317 replies to this topic

[ltwally]

Red squirrel, on 28 December 2012 - 01:15 PM, said:

...
Especially NARC is completely useless I never ever use it. (Even before ECM)
I like the idea to have it attached to a hit section and have a certain probability of incoming missles to destroy it
or to loose it when that section goes boom. I hate the implementation with a timer be it 10sec or 60sec.
When NARCed you can still get behind a building or hill and have the LRM hit the obstacle.

My very first mech in Closed Beta was a Jenner JR7-D. I purchased it for Narc. I even nick-named it for Narc. And then I tried Narc. Less than a day later, my JR7-D was refitted with Streaks. Might as well put something useful in my missile slots.

Quote

Edit: I think one reason for the ECM implementation was to nerf Streaks. So why not give us Angle ECM for that (and ignore the timeline on this item)

The proper fix for S-SRM is not ECM. The proper fix for S-SRM is to fix S-SRM.

Unfortunately, that's not a super-simple thing. In low quantities (4 to 6 tubes), S-SRM is just fine. It's only in greater numbers of tubes that it becomes over-powered.

My suggestion is to factor in some diminishing returns on S-SRM tubes beyond 4 to 6. After the 6th tube, make the groupings less tight, have it start hitting other locations (not head), have it start missing more frequently and increase re-load times. Increase those factors as more S-SRM tubes are added, and balance it when new mechs and S-SRM-4/6 become available.

[DocBach]

MadcatX, on 30 December 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

When in ECM range, MW:O automatically mutes your mic.

Tell that to single players who aren't in groups. They play the game, too.

[ltwally]

Kousagi, on 28 December 2012 - 01:20 PM, said:

You might also want to pull out your rule book. LRM/SRM Need a Narc equipped missile to track Narc. They cost twice the price of normal ammo and other munition types don't gain anything from narc.

True, but as you yourself pointed out, I believe, TT should not be the final destination.

TT is a good starting point, but should be deviated from when it makes sense. When doing so increases fun.
Homing LRM made sense, because TT "instant hit" LRM did not.

Likewise, requiring special ammo to home on Artemis, Narc and TAG doesn't really do much for fun. It just drives down profit margins after a player has already paid the price (CB, weight and space) for the extra equipment. Not fun.

ECM, on the other hand, would become more balanced if they dropped the non TT factors, and kept it the special purpose item it was intended to be. More balanced means, for everyone not running ECM -- the vast majority of mechs, more fun.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Considering C3 used comm systems in-between lances, then jamming them would be par for the game.

So if a C3 Slave system got caught in an ECM field. Static comes over the voice, music and background volumes. If a C3 Master gets caught, it blasts static across all volumes connected to each lance mate.

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 30 December 2012 - 12:53 PM.

[MadcatX]

DocBach, on 30 December 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

Tell that to single players who aren't in groups. They play the game, too.

I assume there are single players who aren't in groups that read the forums, thus I believe I did.

[DocBach]

ltwally, on 30 December 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

Likewise, requiring special ammo to home on Artemis, Narc and TAG doesn't really do much for fun. It just drives down profit margins after a player has already paid the price (CB, weight and space) for the extra equipment. Not fun.

Right now they took out rearm and repair bills, so paying for specialty ammunition is sort of a mute point at time being.

[ltwally]

Kousagi, on 28 December 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

I think a good way to balance it is just to make it a double edged sword. Make it so ECM effects Every mech around it, except for itself. So ya want to jam the bad guys? well you jam friendlys as well.

And then you wind up nothing but ECM mechs. So.. yeah, that would probably make the problem even worse.

But I'll give you credit for looking for solutions.

[ltwally]

Kousagi, on 28 December 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

I would only support ECM not doing anything to SSRM's and LRM's if both systems were nerfed. In their current state both are stupidly powerful vs anything without ECM cover. SSRM's are very powerful for their weight, and Both require zero skill in aiming and are free hits. LRM's deal way too much damage for their range and ease of use. They are not nearly as bad as the 2 days of Artemis hell, but they got back to being close to it. Don't even start the whole " use cover to counter LRM's " argument, No one likes playing stalemates due to everyone too scared to move cause of LRM rain.

I disagree.

LRMs have the potential to be powerful... if there are a number of them raining down on you, if you have no cover and no AMS, and if you don't deal with the mech firing them.

But LRM builds rarely want to engage in a brawl. Find the mech spotting for him/them, and make him regret it, and then go pound the artillery mech.

Or just hide behind a rock for 5 seconds.

S-SRM is also fine ... in small numbers. It's only when there are 8+ S-SRM tubes that it becomes over-powered. For that, I favour the law of diminishing returns, as previously stated.

[ltwally]

DocBach, on 30 December 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

Right now they took out rearm and repair bills, so paying for specialty ammunition is sort of a mute point at time being.

True, but they'll be back (if I understand correctly).

And, IMHO, the entire repair/rearm vs reward system was flawed, in that the better your equipment the lower your profits. That's opposite to the way things run in the real world, and even forgetting that, it just plain felt like punishment for doing well.

That said, that's a different discussion for a different thread. I now return you to the original topic: Information Warfare...

[Tolkien]

DocBach, on 28 December 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

We were promised a deep Information Warfare pillar where we'd have several different pieces of equipment that all provided an edge over our opponents and the other equipment, working against each other. What we got was ECM, ECM, and ECM, partially because of the fact that it was implemented with way more features then it ever had in any iteration of Battletech or MechWarrior, partially because implementation of other pieces of Information Warfare is so lackluster; ECM needs to be toned down and other components like Beagle and Narc need to be toned up.

