89 replies to this topic

[Davers]

Erik Hollister, on 03 January 2013 - 06:13 PM, said:

Actually, no, I don't want to get rid of ECM, but thanks for nothing. I had hoped that people would actually think about what ECM SHOULD do and not what it DOES.

If it jams electronics, then it SHOULD jam it for both sides. If it leaves one side unscathed, that suggests the techs on that side have figured out a way to counter it... which further suggests that the enemy techs should be able to figure the same thing.

SO, basically, to use your phrasing, you are just another "I like ECM as it is and won't listen to any legitimate suggestions on how to improve it for everyone involved" guy. If you don't have anything constructive to add, feel free to troll elsewhere.

For starters, I put my suggestions about changing ECM in the Suggestion forum.

Sorry, I think the idea of adding a 'griefing' mech that can disable your own team as much as the enemy team to be a really dumb idea.

[Rhent]

Erik Hollister, on 31 December 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

I REALLY would like someone to explain to me why ECM has all the superpowers that it does. Seriously, how does it work? Its abilities have been well documented by rant after rant, but I'm talking about how PRECISELY would ECM work in the context of the battletech world?

So this 1.5ton device emits a field that extends a couple hundred meters out. The name Electronic Counter Measures leads one to believe that it COUNTERS ELECTRONICS inside of its range.

So, please explain the following...

How does it effect the targeting system of a mech outside its broadcast range?

How does it effect the electronics of the enemy mechs and yet leave the friendly mechs completely unscathed?

If its targeting electronics, why do our communications still function... aren't they solid-state:) ?

I'm sure many of you can add questions such as these that shed more light on this ridiculous piece of equipment. In short, this item SHOULD NOT FUNCTION THE WAY IT DOES.

I have no problem leaving ECM in the game, but fix it. If its on, it should effect EVERYONE in its range.

A mech outside the range of the ECM should still be able to lock on, BUT LRMs/SSRMS should be effected once they enter the field, lessening their effectiveness. A guided missle grouping should scatter somewhat once it enters the field, showering the area with explosives, hitting enemy, friend, and landscape with impunity. It should NOT effect the ability to target... we have laser targeting NOW... is that lostech?

SO, leave it in the game, but make it realistic. As it is now, you might as well go ahead and introduce magic wands and unicorns to this mess.

It's because Paul took his design lessons from the Jay Wilson Institute of Game Design.

[Kaijin]

Davers, on 03 January 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

For starters, I put my suggestions about changing ECM in the Suggestion forum.

Sorry, I think the idea of adding a 'griefing' mech that can disable your own team as much as the enemy team to be a really dumb idea.

I think the idea of adding a piece of equipment capable of disabling the enemy team was a really dumb idea. How about it doesn't do that, and then it wouldn't be a 'griefing' mech for either team.

[Kousagi]

Erik Hollister, on 03 January 2013 - 06:13 PM, said:

Actually, no, I don't want to get rid of ECM, but thanks for nothing. I had hoped that people would actually think about what ECM SHOULD do and not what it DOES.

If it jams electronics, then it SHOULD jam it for both sides. If it leaves one side unscathed, that suggests the techs on that side have figured out a way to counter it... which further suggests that the enemy techs should be able to figure the same thing.

SO, basically, to use your phrasing, you are just another "I like ECM as it is and won't listen to any legitimate suggestions on how to improve it for everyone involved" guy. If you don't have anything constructive to add, feel free to troll elsewhere.

People not killing friendly units with their own jamming is not them Countering their own jamming...They just don't jam their own freq's but to jam enemy freq's is easy as well. Any system setup to jam freqs can listen for stuff to jam. So if a Freq breaks a certain power limit, it gets jammed. Though just to put this slightly in to prospective for ya, the freq range for Radios is 3khz to 300ghz, not sure what the lower limit is are breaking them up but we at least can handle 1khz difference. So there is a crap ton of them to use. ( note, there is 1,000khz in 1 mhz and 1000mhz in 1 ghz )

Theres tons to jamming that is not modeled in MWO cause it can get really complex really fast. They got it mostly right while keeping the programing simple.

Edited by Kousagi, 03 January 2013 - 06:39 PM.

[Davers]

Kaijin, on 03 January 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

I think the idea of adding a piece of equipment capable of disabling the enemy team was a really dumb idea. How about it doesn't do that, and then it wouldn't be a 'griefing' mech for either team.

My point is that the OP's suggestions would make ECM a liability that you wouldn't want on your team. Imagine...


The match starts, and everyone is disrupted. No one can communicate, or even see each other on the radar. The lights run off, but no one cares since you can't even know where they are once they leave LOS. They can't TAG anyone, or target any mechs or even send messages, since they are affected by their own ECM. Back at base, everyone is trying to get away from their own ECM units. Once everyone is clear, then people can start communicating, but not to the ECM units, who are on their own.

