurion, starting a new account to test the cadet bonus.

My KDR when I was done was .29

My KDR on my main account is 1.7

Trial mechs are not "fine."

#3 Bishop Steiner

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Hammer
  • The Hammer
  • 47,187 posts
  • Locationclimbing Mt Tryhard, one smoldering Meta-Mech corpse at a time

Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:28 AM

I have done this, though I use anonymous accounts (So no founders or premium or hero bonuses). I have 2, one my old Clanmates know, the other no one knows about.
I actually had a fair chunk of fun, and discovered that certain Trial Mechs are actually VERY effective if one learns their idiosyncrasies and has a strategy beyond "alphastrike". (Which seems to be the tactic of choice)

I actually ended up really loving the CN9-D and Cataphract-1X, and have found several designs that all I did when I bought my own was increase ammo or something minor on. (Some, IMO, are truly bad though, like the basic Raven, or the AWS--9M, where essentially 2/3 of the arsenal is useless due to heat)

Will definitely pop in after work to see what else you accomplished.

Cheers and good hunting!

#4 Bishop Steiner

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Hammer
  • The Hammer
  • 47,187 posts
  • Locationclimbing Mt Tryhard, one smoldering Meta-Mech corpse at a time

Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:36 AM

View PostLefty Lucy, on 28 December 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

I did a similar experiment with the trial centurion, starting a new account to test the cadet bonus.

My KDR when I was done was .29

My KDR on my main account is 1.7

Trial mechs are not "fine."

Can't agree with you Lucy.

Are they optimal? No. But in that same Centurion, I was getting 1-2 kills virtually every match, the exceptions usually being when I had the joy of dropping in a group of morons, where we just got rolled. First several matches I got destroyed. Then I changed tactics. And lo and behold, I started racking in kills.

What did I do? Stop going in for "Max alpha" range early, and used the mech for it's intended purpose, as a Flanker and Harraser. Would use it's speed to skirt the fight, find solid locks and drop LRMS on them. Would occasionally claim a kill that way, but more often just softened them up, or forced them to change positions, making them better targets for my team.

Used the LB-X and Lasers to swat Cicadas or the like who could close on me, and discourage them from trying any mischief (admittedly, doesn't work if the other side wolf packs you, but then, even a "Optimized Mech" seldom does in that case.)

Once my LRMs were exhausted I would move into the 250 meter zone and starts flanking and exploiting weakened mechs, harassing them and forcing them to choose who to face, me, or the Stalker (insert larger mech type here), and doing mop up duty. 2 kills, and 450-ish damage were far from uncommon.

Might not set the world on fire, but if you find those stats "unacceptable" you have been min/maxxing it too long my adversarial friend!

Only thing keeping from posting stats, tbh, is that I want that account to be totally anonymous. I just prefer to have a "safe haven" where I can do my stuff without any forum/TS drama.

***PS, I would note that an optimized mech is ALWAYS better in performance, apples to apples. But trial mechs and stock designs are usually not "bad". and if the Stock designs were as good, then what reason (especially if RnR return) would I ever have to build/mod my own?

Also would note one reason us "veterans" often have our K/Dr drop preciptiouusly in them is we have become so accustomed to the advantages of extra ammo, DHS, XL engines for speed, etc, that they become CRUTCHES, or in your term, they are like playing the game in "EZMode" and we don't tend to ply well if we can't use our crutches.

Take the trial mechs, and take one of us with a lot more experience, but who always drives a premium mech, and someone with similar experience in a trial, and force us into the same battlefield and the guy who hasn't had the crutches wil almost always be better at piloting them than us, because he intimately knows the limitations and the workarounds. (I might be wrong, but I believe you mentioned something similar about people finding the 9M unplayable just not understanding how to cycle, cool and run the mech).

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 28 December 2012 - 12:03 PM.


#5 Hammertrial

    Clone

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 267 posts

Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:38 AM

Alright, ate lunch, Centurian Time

Also, these cadet bonuses are insane. A little over an hour playing (mainly due to the writeups afterwards, probably 45-50 minutes of actual playtime and watching Wayne's World) and I'm already at nearly 5 mil.

