317 replies to this topic

[Kousagi]

Orzorn, on 28 December 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

You can't act like, because MWO does things differently, that you can argue for LRMs to not lock on and then act as though us arguing for them to be able to lock on is something that shouldn't happen. Its a double standard. Besides that, regardless if you want to talk about the differences between standard radar and "targeting systems", if we use the TT as a base, ECM never, not once, affected missiles.

As far as I'm concerned, from both a TT and a purely game balance perspective, ECM should not affect missiles locking on. At all. A piece of equipment should not counter an entire set of weaponry without some sort of drawback (like how stealth armor, when active, generates a huge amount of heat). Weaponry takes ammo (which can explode), hardpoints (which are limited), tonnage, and crits. ECM takes...tonnage and crits, and a very small amount at that. It is straight up wrong that it counters missiles.


Actually, NARC only works with tracking LRMs in the TT anyways. Even their currently implementation (providing tighter grouping to standard LRMs) is not TT friendly, so there is no reason to argue that we'd need special ammunition.

I never argued that LRM's should not lock on, I simply stated a fact that in TT they don't, since LRM's get tons of different guidance upgrades, most of them are counted by ECM as well. MWO made LRM's lock on, since trying to fire them at long range without a tracking guidance would be pretty hard and unfun, call it balance.

ECM effects Streak SRM's, they are missiles no?

You might also want to pull out your rule book. LRM/SRM Need a Narc equipped missile to track Narc. They cost twice the price of normal ammo and other munition types don't gain anything from narc.

Edited by Kousagi, 28 December 2012 - 01:22 PM.

[Red squirrel]

Lagfest, on 28 December 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

At first I was all for ECM. The way it was Orig.
But after Pugging for so long and seeing it absolutely destroy balance in games, I think it needs a stronger counter. and or multiple counters.

BAP, would be good to counter SOME of its effects. but not all. Otherwise everyone would mount BAP and ECM would be useless.
Now you see the issue.

And I really don't appreciate the whole "This is how TT works so they NEED to do this" comments.
The whole talking down to us like you are an expert hurts your point more than helps it.

I think there are very few crazy TT purists. Most people just understand that we already have a superbly balanced
system for electronic warfare. If the devs can come up with something better / more fun - great.
But the current ECM implementation is cheesy at best.

My opinion start from TT and adjust from there until the game works and is fun.

[I Just Ate Your Grapes Bro]

DocBach, on 28 December 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

Do you believe a game of paper, scissors, rocks where rocks beat everything is fun? That's pretty much what we have with information warfare as current with ECM's capabilities while the other electronic warfare items providing little benefit at all. The TT game rules are a basis for what I suggest as an implementation, a citation from a paragraph and an idea of what I envision they would look like in a real time game.

Do you really believe a game of paper, rock, scissors is fun at all? Do you often spend hours playing paper, rock scissors with your friends? It's pure chance, pure chance isn't fun, it's chance. The people that have fun gambling aren't the ones that leave it all up to chance, they are the ones that know how to play and beat a system (an experience you CAN get in a TT version of the game since you rolls are also pure chance but there are generally odds you can play in your favor)

MOST things aside from hardpoints and the weapon slots/ weights are NOT as they were in TT, thus negating your entire argument, if ECM was exactly as it should be in TT, it'd be worthless. Mostly because they've made the other informational tools you've mentioned useless already because they didn't release them all WITH ECM.

The problem isn't in the effectiveness of the individual piece of equipment, the problem is with the way PGI (or whomever is driving the bus) decides to RELEASE this equipment. If the ECM existed in the days where ALL you saw were LRMs raining from the skies, it'd be far from OP, it'd do exactly what you were wanting, negate all the power equipment and make the LRMS show up much less as they should.

That isn't what happened, LRMs were nerfed down because they were ridiculous with no proper counter, then the counter came and now they are all but useless if you are in a premade, and left up to CHANCE if they'll be worthless in a PUG (once again proving how unfun that whole chance business is )

Now, what will happen is; The whiners (not meaning you, you've made a well constructed argument) will eventually have things their way, ECM will be nerfed into almost worthlessness, then an ECM counter will come out and make ECM even more worthless, then people will complain about THAT tool until it gets nerfed down... It's a pattern that won't be broken until PGI wises up and starts releasing weapon systems and counterbalances together so that they can be tested/used properly.

