49 replies to this topic

[Kousagi]

Dudeman3k, on 31 December 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

HAHA!!! seriously, bring your reading comprehension abilities next time.

I'm not talking about lag shield, im talking about hit boxes, and the events to why I bring it up... lol lag shield?? did even say that in the OP?? no, no i didn't hahahaha, can you read man?? do you need help??? lol

on that note, lag shield is the least of my concern when Damage isnt registering correctly throughout the entire mech.



you too, i didnt mention lag shield, read the post... assuming you can read at all.

Did ya know... That when ya hit a mech on your screen and it does no damage at all, thats called lag... Its what we call Lag shield. Also did ya know, when ya hit a mech in a spot, but it does damage somewhere else, its caused by lag... we also call this lag shield, but it still at least does damage. Crazy i know. Its a known problem, Its all caused by the netcode, its getting fixed... You also need to work on your reading comprehension it seems.

[Dudeman3k]

Kousagi, on 31 December 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

Did ya know... That when ya hit a mech on your screen and it does no damage at all, thats called lag... Its what we call Lag shield. Also did ya know, when ya hit a mech in a spot, but it does damage somewhere else, its caused by lag... we also call this lag shield, but it still at least does damage. Crazy i know. Its a known problem, Its all caused by the netcode, its getting fixed... You also need to work on your reading comprehension it seems.

lol, one more time becuase you didn't seem to catch it the first time.

"when making direct frontal damage to a raven, it registers the hit as a "rear" hit, damaging rear armor.... when armor is stripped from behind, it reads as frontal damage.... also, when frontal damage is read, paperdoll will blink with damage, but no visible damage was done. Once all rear armor has been stripped (by LRM's or SSRMs) core remains intact as rear attacks now damage frontal armor..."

wasn't lag, damage was being taken and these were the results. lol, you didn't re-read the post did you?? no, didn't think so either. get smarter plz

[Kousagi]

Dudeman3k, on 31 December 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

lol, one more time becuase you didn't seem to catch it the first time.

"when making direct frontal damage to a raven, it registers the hit as a "rear" hit, damaging rear armor.... when armor is stripped from behind, it reads as frontal damage.... also, when frontal damage is read, paperdoll will blink with damage, but no visible damage was done. Once all rear armor has been stripped (by LRM's or SSRMs) core remains intact as rear attacks now damage frontal armor..."

wasn't lag, damage was being taken and these were the results. lol, you didn't re-read the post did you?? no, didn't think so either. get smarter plz

Wait, wait, did you read at all? so.. you hit one section, and it did damage to another section right? Then ya hit the mech on your screen but did no damage? Didn't I cover that? Oh ya, I did.. its called.. Lag... Its a known problem, and is not something unique to the raven. Its been floating around since closed beta. The update to 3.4 kinda made it worse, but its been around for some time.

So please do learn to read before insulting others. In your own words " get smarter plz".....

The internet, Proving daily why the human race needs darwin back.

Edited by Kousagi, 31 December 2012 - 01:58 PM.

[Dudeman3k]

Kousagi, on 31 December 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

Wait, wait, did you read at all? so.. you did damage to one section, and it did it to another section right? Then ya hit the mech on your screen but did no damage? Didn't I cover that? Oh ya, I did.. its called.. Lag... Its a known problem, and is not something unique to the raven. Its been floating around since closed beta. The update to 3.4 kinda made it worse, but its been around for some time.

So please do learn to read before insulting others. In your own words " get smarter plz".....

The internet, Proving daily why the human race needs darwin back.

okay, let me break this down for you with your own words (I'm not trying to be a ****, but seriously you aren;t getting it, its not lag, its hit detection)

"you did damage to one section, and it did it to another section right?" - my response: Yes, it did do damage, but on the OPPOSITE side of the mech, a frontal attack should not register a rear hit (if torso twists were being used, it would have damaged the side torso's, but this was not the case). Again, the paper doll showed frontal armor blink, but the armor was stripped from behind.... not lag, hit detection issue.

"Then ya hit the mech on your screen but did no damage?" - My response: No, it did do damage, but in the complete opposite hemisphere of the mech itself.

"Didn't I cover that? Oh ya, I did." - my response - yes, yes you did.... and again, its not LAG its hit detection.

feel free to read the OP as many times as it takes to let it settle. "The internet, Proving daily why the human race needs darwin back.".. yes, you have proven this to me today.

