89 replies to this topic

[Kaijin]

Strum Wealh, on 03 January 2013 - 10:19 PM, said:

Well, considering that canon LRMs come at 120 missiles per metric ton (1000 kg), a single canon LRM weighs 8.3 kg - the same as the Redeye shoulder-launched missile used in the Vietnam War.
The Redeye had a flight speed of 580 m/s (2088 kph, or Mach 1.7).

Likewise, canon SRMs come at 100 missiles per metric ton, which works out to 10 kg per missile - the same as the Stinger shoulder-launched missile, which made its debut in the Falklands War and had a flight speed of 750 m/s (2700 kph, or Mach 2.2).

I had long ago proposed these very velocities for the missiles, as they are realistic and (to the best of my knowledge) no canon 'Mech has broken 100 m/s (360 kph), much less broken the sound barrier.

Still, the issue you've cited in the quoted post is not an issue with the functionality of ECM, but with the missiles' flight speeds being unrealistically slow...

As have I

But the issue I cited is an issue with the functionality of ECM, as it prevents locks (without TAG) in MWO, which has no basis in the TT rules. Further, this refusal on the part of the devs to acknowledge that missles go really fast really makes the argument that they haven't the slightest clue...which doesn't bode well for MWO's longevity.

[Erik Hollister]

Davers, on 03 January 2013 - 06:57 PM, said:

My point is that the OP's suggestions would make ECM a liability that you wouldn't want on your team. Imagine...


The match starts, and everyone is disrupted. No one can communicate, or even see each other on the radar. The lights run off, but no one cares since you can't even know where they are once they leave LOS. They can't TAG anyone, or target any mechs or even send messages, since they are affected by their own ECM. Back at base, everyone is trying to get away from their own ECM units. Once everyone is clear, then people can start communicating, but not to the ECM units, who are on their own.

Yes...this is a great improvement over the current system...

Oh I forgot, no one would pilot ECM units at all since they wouldn't be allowed to carry weapons.
But the OP thinks this is a reasonable discussion about ECM.

You sure like making stuff up, dontcha bro?

I don't remember typing in that I believe they shouldn't be allowed to carry weapons...
I don't remember suggesting that TAG should stop functioning....
I don't recall suggesting that communication should stop working... (although many others have hinted at it)

Right now, friendly ECM units don't show up on your radar unless you have them in line of sight. Why is this? If ECM just
blocks out enemy freqs, why can't I see my comrade?

One of the fellas posted a link to a great thread that starts with how to fix ECM, BAP, etc. It looked really good and was based upon the playtesting done by FASA. Its balanced and should be implemented in MW:O.

You could read it ( the link is on page 3 of this thread, I believe) or you could continue to lash out and make stuff up.
Either way, I hope you have a Happy New Year.

[Kristov Kerensky]

There's a couple of links and actual cut/pastes of how the Guardian system works in this thread. What I don't see is anything covering how targetting systems work in TT, nor how the target sharing systems work in TT.

TT..if you can see it, you can target it. If you can't see it, you can't target it. Pretty simple, pretty basic, that's the STANDARD EW that all Mechs have built in to them in play. You don't share targetting information with anyone but yourself, although you can spot for your lance by giving them the coords, make/model and other information manually by telling them over the comm. After a certain point in the timeline, the C3 system comes into play, and we're at a point where it's availible. The C3 system lets you share target information with your lance, but it comes at a cost of tonnage and space for EACH Mech.

Right now, we get a FREE C3 system for everyone, and ECM is actually working just like it should with that in mind. Or they could remove the C3 everyone gets for free and let you target any ECM target that's outside 180m, but you naturally can't share that target with anyone else.

Oh, and for those that just really can't figure it out, you can fire LRMs without having a lock, the missiles will go to the location your reticule is on when you fired them and will hit and damage the target if it's still there..you know, that indirect fire thing that LRMs are so wonderful about..or did none of you complaining that ECM makes LRMs useless even bother trying to fire them? I've gotten more then a few kills on ECM blocked Mechs who were dumb enough to stand still where I had LoS and LRMs

[Strum Wealh]

Kaijin, on 03 January 2013 - 10:45 PM, said:

As have I

But the issue I cited is an issue with the functionality of ECM, as it prevents locks (without TAG) in MWO, which has no basis in the TT rules. Further, this refusal on the part of the devs to acknowledge that missles go really fast really makes the argument that they haven't the slightest clue...which doesn't bode well for MWO's longevity.

Actually, it does have a basis in gameplay rules - specifically, the "Sensor Spotting" and "ECM/Stealth Systems" rules on pages 221-225 of Tactical Operations (which are, in turn, part of the "movement/spotting phase" of the "double-blind rules").