[Orzorn]

Kousagi, on 28 December 2012 - 01:20 PM, said:

ECM effects Streak SRM's, they are missiles no?

ECM shouldn't affect them for reasons already stated, from Guardian never countering streaks to causing weapon exclusivity (lights with ECM use streaks, but if you don't have ECM you can't use streaks because you'll never be able to fire them).

It seems people have this sort of cogniteve disconnect when it comes to ECM and missiles. "Missiles were too strong, so ECM is a great idea to counter them!" If missiles were too strong, they're still too strong after ECM is in the game, it just means that ECM is now required if you don't want to play against these "too strong" missiles. If a weapon is too strong, then nerf the darn thing, don't counter it to hell and back like ECM does to missiles right now.

Quote

You might also want to pull out your rule book. LRM/SRM Need a Narc equipped missile to track Narc. They cost twice the price of normal ammo and other munition types don't gain anything from narc.

I literally said that.

Quote

Actually, NARC only works with tracking LRMs in the TT anyways.

That means that MWO is already breaking from the TT in allowing standard LRMs to track NARCs, so why even force us to use the ammunition anyways? It would just drive more people away from NARC, either that, or it wouldn't make a difference now that repair and rearm is gone. You'd pay, what, 10,000 more or so per ton of missiles, and then that would be it (since you never have to replace them)? There wouldn't be much point in that, would there?

Edited by Orzorn, 28 December 2012 - 01:33 PM.

[DocBach]

Ehrithane, on 28 December 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

MOST things aside from hardpoints and the weapon slots/ weights are NOT as they were in TT, thus negating your entire argument, if ECM was exactly as it should be in TT, it'd be worthless. Mostly because they've made the other informational tools you've mentioned useless already because they didn't release them all WITH ECM.

Equipment weight and critical size are the same as the TT - the only change is the hardpoint system, to represent that these 'Mechs aren't omnimechs. The problem with ECM being reduced to table top functionality is the equipment it is meant to defeat is woefully underpowered and worthless in MWO.

My post wasn't a call to nerf ECM, it was a call to make ALL the information warfare equipment have a use, as currently the only piece worth taking is ECM.

Ehrithane, on 28 December 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

Now, what will happen is; The whiners (not meaning you, you've made a well constructed argument) will eventually have things their way, ECM will be nerfed into almost worthlessness, then an ECM counter will come out and make ECM even more worthless, then people will complain about THAT tool until it gets nerfed down... It's a pattern that won't be broken until PGI wises up and starts releasing weapon systems and counterbalances together so that they can be tested/used properly.

I think your right. Its a pretty sad circle PGI seems to play quite a bit. A lot of bandaids for bulletwounds.

Edited by DocBach, 28 December 2012 - 01:41 PM.

[Kousagi]

In a way we do already have the narc thing i guess.. since narc does not stack with Tag or Artemis. So in a way that is a moot point to bring up. So long as they keep with standard LRM's being the only ones to work with narc... not that anyone uses narc. Though it was more of a thing to do with the suggestion to make it so narc made you perma-lock a mech. Make it a upgrade path like Artemis. Which it would be a good buff to narc, Any mech with the Narc upgrade would get LOS and a lock on any mech with narc attached to it.

Guardian being given 1 rule from Angel was a balance thing. I mean Streaks are still currently very OP vs anything without ECM cover. They need to get their nerf already.

I think the main thing that makes ECM seem powerful is the netcode. If you could hurt what you hit half the time, things would be very different. I know my stalker setup can 1 shot light mechs that i manage to get a detected hit on. I love it when the ECM ravens stop behind a mech to shoot them thinking that their ECM is some kinda magic shield ;p

Edited by Kousagi, 28 December 2012 - 01:41 PM.