Yes...this is a great improvement over the current system...

Oh I forgot, no one would pilot ECM units at all since they wouldn't be allowed to carry weapons.
But the OP thinks this is a reasonable discussion about ECM.

Edited by Davers, 03 January 2013 - 06:58 PM.

[Felix]

Davers, on 03 January 2013 - 06:57 PM, said:

My point is that the OP's suggestions would make ECM a liability that you wouldn't want on your team. Imagine...


The match starts, and everyone is disrupted. No one can communicate, or even see each other on the radar. The lights run off, but no one cares since you can't even know where they are once they leave LOS. They can't TAG anyone, or target any mechs or even send messages, since they are affected by their own ECM. Back at base, everyone is trying to get away from their own ECM units. Once everyone is clear, then people can start communicating, but not to the ECM units, who are on their own.

Yes...this is a great improvement over the current system...

Oh I forgot, no one would pilot ECM units at all since they wouldn't be allowed to carry weapons.
But the OP thinks this is a reasonable discussion about ECM.

Unless of course they were smart and switched the ECM off until it was needed.

Using it as an umbrella to let the team slip in, then when everyone wants to engage they have to flip it back off so that their allies can lock, use radar, ect

[Davers]

Felix, on 03 January 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:

Unless of course they were smart and switched the ECM off until it was needed.

Using it as an umbrella to let the team slip in, then when everyone wants to engage they have to flip it back off so that their allies can lock, use radar, ect

OP suggested ECM units should not be allowed to carry weapons. That Atlas is a 100 ton ECM jammer only.
There may be some good ECM change ideas out there, but not in this thread.

Edited by Davers, 03 January 2013 - 07:04 PM.

[Felix]

Davers, on 03 January 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

OP suggested ECM units should not be allowed to carry weapons. That Atlas is a 100 ton ECM jammer only.

I was addressing the 'jam both sides' argument not the no weapons one.

Pointing out that if people with ECM jammed both sides they could just flip to the disrupt mode to be smart...

Then again, asking ECMers to be smart, kinda asking a lot there... xD

Edit: Not to mention that variant of the atlas? Not even supposed to have an ECM unit, PGI is just stupid

Edited by Felix, 03 January 2013 - 07:09 PM.

[Kaijin]

Davers, on 03 January 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

OP suggested ECM units should not be allowed to carry weapons. That Atlas is a 100 ton ECM jammer only.
There may be some good ECM change ideas out there, but not in this thread.

So don't put it on an Atlas,

[Davers]

When people complain about ECM what they are really complaining about is ECM Ravens, Commandos, and Cicadas. No one has a problem keeping TAG on Atlases, or shooting them for that matter.

ECM complaints are mostly netcode complaints.

[BlackBeltJones]

I would hope it could be agreed that emitting a 180m wide electrical field would require a huge amount of power (power that I assume is not latentent power currently unused by non-ECM mechs) and produce at least modest heat. It is presently the case that ECM has no drawbacks and I would offer that a heat factor or an explosive element or a speed reduction would be valid and reasonable drawbacks for the ECM equipped mech.

[XSerjo]

Davers, on 03 January 2013 - 07:07 PM, said:

When people complain about ECM what they are really complaining about is ECM Ravens, Commandos, and Cicadas. No one has a problem keeping TAG on Atlases, or shooting them for that matter.

ECM complaints are mostly netcode complaints.

Agree. And SSRM + ECM -> Raven/Commando - lots of complaints. Bad netcode makes SSRM the most effective weapon for light against lights.
So, SSRM should be useles on ECM carrier - it will be more balanced.

[Strum Wealh]

If it is actually operating as the Devs described, then it is generally doing more-or-less what it should be doing.

Quote

When your Mech is disrupted by an enemy ECM:

• You will not know where your teammates are, and they won’t know where you are, unless you have direct line of sight to each other.
  
• You cannot share any targeting data with the rest of your team, and vice versa.
  
• Your Beagle Active Probe ceases to function.
  
• You cannot achieve any missile locks.
  
• Your TAG laser can still fire but provides no bonuses.
  
• Your battlegrid and targeting information will flicker.

From Total Warfare, pg. 134:
"Active probes cannot penetrate the ECM’s area of effect. The probing unit would notice that it is being jammed, however."
"ECM blocks the effects of Artemis IV fire control systems. Artemis-equipped launchers may be fired as normal missiles through the ECM..."
"Missiles equipped to home in on an attached Narc pod lose the... bonus for that system if the pods themselves lie within an ECM 'bubble'."
"ECM has the effect of 'cutting off' any C3-equipped unit from its network. If a C3 master unit is isolated from the network because it ventures inside the ECM radius, the entire portion of the network below it is effectively shut off."
"The ECM suite does not affect other scanning and targeting devices, such as TAG and targeting computers."