Edited by Hammertrial, 28 December 2012 - 11:40 AM.


#6 Bishop Steiner

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Hammer
  • The Hammer
  • 47,187 posts
  • Locationclimbing Mt Tryhard, one smoldering Meta-Mech corpse at a time

Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:43 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 28 December 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

Can't agree with you Lucy.

Are they optimal? No. But in that same Centurion, I was getting 1-2 kills virtually every match, the exceptions usually being when I had the joy of dropping in a group of morons, where we just got rolled. First several matches I got destroyed. Then I changed tactics. And lo and behold, I started racking in kills.

What did I do? Stop going in for "Max alpha" range early, and used the mech for it's intended purpose, as a Flanker and Harraser. Would use it's speed to skirt the fight, find solid locks and drop LRMS on them. Would occasionally claim a kill that way, but more often just softened them up, or forced them to change positions, making them better targets for my team.

Used the LB-X and Lasers to swat Cicadas or the like who could close on me, and discourage them from trying any mischief (admittedly, doesn't work if the other side wolf packs you, but then, even a "Optimized Mech" seldom does in that case.)

Once my LRMs were exhausted I would move into the 250 meter zone and starts flanking and exploiting weakened mechs, harassing them and forcing them to choose who to face, me, or the Stalker (insert larger mech type here), and doing mop up duty. 2 kills, and 450-ish damage were far from uncommon.

Might not set the world on fire, but if you find those stats "unacceptable" you have been min/maxxing it too long my adversarial friend!

Only thing keeping from posting stats, tbh, is that I want that account to be totally anonymous. I just prefer to have a "safe haven" where I can do my stuff without any forum/TS drama.



For the record, my K/Dr on my main account is currently 2.40, while it sits right at .89 on that account. The lack of team support, more than the mech, accounts for a large chunk of the difference, at least in my case. (Also admit, the first week I used that acct with the Phract-1X, which I did better damage, but similar W/L, K/Dr with.) My KDR took it's biggest hit using the AWS-9M which is just not in any way or form an efficient machine, no matter how you try to heat conserve. Between the inconsistent damage from they PPCs, and ridiculous heat load (and the streaks being nerfed half the time by ECM) and of course, being percieved as a bigger more dangerous target, I seldom ever got 1 kill with it.

The problem with it, the AS7K and such aren't that they are trial mechs though, it is that PGI has seriously screwed the Heat Scale, but NOT optimizing everything around 3025 tech first, then adding and balancing new tech items like DHS and ECM against an unmovable standard. When even core things like LRMs and JJs are still getting the nerf/buff Yo-yo, the issue goes far beyond trial mechs.

As it is, they have currently made MOST stock designs, especially 3025 ones, obsolete before they even launch them.

View PostHammertrial, on 28 December 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

Alright, ate lunch, Centurian Time

Also, these cadet bonuses are insane. A little over an hour playing (mainly due to the writeups afterwards, probably 45-50 minutes of actual playtime and watching Wayne's World) and I'm already at nearly 5 mil.

Have fun with it, and if you run into issues, look above for my "CN9-D Tutorial Advice". It ain't a brawler, but used right the 9D IS a very effective harraser.

#7 Adridos

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bridesmaid
  • 10,635 posts
  • LocationHiding in a cake, left in green city called New A... something.

Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:43 AM

You should've tried the Centurion. It's the best trial right now and chances are that by 10 matches, people will already figure that out and use it.

#8 TruePoindexter

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,605 posts
  • Facebook: Link
  • Location127.0.0.1

Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:43 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 28 December 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

Can't agree with you Lucy.

Are they optimal? No. But in that same Centurion, I was getting 1-2 kills virtually every match, the exceptions usually being when I had the joy of dropping in a group of morons, where we just got rolled. First several matches I got destroyed. Then I changed tactics. And lo and behold, I started racking in kills.

What did I do? Stop going in for "Max alpha" range early, and used the mech for it's intended purpose, as a Flanker and Harraser. Would use it's speed to skirt the fight, find solid locks and drop LRMS on them. Would occasionally claim a kill that way, but more often just softened them up, or forced them to change positions, making them better targets for my team.