[DocBach]

Kousagi, on 28 December 2012 - 01:40 PM, said:

I think the main thing that makes ECM seem powerful is the netcode. If you could hurt what you hit half the time, things would be very different. I know my stalker setup can 1 shot light mechs that i manage to get a detected hit on. I love it when the ECM ravens stop behind a mech to shoot them thinking that their ECM is some kinda magic shield ;p

Someone called me a hacker actually for one shotting a Raven with ECM that did that. C'mon guy, you parked in front of thirty SRMs and four medium lasers. I still maintain that yes, in real life, ECM should black out sensors and comms with noise, but in this game the reason its so overpowered is the fact that it does so much with no drawback, at all. Stealth Armor when it comes out specifically defeats sensors (as well as IR, so it'd show up less on heat scan vision), but creates tons of waste heat and takes up two criticals in each location - currently, ECM has no draw backs and does way more than it was intended to in conjunction with game balance ie rules that have been refined over 25 years. Streaks need to be fixed on their own right, not by overpowering ECM.

[Orzorn]

Kousagi, on 28 December 2012 - 01:40 PM, said:

Guardian being given 1 rule from Angel was a balance thing. I mean Streaks are still currently very OP vs anything without ECM cover. They need to get their nerf already.

Are you saying you think ECM should be the nerf to streaks, or that streaks need to get a nerf?

I agree streaks need a nerf, but a piece of equipment is not the way to do it, beacuse, as I said, it causes that overpowered item to become exclusive. Who do you see using streaks? Atlas D-DCs and Ravens. Rarely do I see anybody else using streaks because they would rarely get a chance to fire them, whereas the mech with ECM can switch to counter mode and then go to town.

So instead of nerfing streaks, the "counter" just made it so that only certain mechs can use them. Its even worse than before.

Quote

I think the main thing that makes ECM seem powerful is the netcode. If you could hurt what you hit half the time, things would be very different. I know my stalker setup can 1 shot light mechs that i manage to get a detected hit on. I love it when the ECM ravens stop behind a mech to shoot them thinking that their ECM is some kinda magic shield ;p

That's very true as well. Many of those 4 Raven teams would be feeling the pain if those Ravens actually took half the damage we see on our clients being dealt to them. Their status as lagshielding, invisible, streak carriers just makes it that much more frustrating to fight ECM. You can't LRM them, you can't streak them (the one thing that would help against the lag shield), and you can't even directly hit them. It basically means you're going to be under an ECM bubble for the entire game.

Then again, if ECM was like how the OP described it, then it wouldn't be so frustrating anyways (And we could actually use streak against them).

[Kousagi]

I think a good way to balance it is just to make it a double edged sword. Make it so ECM effects Every mech around it, except for itself. So ya want to jam the bad guys? well you jam friendlys as well.

[Orzorn]

Kousagi, on 28 December 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

I think a good way to balance it is just to make it a double edged sword. Make it so ECM effects Every mech around it, except for itself. So ya want to jam the bad guys? well you jam friendlys as well.

I don't understand why people feel the need to tack on all these different effects.

What is so alien or bizarre about making ECM work like described in the TT? Why does it have to work so differently? I'm okay with some slight differences for the sake of translation into real time and MWO's mechanics, but why the need to make it do all sorts of bizarre things that it never once was described as doing, let alone for a 1.5 ton, 2 crit equipment that takes no hardpoints? It doesn't make sense from a TT perspective, and it doesn't make sense even from a purely gameplay perspective.

Please, can anyone give me a reason why ECM absolutely must have something different tacked onto it that it used to not be able to do?

Edited by Orzorn, 28 December 2012 - 02:02 PM.

[DocBach]

Kousagi, on 28 December 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

I think a good way to balance it is just to make it a double edged sword. Make it so ECM effects Every mech around it, except for itself. So ya want to jam the bad guys? well you jam friendlys as well.

That'd just turn the game in to two teams completely blind with half the equipment in the game completely worthless. Kind of how it is now but even worse. ECM is suppose to not effect friendlies, but for balance sake it wasn't meant to be a stealth shield like it is in this game. As mentioned previously the actual stealth equipment has several drawbacks, like +10 heat each turn its on and taking up two criticals in every location to include the arms, legs and torsos.

[Kousagi]

DocBach, on 28 December 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

That'd just turn the game in to two teams completely blind with half the equipment in the game completely worthless. Kind of how it is now but even worse. ECM is suppose to not effect friendlies, but for balance sake it wasn't meant to be a stealth shield like it is in this game. As mentioned previously the actual stealth equipment has several drawbacks, like +10 heat each turn its on and taking up two criticals in every location to include the arms, legs and torsos.