Tactical Operations also includes an "ECM/Stealth Modifier Table" on page 223, detailing all of the modifiers each EW and stealth system levies against efforts to use each sensor system (including individual sensor types) with regards to spotting (essentially the sensor equivalent of the weapons' to-hit roll).

TRO:3050R, cited in my previous post, was published in 1996.
Tactical Operations was published in 2008.

ECM's effects against sensors and detection have been part of BT fluff and gameplay rules for several years, and the Devs have evidently used these canon materials as the basis for MWO's ECM implementation.

[Solis Obscuri]

Strum Wealh, on 04 January 2013 - 12:19 AM, said:

Actually, it does have a basis in gameplay rules - specifically, the "Sensor Spotting" and "ECM/Stealth Systems" rules on pages 221-225 of Tactical Operations (which are, in turn, part of the "movement/spotting phase" of the "double-blind rules").

Tactical Operations also includes an "ECM/Stealth Modifier Table" on page 223, detailing all of the modifiers each EW and stealth system levies against efforts to use each sensor system (including individual sensor types) with regards to spotting (essentially the sensor equivalent of the weapons' to-hit roll).

TRO:3050R, cited in my previous post, was published in 1996.
Tactical Operations was published in 2008.

ECM's effects against sensors and detection have been part of BT fluff and gameplay rules for several years, and the Devs have evidently used these canon materials as the basis for MWO's ECM implementation.

Frankly... it seems grossly exaggerated in the MWO incarnation.

[Just Another Poster]

Ya, I agree, this thing isn't realistic enough nor similar enough to its TT version source material. They should make it so that missiles now bounce off you entirely if you're under the effect of an ECM. Also, Tag should do nothing.(BAP and NARC do nothing, so why not Tag too?) While we're at it, let's put it on every variant in the game. Also, make it a cloaking device so you're just invisible while using it. Make it hide you from the load list and scoresheet too. Better yet, make it 0t and 0s cost. Or make it a module with a 1GXP cost. As for that other stuff, such as NARC and BAP, let's just delete those from the game.

There we go. That'll make this forum crowd ever so happy! All praise the jesus box!

Edited by Just Another Poster, 04 January 2013 - 02:18 AM.

[StonedDead]

How about this, it worked fine for MW4.





Cause it sure don't work like that here. It's like ECM is an easy win part right now. Otherwise I wouldn't be fighting off flocks of Ravens and Commandos. There just needs to be a more effective counter than there is now. As it stands, 50%+ seem to use only four variants of mechs because they run ECM, and they all seem to be on the other side. Shouldn't something else be able to return even reduced functioning of the disrupted weapon systems? Or should everybody just run the 4 ECM capable mechs and tell PGI that they wasted their time making all those other shiny and pretty but now useless mechs cause only players who have almost no hope of winning use them? If nothing else, how about a reduction in strength or range at the very least to give everyone else a fighting chance?

All I'm trying to say is that I don't think ECM should be the end-all of mech components, where is the balance here?

Edited by Zekester81, 04 January 2013 - 04:33 AM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Outside of SOME units using ECM heavy grouping in 8 man drops or to pugstomp with 4man and 2x4 syncs, I really don't see all that much of it. As a matter of fact, most of my pug drops are without ECM on either side, with the ECM usually being restricted to 1 unit per side when it's there. It's when a premade of ECM builds hits that you see the imbalance effect, which is going to happen regardless of the ECM, that just makes it more visible, got to love the paradox there.

Keep a count of who you see using ECM, what Mech/config they are running, and their name and the names of the people who dropped with them for the next week. See what REAL data you can garner that way. Oh..and don't be surprised at the end of the week when you realize what you've discovered...and remember, no name/shame posting allowed.

[Dakkath]

Moving this bad-boy to suggestions area.

[MaddMaxx]

Here is a crazy Suggestion to try and alleviate the ECM/Streak issue on the Variants selected.

Take it away from the COM-2D (3M points) and give it to the COM-1B (1M point)
Take it away from the RVN-3L (2M points) and give it to either the RVN - 2X or RVN - 4X (1M point each)
None of the CDA variants have Missiles slots. (perhaps that is why we see less of them)
Take it away from the AS7-D-DC (3M points) and give it to the AS7 - K (1M point)

That way the combo of ECM and Streaks is reduced across the board and if anyone feels they can't deal with a 5 Pt weapon that spreads, well then there will be no solution available to ever satisfy them.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 04 January 2013 - 10:27 AM.