From TRO 3050 Revised, pg 196:
"The Guardian emits a broad-band signal that interferes with all sonar, radar, UV, IR, and magscan sensors, thus protecting all units in a radius of up to 180 meters by projecting a "cloak" to its enemies. Enemy long-range sensors can find vehicles and 'Mechs within the curtain, but the Guardian obscures the reading and prevents identification. By the time the enemy enters visual range, sensors can sometimes override the jamming, but by this time most pilots rely on their own eyes to track the opposition."

Also, the Guardian ECM Suite apparently includes an integral ECCM capacity (the operation of which is described inTactical Operations, pgs. 224-225), which accounts for the "counter mode" implemented in MWO.

In conclusion: MWO's implementation of ECM is indeed potent, but the abilities exhibited thus far do generally have a basis in BT canon or are logical and intuitive consequences thereof.

Edited by Strum Wealh, 03 January 2013 - 09:14 PM.

[Kaijin]

Strum Wealh, on 03 January 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:

[color=#959595]If ECM is actually operating [/color]as the Devs described[color=#959595], then it is generally doing more-or-less what it should be doing.[/color]
Quote
<p class="blockquote" style="margin: 0px; padding: 10px; font-size: 12px; border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-right-width: 2px; border-right-style: solid; border-right-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-bottom-width: 2px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-left-radius: 0px; border-top-right-radius: 0px; border-bottom-right-radius: 5px; border-bottom-left-radius: 5px; background-color: rgb(17, 17, 17); color: rgb(149, 149, 149); font-family: HelveticaNeue-Light, 'Helvetica Neue Light', 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;">
When your Mech is disrupted by an enemy ECM:

• You will not know where your teammates are, and they won’t know where you are, unless you have direct line of sight to each other.
  
• You cannot share any targeting data with the rest of your team, and vice versa.
  
• Your Beagle Active Probe ceases to function.
  
• You cannot achieve any missile locks.
  
• Your TAG laser can still fire but provides no bonuses.
  
• Your battlegrid and targeting information will flicker.

[color=#959595]From [/color]Total Warfare[color=#959595], pg. 134:[/color]
[color=#959595]"[/color]Active probes[color=#959595] cannot penetrate the ECM’s area of effect. The probing unit would notice that it is being jammed, however."[/color]
[color=#959595]"ECM blocks the effects of [/color]Artemis IV[color=#959595] fire control systems. Artemis-equipped launchers may be fired as normal missiles through the ECM..."[/color]
[color=#959595]"Missiles equipped to home in on an attached [/color]Narc[color=#959595] pod lose the... bonus for that system if the pods themselves lie within an ECM 'bubble'."[/color]
[color=#959595]"ECM has the effect of 'cutting off' any [/color]C3[color=#959595]-equipped unit from its network. If a C3 master unit is isolated from the network because it ventures inside the ECM radius, the entire portion of the network below it is effectively shut off."[/color]
[color=#959595]"The ECM suite does not affect other scanning and targeting devices, such as [/color]TAG[color=#959595] and [/color]targeting computers[color=#959595]."[/color]

[color=#959595]From [/color]TRO 3050 Revised[color=#959595], pg 196:[/color]
[color=#959595]"[/color]The Guardian emits a broad-band signal that interferes with all sonar, radar, UV, IR, and magscan sensors, thus protecting all units in a radius of up to 180 meters by projecting a "cloak" to its enemies.[color=#959595] Enemy long-range sensors can find vehicles and 'Mechs within the curtain, but the Guardian obscures the reading and prevents identification. By the time the enemy enters visual range, sensors can sometimes override the jamming, but by this time most pilots rely on their own eyes to track the opposition."[/color]

[color=#959595]Also, the Guardian ECM Suite apparently includes an integral [/color]ECCM[color=#959595] capacity (the operation of which is described in [/color]Tactical Operations[color=#959595], pgs. 224-225), which accounts for the "counter mode" implemented in MWO.[/color]

[color=#959595]In conclusion: MWO's implementation of ECM is indeed potent, but the abilities exhibited thus far do generally have a basis in BT canon or are logical and intuitive consequences thereof.[/color]

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1662715

[Davers]

Strum Wealh, on 03 January 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:

Dude, get all those color tags out of your post so it is legible!!

[Davers]

While it's true that the ECM abilities can logically be extrapolated from it's description, in TT they did not make all those leaps in logic. LRMs and streaks still worked, but at an older tech level. They were not just flatly countered and required to use TAG to function at all.