It would make everyone blind... would be kinda funny ;p

Null sig and Stealth armor are unlike current ECM, in the fact that they hide a mech from all sensor types. So they can't be picked up by anything, and would never show up on radar. Though pretty much all the sensors are a LOS thing except for that one that picks up ground vibrations. So the only way to track a null sig/stealth armor mech is by your eye balls. The heat part also comes from the system messing with heat sinks, not the system creating the heat itself.

The whole ECM effecting radar is a canon thing, and can be argued up and down by us, but PGI thinks the same way I do as well, and its been said their main guys are huge BT fans so. I don't think they are going to go out of their way to make up new crazy stuff that didn't exist in BT in the first place.

[Orzorn]

Kousagi, on 28 December 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

The whole ECM effecting radar is a canon thing, and can be argued up and down by us, but PGI thinks the same way I do as well, and its been said their main guys are huge BT fans so. I don't think they are going to go out of their way to make up new crazy stuff that didn't exist in BT in the first place.

I'll argue in favor of the TT many times, but not this one. If ECM effected radar is canon, then I'll oppose it as much as I can. It is downright incorrect to allow an equipment like the ECM such great power with such a small package that HAS NO DRAWBACKS WHAT SO EVER.

At this point I don't even care to argue about what's TT, what's canon. Take it as though its just an honest opinion; ECM should not, and should never have, affected radar and lock on capabilities.

It effects radar in the TT, you can read that on the GECM page on Sarna. The difference is how important radar is in MWO. It allows for locking on, and locking on a huge part of LRM usage. If we allow ECM to affect radar, we will continue to counter LRMs with it, something it should not do. Same goes for SSRMs, which lock on BECAUSE of radar targeting. SSRMs and LRMs didn't use radar in the TT. LRMs didn't even lock on.

Its a case of one effect cascading because of MWO's mechanics. This is absolutely a case where it should be changed to keep with the spirit rather than the word of the rules. LRMs and SSRMs were not affected by ECM in the TT. That is 100% true. Radar was jammed by ECM in the TT. Also true. However, LRMs and SSRMs rely on radar to gain a lock in MWO. This didn't happen in the TT.

Thus, keeping the radar jamming clause directly hurts LRMs and SSRMs, despite ECM never having that capability. That is wrong.

Edited by Orzorn, 28 December 2012 - 02:29 PM.

[Kousagi]

I would only support ECM not doing anything to SSRM's and LRM's if both systems were nerfed. In their current state both are stupidly powerful vs anything without ECM cover. SSRM's are very powerful for their weight, and Both require zero skill in aiming and are free hits. LRM's deal way too much damage for their range and ease of use. They are not nearly as bad as the 2 days of Artemis hell, but they got back to being close to it. Don't even start the whole " use cover to counter LRM's " argument, No one likes playing stalemates due to everyone too scared to move cause of LRM rain.

[Orzorn]

Kousagi, on 28 December 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

I would only support ECM not doing anything to SSRM's and LRM's if both systems were nerfed. In their current state both are stupidly powerful vs anything without ECM cover. SSRM's are very powerful for their weight, and Both require zero skill in aiming and are free hits. LRM's deal way too much damage for their range and ease of use. They are not nearly as bad as the 2 days of Artemis hell, but they got back to being close to it. Don't even start the whole " use cover to counter LRM's " argument, No one likes playing stalemates due to everyone too scared to move cause of LRM rain.

I've been advocated nerfing them this entire thread, so we're good there.

LRMs should be lowered by at least .1 damage per missile, and SSRMs area already being looked at. They plan to make them have arms and legs as viable targets in addition to the torsos (currently, only torso are considered viable targets).

Both of those should help to bring missile weapons down a bit.

[DocBach]

Kousagi, on 28 December 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

Null sig and Stealth armor are unlike current ECM, in the fact that they hide a mech from all sensor types. So they can't be picked up by anything, and would never show up on radar. Though pretty much all the sensors are a LOS thing except for that one that picks up ground vibrations. So the only way to track a null sig/stealth armor mech is by your eye balls. The heat part also comes from the system messing with heat sinks, not the system creating the heat itself.