ECM should not provide stealth 'Mech ability to an entire team...

...
The above changes would make information warfare have counters to each other, beyond just ECM, ECM, ECM. It would make it everything a useful addition to a team, but not an absolute necessity or gamebreaker.

I like what you're saying here overall, and though others have already made them, I wanted to restate the two points that stick out like a sore thumb to me.

1) TAG as a counter to ECM is a bad joke - it's a heaver system that requires active skill and coordination to use and it only counters a fraction of what ECM does.... since when is a heavier harder to use system supposed to be worse than a smaller automatic one? I feel like I am taking crazy pills when the devs suggest this.

2) Even if we do ever get the promised extra electronic warfare additions, it won't fix the biggest problem with ECM from a game balance point of view: it does too much for too little. Even if more systems are added that counter other facets of ECM, it will still remain the most valuable piece of equipment in the game ton for ton since it does so much.

As long as ECM is a 1.5 ton 2 slot piece of equipment it should have approximately as much battlefield utility as an AMS and a ton of ammo, or a small laser and a regular heatsink, or ~30 points of armor. As long as it is much better than this, it will be "OP".

[ltwally]

Personally speaking, I think Beagle should also extend basic sensor range by a goodly amount.

Though just bringing it up to TT would be nice.

[DocBach]

Just the rules that say you can detect anything in your bubble, including stuff out of LOS would make Beagle a useful addition - you could scout the ridgeline in frozen city or the caldera without exposing yourself to enemy fire, and detect if there was an ECM presence trying to jam you.

[ltwally]

DocBach, on 30 December 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

Just the rules that say you can detect anything in your bubble, including stuff out of LOS would make Beagle a useful addition - you could scout the ridgeline in frozen city or the caldera without exposing yourself to enemy fire, and detect if there was an ECM presence trying to jam you.

That would be neat.

Sometimes, I can see why TT is not followed. (LRMs are a good example.) Other times... What was PGI thinking? They say they test this stuff in-house first, but ....

[DocBach]

Just think of the amount of utility we get from a 1.5 ton Guardian ECM, and the 1.5 ton waste of space we get from an active probe? One of the biggest problems I see with information warfare is the RVN-3L Raven is that its loaded to the brim with all sorts of goodies, including Narc and Beagle, yet every customized Raven I've seen in game have had all of those tools removed, only keeping the ECM. Something is wrong with information warfare if just that piece of it is the only thing people think is worth fielding.

[DJMarine]

The maps are too small, and battles too quick and fast paced for information warfare to matter. Regardless of balance, the gameplay just isn't suited for it right now.

Edited by JayTac, 30 December 2012 - 05:28 PM.

[Dirus Nigh]

DocBoch in another thread on ECM I saw you post your suggestions. I'm glad you made a thread for them. As I said already they are very close to what I've been wanting to suggest for awhile now. You most likely did it allot better than I would have with the table top references to back you up. Good job.

The only thing I would add about ECM is an off switch. I should be able to turn my ECM off if I need to. Running it in disrupt, counter or ghost modes would give me away when they are running. For example, if want to slip past an enemy flanker by using terrain for concealment the ECM effects would worn the enemy I am close by. If I remember right you can turn equipment like ECM off in table top.

[Destrus]

If ECM remains a shroud effect then as the centre of that shroud, remove the ECM pilot's ability to lock on to anything while it is active. No more little guys running around with impunity firing streaks left and right or Atlases ignoring every missile volley except the ones they can fire.

[DocBach]

Dirus Nigh, on 30 December 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

DocBoch in another thread on ECM I saw you post your suggestions. I'm glad you made a thread for them. As I said already they are very close to what I've been wanting to suggest for awhile now. You most likely did it allot better than I would have with the table top references to back you up. Good job.

The only thing I would add about ECM is an off switch. I should be able to turn my ECM off if I need to. Running it in disrupt, counter or ghost modes would give me away when they are running. For example, if want to slip past an enemy flanker by using terrain for concealment the ECM effects would worn the enemy I am close by. If I remember right you can turn equipment like ECM off in table top.

I don't believe there was ever a reason to turn ECM off in the board game, but I think having it always on is somewhat of a weakness it needs for balance - it lets people know their sensors are going haywire, or if spotted by an active probe that the direction the enemy jamming is coming from. Part of the extra layers of strategy we could have with ECM having some inherent weakness.

[ltwally]

DocBach, on 30 December 2012 - 05:42 PM, said:

I don't believe there was ever a reason to turn ECM off in the board game, but I think having it always on is somewhat of a weakness it needs for balance - it lets people know their sensors are going haywire, or if spotted by an active probe that the direction the enemy jamming is coming from. Part of the extra layers of strategy we could have with ECM having some inherent weakness.

IRL, ECM (as well as radar, or any other active broadcast) can be detected well beyond the device's effective range.

While I do not advocating applying real-world physics to everything, in this it would make sense. Sensors should be able to detect enemy ECM (including bearing, if not range) long before they pick up the enemy mech itself.

That said, I'm thinking that ability should be limited to Beagle. Perhaps even a Pilot Module that extended Beagle's base abilities. Make ECM spottering something of a speciality.

[ltwally]

ECM is (currently) limited to 4 mech variants: 2 light mechs, 1 medium (that thinks its a light), and an assault.

Beagle is available to all mechs.


Is it just me, or does this seem backwards?

To my thinking, Beagle is something for scouts. I'd make it available to all light mechs, and Cicadas (which are confused, and should probably start seeing psychiatrists).

And I'd make ECM available to any mech -- though I'd first nerf it down to something much closer to TT.

Maybe I'm just weird.