Edited by Dudeman3k, 31 December 2012 - 02:03 PM.

[Kousagi]

Dudeman3k, on 31 December 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

okay, let me break this down for you with your own words (I'm not trying to be a ****, but seriously you aren;t getting it, its not lag, its hit detection)

"you did damage to one section, and it did it to another section right?" - my response: Yes, it did do damage, but on the OPPOSITE side of the mech, a frontal attack should not register a rear hit (if torso twists were being used, it would have damaged the side torso's, but this was not the case). Again, the paper doll showed frontal armor blink, but the armor was stripped from behind.... not lag, hit detection issue.

"Then ya hit the mech on your screen but did no damage?" - My response: No, it did do damage, but in the complete opposite hemisphere of the mech itself.

"Didn't I cover that? Oh ya, I did." - my response - yes, yes you did.... and again, its not LAG its hit detection.

feel free to read the OP as many times as it takes to let it settle. "The internet, Proving daily why the human race needs darwin back.".. yes, you have proven this to me today.

You do not seem to get it... MWO is a Server side game. Some things can be done client side however, like Hit markers on the mech, paper doll blinking, cockpit shake, and the crosshair turning red. These things can happen without you hitting the mech, due to the server not giving a **** about whats on your screen.

So on your Screen, you can nail a mech dead on, It blinks on the paper doll but you don't see any damage done. That is because On the servers version of whats going on, you flat out missed the mech, cause hes 1 meter to the right of where you aimed, cause hes moving fast. This is called LAG.

The server does not care about you, You only get a update of what the server sees, Your client asks the server if it can move, and the server itself moves you. So depending on your ping depends on how fast you get updates. Which is what causes lag shield to happen. Its the server updating you with a "out of date" version of whats happening, but the server is still up to date itself.

So if you see a light zipping across, you aim a head of it, On your screen you will miss the target but on the servers version of the game you nail the light dead on. This is called Lag shield. The same thing can happen to hitting the wrong parts of the mech too. Cause your screen is not matching up with what the server sees, Cause the Server is a head of you... This is called Lag...

So feel free the enlighten yourself on how this game works, and how LAG effects it.

Edited by Kousagi, 31 December 2012 - 02:17 PM.

[Dudeman3k]

Kousagi, on 31 December 2012 - 02:12 PM, said:

You do not seem to get it... MWO is a Server side game. Some things are done client side, like Hit markers on the mech, paper doll blinking, cockpit shake, and the crosshair turning red. This things can happen without you hitting the mech, due to the server not giving a **** about whats on your screen.

So on your Screen, you can nail a mech dead on, It blinks on the paper doll but you don't see any damage done. That is because On the servers version of whats going on, you flat out missed the mech, cause hes 1 meter to the right of where you aimed, cause hes moving fast. This is called LAG.

The server does not care about you, You only get a update of what the server sees, Your client asks the server if it can move, and the server itself moves you. So depending on your ping depends on how fast you get updates. Which is what causes lag shield to happen, is the server is updating you with a "out of date" version of whats happening, but the server is still up to date itself.

So if you see a light zipping across, you aim a head of it, On your screen you will miss the target but on the servers version of the game you nail the light dead on. This is called Lag shield. The same thing can happen to hitting the wrong parts of the mech too. Cause your screen is not matching up with what the server sees, Cause the Server is a head of you... This is called Lag...

So feel free the enlighten yourself on how this game works, and how LAG effects it.

OMG... oh my god... ill break it down one more time becuase it wouldn't feel right to leave a mentally handicapped individual uninformed.

"So on your Screen, you can nail a mech dead on, It blinks on the paper doll but you don't see any damage done. That is because On the servers version of whats going on, you flat out missed the mech, cause hes 1 meter to the right of where you aimed, cause hes moving fast. This is called LAG."

Yes, You nail the mech head on, hes infact running RIGHT at you (200m). you slap him with an AC10, 2 Med lasers, and a few SRMs in the CT. Paperdoll flashes, CT armor is now yellow, but his rear armor is completely gone... now unless he was actually running backwards the whole time, I dont see how his REAR armor was removed, but it happens, and that is what the OP states..... you keep trying to tackle this "lag issue", we get it, it exsists, thats why we all lead our targets, but this is completely different silly man. Please please please PLEASE read. or lean how to, I hear hooked-on-phonics works great.