They would hide the 'Mech off IR scanning so our heat scan wouldn't pick them up in thermals because the heat sink baffles to defeat radar. But thats not the point - the point is that little piece of fluff is used to justify the fact that it takes up two criticals per location and creates heat for the sake of game balance. As of now, ECM has no drawbacks and the other electronic warfare pieces such as Narc and Beagle have no reason to exist the way they are implemented as they're a tonnage and critical sink with no benefit.

LRM's and Streak missiles need to be adjusted on their own right, LRM's should lose some damage. PGI tweaked it to where it seemed OK then they tweaked it way heavily underpowered then made it overpowered again. Then they decided instead of balancing that system they'd throw in a system that completely negated a whole support class of 'Mech and missile weapons.

[Thorqemada]

Kousagi, on 28 December 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

No one likes playing stalemates due to everyone too scared to move cause of LRM rain.

3 of 4 Maps offer very good cover in big amounts, 3 of 4 Mechclasses usually can reach speeds from 85 kph to 150kph, several Direct Fire Weapons have a bigger range than LRMs and a way way higher projectile speed and can not be countered by ECM, AMS, none of these Weapons has a 180m minimum range, none of these Weapons requires that you aim for 10 or 15 seconds at the target bcs the weapon will miss otherwise.
I stop here...

Edited by Thorqemada, 28 December 2012 - 03:07 PM.

[Lonestar1771]

I like the discussion and the OP is spot on in pointing out just one of the major flaws that MWO has, but the problem we have here is that the game is being assembled by PGI but I think IGP is calling the shots and forcing certain features down our throats. Even if that isn't the case, PGI has been unwilling to listen to feedback that is actually pertinent and useful as well as being better solutions than the band-a!ds PGI is so fond of.

Conclusion: It isn't going to happen because PGI is incapable of doing it, whether it be because IGP's iron fist, or their unwillingness to recognize good advice.

The game concept started off as a semi-rpg/squad based/mech sim with a galaxy wide battlefield, and then quickly devolved to a barebones arcade FPS with a cash shop full of knickknacks and tchotchkes. I'm surprised they haven't started requiring "credits" to make a drop and then cool downs afterwards.

Maybe that's their "Plan B"?

Edited by Lonestar1771, 28 December 2012 - 03:35 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

I agree with what you said, DosBach. The problem, though, is that in order to properly balance ECM and to boost BAP and NARC, you've got to nerf LRMs and SRMs first. Right now, you've got two different game modes:

A: No ECM where LRMs reign supreme and the boats force players to huddle behind rocks and buildlings = not fun for anyone other than the boaters

B: ECM is present thus negating LRMs for the most part, aside where idiots run around outside of the bubble, and equates to a win for the team with the most ECM = present bad situation for 8v8 and PUG stomp matches

LRMs probably need a boost in the speed department. But the fact that they are at 1.8 damage per missile and SRMs are at 2.5 damage per missile is pretty heneous. Add in the fact that Streaks are able to lock onto a target THROUGH LOS and that they don't have a minimum cone through which they can turn is pretty game breaking. For that last part, it is possible to be standing directly beside a Streak carrier and to have the missiles come out and bend 90 degrees to hit you. I'm waiting on my lasers, LBX, and PPCs to be able to do the same.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 28 December 2012 - 03:38 PM.

[Treckin]

I think the biggest obstacle to implementing some of the TT rules is that the TT theorycrafting was done with the mechanics of TT in mind.

I didnt play MW TT, I played a lot of WH40K TT though.

What I mean by this is that in the real-time MWO, certain conditions that were assumed or implied in balancing scenarios for MW TT are not going to be present or are going to be radically different in real-time MWO.

Range is a perfect example of this. Not just range of individual weapons, but sight, range of modules, range of AMS, etc.

The thing about balancing range systems in TT vs realtime is that character movement works differently in the two games.

In MWO you have the capacity to move across many different firing ranges in only a few seconds. Conversely, one can leave those ranges just as effectively.

In TT one would normally move units to a mostly stationary position and then zone the map with range. Because the enemy player could see your entire formation, it wasnt a matter of say spinning in circles around your opponent etc.

This is just something you just will have to accept - the rules are not going to translate perfectly. having ECM counter BAP or Narc or any combination of those will need to be uniquely tuned for this real-time environment.

As it is, zoning out the map is simply much harder then it was in TT games. The mechanics of the game will have to change to suite it, or the game will continue to feel awkward as hell.