Used the LB-X and Lasers to swat Cicadas or the like who could close on me, and discourage them from trying any mischief (admittedly, doesn't work if the other side wolf packs you, but then, even a "Optimized Mech" seldom does in that case.)

Once my LRMs were exhausted I would move into the 250 meter zone and starts flanking and exploiting weakened mechs, harassing them and forcing them to choose who to face, me, or the Stalker (insert larger mech type here), and doing mop up duty. 2 kills, and 450-ish damage were far from uncommon.

Might not set the world on fire, but if you find those stats "unacceptable" you have been min/maxxing it too long my adversarial friend!

Only thing keeping from posting stats, tbh, is that I want that account to be totally anonymous. I just prefer to have a "safe haven" where I can do my stuff without any forum/TS drama.


Indeed I can vouch that the CN9-D is surprisingly effective as a hit and run striker similar to what the Dragon is intended to be. Despite the XL engine they are surprisingly long lived in combat and while the LB10X is horrible at range shoved into your face it is quite effective.

#9 Hammertrial

    Clone

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 267 posts

Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:49 AM

View PostAdridos, on 28 December 2012 - 11:43 AM, said:

You should've tried the Centurion. It's the best trial right now and chances are that by 10 matches, people will already figure that out and use it.


I'm doing 10 of each for a total of 40 matches, then 10 in mechs i prefer after for the final 10. I love the cent 9D trial from previous experiences. It's just a nice compliment of speed, armor, and weaponry.

Interestingly, round 1 of my cent (just finished) I ran into my first sync droppers (on my team fortunately). I was actually surprised they admitted they were a premade, given my previous experiences. Perhaps there isn't as many of them as possible. Who knows.

Edited by Hammertrial, 28 December 2012 - 11:50 AM.


#10 BlackWidow

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,182 posts
  • LocationPhoenix, Arizona

Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:51 AM

As this has been discussed in many other threads, the problem with Trial mechs is they are stock from TT.

Since this game has deviated so far from TT in some aspects but remains the same in others, there is INHERENT imbalance in the game and the trial mech exemplify this.

Twitter version:
No one wants to play a mech game where you can only shoot every 10 seconds. No fun for anyone.

If you actually took a TT game, move for move and shot for shot, and simulated it in MWO the matches would last less than 1.5 minutes. No fun for anyone.

So they increased firing rate ~ 3x's TT. Which means they had to double the armor in introduce a hardpoint system. But did not triple heat sinks to counter the new firing rate.

That, my friends, it the entirety of the basis for all the balance arguments in this game. (matchmaking and VOIP are completely separate issues.)

#11 Hammertrial

    Clone

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 267 posts

Posted 28 December 2012 - 12:11 PM

View PostBlackWidow, on 28 December 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

As this has been discussed in many other threads, the problem with Trial mechs is they are stock from TT.

Since this game has deviated so far from TT in some aspects but remains the same in others, there is INHERENT imbalance in the game and the trial mech exemplify this.

Twitter version:
No one wants to play a mech game where you can only shoot every 10 seconds. No fun for anyone.

If you actually took a TT game, move for move and shot for shot, and simulated it in MWO the matches would last less than 1.5 minutes. No fun for anyone.

So they increased firing rate ~ 3x's TT. Which means they had to double the armor in introduce a hardpoint system. But did not triple heat sinks to counter the new firing rate.

That, my friends, it the entirety of the basis for all the balance arguments in this game. (matchmaking and VOIP are completely separate issues.)


I'm not just testing trial viability. I think trials will always be inferior, but they don't necessarily suck (the Raven 2X surely does though). I'm testing the new player experience as a whole. Amount of premades encountered, ECMs effect, W/L ratio, economy (in terms of how quickly c-bills are made).

Just got 4 kills in the centurion against a 4 man premade. Only one was a blatant kill steal (though i didn't know it at the time. When you shoot an atlas with two medium lasers and it explodes instantly...)