My suggestion was that since ECM countered the basic functions of some weapons, then TAG, NARC, and BAP should act as counters to ECM.

http://mwomercs.com/...to-counter-ecm/

[Strum Wealh]

Kaijin, on 03 January 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1662715

Quote

This is contradictory. LRMs, Artemis or otherwise, cannot be fired as normal missiles through the ECM in MWO. Streaks employ a targeting computer in canon, though they have been transformed into locking weapons in MWO. What I'm seeing from your quoted material is that ECM should not be preventing locks - only lock-sharing within it's radius.

What ECM is capable of doing (per TRO 3050) is jamming the BattleMech's various sensors to a much greater degree than the standard EW equipment built into all 'Mechs; a 'Mech within the Guardian's sphere of influence (whose secondary effects evidently extend beyond the range of the primary effects) cannot produce a clear weapon lock if its Targeting-Tracking System (TTS) cannot clearly see the target.

Of course, this would not prevent one from dumb-firing LRMs and SRMs into/through an ECM field, nor would it prevent one from pointing a TAG laser toward the Guardian-equipped unit - though, both TAG and Artemis are stated to use IR laser designators, and the Guardian is specifically stated to be able to interfere with both IR sensors and data links, so it makes sense that the Guardian should have some effect against the former as well as the latter.

As Streak missiles depend on getting a solid weapon lock to fire, the Guardian's ability to interfere with an opponent's sensors and TTS - thus making the acquisition of such a weapon lock more difficult - should logically have some effect against Streak-equipped opponents; the 'Mech cannot lock onto what it cannot sufficiently see.

Apparently, PGI took both the BT gameplay rules and the BT backstory - all of it canon - into consideration when designing their implementation of ECM, and evidently the Devs feel that what they've got is an acceptable combination of (or compromise between, if one prefers) TT rules, fluff, and real-time gameplay.

[Kaijin]

Strum Wealh, on 03 January 2013 - 09:39 PM, said:

............

would not prevent one from dumb-firing LRMs and SRMs into/through an ECM field
...........
evidently the Devs feel that what they've got is an acceptable combination of (or compromise between, if one prefers) TT rules, fluff, and real-time gameplay.

If LRMs got the speed boost that all the other weapons got (being able to fire and hit 3 times as often as they did in TT), then dumbfiring MIGHT be effective. But surely you know LRMs in MWO are slower than a light mech. How is this an acceptable combination or compromise between TT rules, fluff, and real-time gameplay?

Edited by Kaijin, 03 January 2013 - 09:54 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

Kaijin, on 03 January 2013 - 09:54 PM, said:

If LRMs got the speed boost that all the other weapons got (being able to fire and hit 3 times as often as they did in TT), then dumbfiring MIGHT be effective. But surely you know LRMs in MWO are slower than a light mech. How is this an acceptable combination or compromise between TT rules, fluff, and real-time gameplay?

Well, considering that canon LRMs come at 120 missiles per metric ton (1000 kg), a single canon LRM weighs 8.3 kg - the same as the Redeye shoulder-launched missile used in the Vietnam War.
The Redeye had a flight speed of 580 m/s (2088 kph, or Mach 1.7).

Likewise, canon SRMs come at 100 missiles per metric ton, which works out to 10 kg per missile - the same as the Stinger shoulder-launched missile, which made its debut in the Falklands War and had a flight speed of 750 m/s (2700 kph, or Mach 2.2).

I had long ago proposed these very velocities for the missiles, as they are realistic and (to the best of my knowledge) no canon 'Mech has broken 100 m/s (360 kph), much less broken the sound barrier.

Still, the issue you've cited in the quoted post is not an issue with the functionality of ECM, but with the missiles' flight speeds being unrealistically slow...

[Erik Hollister]

Davers...

I'm not adding of your quotes because there is just too much there to trash.

Where did I say I wanted ECM to completely disable both sides? Seriously, where? What I've stated is that I'd like it to make sense, not be taken out of the game or nerfed completely to death as some would have it.

You seem to have come into this thread with the preset notion that the OP (me) hates the idea of ECM, and I don't. I just want it to make sense, as I've stated.

Why would it completely disable communications on both sides, when it doesn't disable them now? Some of the other posters have suggested that that is a current capability of ECM, but I didn't leap on that. As I recall, mechs have the capability of laser communication (ie. somewhat like fiberoptics of today)... don't think ecm breaks that (though LoS would). Even so, I'm not suggesting they kill comms.

What I am suggesting is that if it jams the targeting capabilities of the enemy, it probably should do the same for the friendlies. It seems that what the ECM crowd likes is the ability to pilot their 4 mechs into battle with a ridiculous advantage over the enemy at the cost of 1.5 tons.

ECM as it currently functions doesn't make sense to me and the majority of others (I'd bet), and it's bad for gameplay. If it wasn't a huge advantage, why do I typically see 2-4 ecm mechs per battle?

As far as putting this thread in the suggestion area of the forums... I get the sneaking suspicion that the devs don't really read them much, or they wouldn't make the decisions they do.