"The server does not care about you, You only get a update of what the server sees, Your client asks the server if it can move, and the server itself moves you. So depending on your ping depends on how fast you get updates. Which is what causes lag shield to happen, is the server is updating you with a "out of date" version of whats happening, but the server is still up to date itself."

we've both been playing this since CB... and i'm sure we both agree on this, but the issue at hand isn't the net-code, its hit detection.... please read the post.

[Lucian Nostra]

Merky Merc, on 31 December 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

Leave Ravens alone!!!


Or change the craptastic 2X and 4X at least.

There's nothing wrong with the 2X except the existance of the 3L.. Used to love my 2X

The 3L is simply broken. hey yeah lets raise the engine cap and toss in ECM what could poooosssibly go wrong??

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 31 December 2012 - 02:27 PM.

[Kousagi]

Dudeman3k, on 31 December 2012 - 02:19 PM, said:

OMG... oh my god... ill break it down one more time becuase it wouldn't feel right to leave a mentally handicapped individual uninformed.

"So on your Screen, you can nail a mech dead on, It blinks on the paper doll but you don't see any damage done. That is because On the servers version of whats going on, you flat out missed the mech, cause hes 1 meter to the right of where you aimed, cause hes moving fast. This is called LAG."

Yes, You nail the mech head on, hes infact running RIGHT at you (200m). you slap him with an AC10, 2 Med lasers, and a few SRMs in the CT. Paperdoll flashes, CT armor is now yellow, but his rear armor is completely gone... now unless he was actually running backwards the whole time, I dont see how his REAR armor was removed, but it happens, and that is what the OP states..... you keep trying to tackle this "lag issue", we get it, it exsists, thats why we all lead our targets, but this is completely different silly man. Please please please PLEASE read. or lean how to, I hear hooked-on-phonics works great.

"The server does not care about you, You only get a update of what the server sees, Your client asks the server if it can move, and the server itself moves you. So depending on your ping depends on how fast you get updates. Which is what causes lag shield to happen, is the server is updating you with a "out of date" version of whats happening, but the server is still up to date itself."

we've both been playing this since CB... and i'm sure we both agree on this, but the issue at hand isn't the net-code, its hit detection.... please read the post.

So, after you nailed him with that barrage, did he turn his rear armor to you? Cause your screen is going to be lagging behind what the server sees. So If you shot, and the servers says at this point his rear armor is facing you, then you hit him there, even though on your screen hes front is still facing you. This happens a lot, and is not something just the raven has. So most ravens have about 10 points on their rear, so maybe just your AC 10 hit it. As the only Hit detection bug I've seen myself is SRM's not doing any damage at all when fired in mass.

So, unless you are doing controlled tests with a team mate, You can't say its a pure hit detection problem. Lag is the most likely case of what you are talking about.

[Fred013]

I do not doubt for a second that the Raven 3L's hitbox is broken. I do not doubt the existence of the lagshield. I do not think ecm is underpowered, quite the opposite. There are simply too many occasions when people say they alpha a raven and it lives, that it must be true. All these events happen. It's just I never seem to experience any of these cheaty bonuses in my raven. ECM helps, But I am not invincible. If I stop in front of an atlas, I die.

[Roland]

Something is most certainly weird about the Raven's hitboxes. I'm not sure exactly what the issue is yet, but something is strange about it compared to even other fast moving light mechs. It seems to be able to take far more punishment.

[Araara]

Kousagi, on 31 December 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

So, after you nailed him with that barrage, did he turn his rear armor to you? Cause your screen is going to be lagging behind what the server sees. So If you shot, and the servers says at this point his rear armor is facing you, then you hit him there, even though on your screen hes front is still facing you. This happens a lot, and is not something just the raven has. So most ravens have about 10 points on their rear, so maybe just your AC 10 hit it. As the only Hit detection bug I've seen myself is SRM's not doing any damage at all when fired in mass.

So, unless you are doing controlled tests with a team mate, You can't say its a pure hit detection problem. Lag is the most likely case of what you are talking about.

lagshield issue would be consistent with most light mechs moving at a specific speed and in a specific direction. You'd notice the same observations of hit detection issue on other light mechs if that were the case.

In his case, and in many other cases, it seems the raven really does have hitbox detection issue. And like someone pointed out, it might be due to the XL engine. Further testing required.