Edited by Hammertrial, 28 December 2012 - 12:12 PM.


#12 BLUPRNT

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Giant Helper
  • Giant Helper
  • 616 posts
  • LocationLake Something or Other, WA

Posted 28 December 2012 - 12:19 PM

Thank you OP for taking the time. I will be watching this with intense curiosty.
I would also say you have way to much time on your hands but you did metion you were sick.
I will need to see a note from some figure of authortity in order for you to be excused.

#13 Hammertrial

    Clone

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 267 posts

Posted 28 December 2012 - 12:22 PM

View PostBLUPRNT, on 28 December 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

Thank you OP for taking the time. I will be watching this with intense curiosty.
I would also say you have way to much time on your hands but you did metion you were sick.
I will need to see a note from some figure of authortity in order for you to be excused.


If I didn't have all of today (i might still go out and get my oil changed) I would have just broken this up into a couple day sessions.

Unlike most of the forums lately, I actually love this game and have no problem playing it for extended periods of time.

(and as it's the holidays I already requested off until New Years, so it wouldn't matter if im sick or not =P)

Edited by Hammertrial, 28 December 2012 - 12:23 PM.


#14 Joseph Mallan

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 35,216 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMallanhold, Furillo

Posted 28 December 2012 - 01:06 PM

Interesting results. Not in they were unexpected, just that they were honest. I look forward to more posts!

#15 Hammertrial

    Clone

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 267 posts

Posted 28 December 2012 - 01:20 PM

Centurion Results are up. Interestingly, while XP went way up (because I ended up with a positive KD ratio) the C-Bill results went way down. This is probably due to the cadet bonuses steadily declining over time, rather than being some sort of fixed % per match for 25 matches.

Also made some notes about premades, ECM, and mech diversity.

Going to get my oil changed hopefully, then off to the Dragon.

Edited by Hammertrial, 28 December 2012 - 01:32 PM.


#16 Adridos

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bridesmaid
  • 10,635 posts
  • LocationHiding in a cake, left in green city called New A... something.

Posted 28 December 2012 - 01:45 PM

View PostHammertrial, on 28 December 2012 - 01:20 PM, said:

Going to get my oil changed hopefully, then off to the Dragon.


My condolences to you. You won't make it past the first five matches.

Only 25 shots from UAC/5, slower than the CN9-D, easily cored, ML as a backup weapon, really big heat problems.

Are you sure you won't like to go Stalker first?

#17 hammerreborn

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 3,063 posts
  • LocationAlexandria, VA

Posted 28 December 2012 - 01:51 PM

View PostAdridos, on 28 December 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:


My condolences to you. You won't make it past the first five matches.

Only 25 shots from UAC/5, slower than the CN9-D, easily cored, ML as a backup weapon, really big heat problems.

Are you sure you won't like to go Stalker first?


I'm doing 10 of each in order. I made it through the god awful experience that was the 2X I think I can manage with the Dragon.

#18 Nathiel Surefire

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 670 posts
  • LocationQuantum State

Posted 28 December 2012 - 01:55 PM

Best of luck, I look forward to more results!

Oh, and how often do Hunchbacks show up for you? They weren't mentioned in the mechs you've seen... or are they simply non-existent? :D

#19 One Medic Army

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,985 posts
  • LocationBay Area, California

Posted 28 December 2012 - 02:01 PM

View Posthammerreborn, on 28 December 2012 - 01:51 PM, said:

I'm doing 10 of each in order. I made it through the god awful experience that was the 2X I think I can manage with the Dragon.

Unfortunately, the light mech trials are almost always complete crap.
They are almost universally both slow and hot.

#20 Wizard Steve

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,053 posts

Posted 28 December 2012 - 02:08 PM

I'm running a free account at the moment and have clocked up 10 games in the CN9-D so far. I'll post a full log but the trial CN9-D is fine. It runs hot as hell on Caustic but elsewhere, it's a perfectly fine mech. With all the whining and bleeting, I was expecting the trial experience to be awful. It really isn't; I'm having a lot of fun with it.





11 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 11 guests, 0 anonymous users