If you guys REALLY feel like you need to prove your point, why not just go and test it out in a game. Have a 2 man premade drop with 2 ravens, 1 standard and 1 excel engine. park yourselves in front of each other and shoot yourselves at different angles.

Screenshot, ???, profit.




edit for typo

Edited by Araara, 31 December 2012 - 02:45 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Symptoms of Missing Damage Syndrome, or MDS, include, but are not limited to, damage displacement, damage non-existence, or fractional damage received.

I actually have video proof of damage displacement, though I was in a Cataphract at the time. (http://youtu.be/XHZxUVrc_Uc?t=18s) I set the link to just before the hit, but you can manually set it to 18 seconds in and watch what happens. Hit in the front by LRMs but took rear torso damage. It was weird enough I remarked about it on coms. I am not so sure it is a Raven specific issue in this case.

The bigger issue is when damage either does not happen despite a red-flash on reticule, or when you hit a target full on, with no possibility for it to not register, but only does 1/4 of the damage inflicted. For example, hitting a stationary RVN with two gauss rifles, a combined total of 30 damage, only to watch as its side torso goes from pristine to light yellow. Even if a single gauss connected it would do more damage then that to the side torso of the mech,

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 31 December 2012 - 02:53 PM.

[JP Josh]

hehehehehehhe killing a raven with a erppc must be a golden then lol

[Dudeman3k]

Kousagi, on 31 December 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

So, after you nailed him with that barrage, did he turn his rear armor to you? Cause your screen is going to be lagging behind what the server sees. So If you shot, and the servers says at this point his rear armor is facing you, then you hit him there, even though on your screen hes front is still facing you. This happens a lot, and is not something just the raven has. So most ravens have about 10 points on their rear, so maybe just your AC 10 hit it. As the only Hit detection bug I've seen myself is SRM's not doing any damage at all when fired in mass.

So, unless you are doing controlled tests with a team mate, You can't say its a pure hit detection problem. Lag is the most likely case of what you are talking about.

dude, seriously, quit it with the "lag" preaching, we KNOW THERES LAG. this isn't a lag issue, its a hit box issue. You are trying to bring up a completely different issue (a known issue by us all). The net-code is not the direct result of a head-on engagement and rear armor being effected. A raven cannot do a 180 degree torso twist dude. it isn't lag. again, its HIT BOX... dear god you are the prime example of your own words "The internet, Proving daily why the human race needs darwin back."... but in this case, you need more than just darwin. You need to go back to school bro.

[Kousagi]

Dudeman3k, on 31 December 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

dude, seriously, quit it with the "lag" preaching, we KNOW THERES LAG. this isn't a lag issue, its a hit box issue. You are trying to bring up a completely different issue (a known issue by us all). The net-code is not the direct result of a head-on engagement and rear armor being effected. A raven cannot do a 180 degree torso twist dude. it isn't lag. again, its HIT BOX... dear god you are the prime example of your own words "The internet, Proving daily why the human race needs darwin back."... but in this case, you need more than just darwin. You need to go back to school bro.

Maybe, just maybe you need to look up at the other post that just come up. They are looking at this objectively, One even Proves a hit detection bug. Guy takes 8 LRM's to his front and does minor damage to his rear CT. Though guess what, its LRM's and a non-raven.

You how ever come on to the forums spouting off about ravens, listing stuff that sounds exactly like the lag shield that everyone whines about. You even named your thread after the lag shield whine threads. Plus, How do you know for 100% fact that its not a lag problem? One other person in here said something close to your statement, but said it was with LRM's, which another post, with video can confirm theres something odd with LRM's at times.

Plus, you seem mad... clam down broski. Test it before you rage on the forums about it. If the ravens really do have hit detection problems then it will happen all the time. Though not many people are saying a thing about ravens and hit detection, other then the common lag shield problems with light mechs.

[Lykaon]

Dudeman3k, on 31 December 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

lol, one more time becuase you didn't seem to catch it the first time.

"when making direct frontal damage to a raven, it registers the hit as a "rear" hit, damaging rear armor.... when armor is stripped from behind, it reads as frontal damage.... also, when frontal damage is read, paperdoll will blink with damage, but no visible damage was done. Once all rear armor has been stripped (by LRM's or SSRMs) core remains intact as rear attacks now damage frontal armor..."

wasn't lag, damage was being taken and these were the results. lol, you didn't re-read the post did you?? no, didn't think so either. get smarter plz

What was your method of testing?

If this conclusion was drawn during "normal" combat then "lagshield" could be the cause.If however you managed an 8 v 8 synchro drop and tested various weapons at various angles and ranges while firing on a stationary and moving raven and had quantifyable results under a controled experiment you may be on to something.

If however it was just some match against a raven when you noticed odd events did you...

Record your ping
Record the target's ping
Note the map in the event of it being linked to specific enviorments
What was your average frames per second performance during the battle?

Have you tried piloting a Raven? you may have better results collecting data on the target side of the exchange.Being the target allows you more control over observing hits because you can pretty much decide what angle to present as a target and at what speed you are moving at.

To close...this is still BETA and this is exactally what we are suppose to be looking for.

With the abundance of Ravens in matches as of late I doubt PGI has a shortage of metrics on ravens ECM or streaks.

[Pariah Devalis]

...actually, by and large I was aiming to defend the OP in demonstrating damage displacement happens, and to shut you up from regurgitating the lag argument when the OP was clearly not talking about a lag issue by demonstrating that it happens even without a lag induced cause. This is not the only time I saw damage displacement and it usually happens with direct fire weapons for me, but it is the only time I recorded it.

However, the damage displacement is not limited to the RVN. Yet due to issues with its hit box locations, Ravens seem to magnify the events. Either there are spaces in between hit boxes, or the parts only register partial hits for some reason. In any case, they seem to be the number one standout for the bug.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 31 December 2012 - 03:35 PM.

[Sinnersaix]

I suggest AC/20, Gauss, PPC and TAG guided LRM. i killed 3 Ravens in a 8v8 Match with my Muro-Gauss, encountered them all together. When you know how to hit them they are easy. And when you hit them you hurt them realy hard.

Legendkiller-Maneuver works good for those Fastmovers

[PiemasterXL]

It's not a raven but CAWWWWWWWWWW

[Dudeman3k]

Kousagi, on 31 December 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

Maybe, just maybe you need to look up at the other post that just come up. They are looking at this objectively, One even Proves a hit detection bug. Guy takes 8 LRM's to his front and does minor damage to his rear CT. Though guess what, its LRM's and a non-raven.

You how ever come on to the forums spouting off about ravens, listing stuff that sounds exactly like the lag shield that everyone whines about. You even named your thread after the lag shield whine threads. Plus, How do you know for 100% fact that its not a lag problem? One other person in here said something close to your statement, but said it was with LRM's, which another post, with video can confirm theres something odd with LRM's at times.

Plus, you seem mad... clam down broski. Test it before you rage on the forums about it. If the ravens really do have hit detection problems then it will happen all the time. Though not many people are saying a thing about ravens and hit detection, other then the common lag shield problems with light mechs.

and my test method:

you dont need a synced drop to test this effect, as you dont need to go to gym to get "buff", here is what I did.

Using my L3 (55 ping with XL engine) run stright toward enemy positions at the beginning of match (as no one starts behind you) first enemy I encounted was a Cataphract (x2 ac10's, medium lasers). while running STRAIGHT (as to where even the stupid ones dont get confused) STRAIGHT at the opponent (head on, NOT strafing or torso twisting) I took what he was throwing at me. I did NOT encounter any other mechs during the first hits, it was just him as it was the first pass (going STRAIGHT at him, again). My results were as what OP suggests. my rear armor was destroyed, I had NO rear armor after taking the hits, but my front was fine, yellow CT.

with this, it is clearly NOT a lag issue. if lag governs the polarity of bullet orbit around the game mechanics, this game is ******. And yes, I also know about the LRM's, and this just proves its not limited to LRMS or SRMs. Ballistics seem to do the very same effect.

is this problem LIMITED to the raven?? no, but I experience this much much much more often in my raven than I do in any other mech (my cicada also gets this bug frequently).

So, bottom line?? this isn't lag, Kousagi. Lag wont displace a mechs location from in front to behind with distances greater than 400m

now, my second test (this one will need more playing around with, as to i think this may address the issue and a warranted fix):

in my raven 4X (standard 210 engine) repeat the same as test 1. Encountered dragon as first opponent "fang" UAC5 moded. took hits, again stright on. blew up. no front armor. rear was intact.

repeated.

took a few PPC's head on, blew up. rear intact.

What I have noticed was with my XL engine builds, the hit-box detection is a bit screwy.

these were my finds.

Edited by Dudeman3k, 31 December 2012 - 03:50 PM.