59 replies to this topic

[Pr8Dator]

Just a show of hands on this topic...

[Apoc1138]

from the guy that did a whole bunch of tests and showed that regardless of mechs and equipment, the team with 1 disco loses 95% of the time... I'd say teamwork, then PFT, then mech build

[Wraith05]

Teamwork. Most matches are lost because one side loses 1-2 mechs early on that don't do decent damage to the enemy (usually via rambo). From there it is hard to climb out of the hole those 1-2 pilots dug for you.

Edited by Wraith05, 03 January 2013 - 08:08 AM.

[Lusankya]

Teamwork. Focusing fire does wonders.

[IIIuminaughty]

Lusankya, on 03 January 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

Teamwork. Focusing fire does wonders.

If you have me and lus on the same team as you just expect a W. Nuff said

[Bguk]

I can't vote. There is no option for 8 mans.

/sarcasm (So people get it)

[Throat Punch]

The issue isn't pugs vs premades in matches, its skilled vs unskilled. The skilled people use teamwork and tactics and the unskilled don't

[Bguk]

M A L I C E, on 03 January 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

Falls under teamwork.

4mans are just as devastating.

A 2/3/4/8 man drop does not equate to teamwork in all cases

I was just basically opening the floodgates of other poll options based on boogeyman OP posts.

[hammerreborn]

M A L I C E, on 03 January 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

I voted teamwork, but I disagree that being down one man is 95% chance of loss, in fact I'm calling complete and utter BS on this made up statistic.

I'd say it's probably closer to 65% at the top, relative skill being the biggest factor.

If you'd like to prove me wrong show your work. I did. A 4 man premade is pretty much required to overcome being a man down in a pug vs pug match.

Hell, you could even make it easy on yourself to do it rather than making it a secondary statistic to track. If you're so good just two man drop with someone, and have him DC every single match, see how many you win.

Skill means very little in the overall outcome of the match unless you get into the pure PUG setting.

DC > coordination/premade > ECM > PUG skill.

Any team with coordination will pick apart the team without. A whole team goes 3 line in River City, the other spreads out, few in river, few lower city, few upper city. The coordinated team will win nearly every time (~60-70% for premades).

Sure one man can carry a team, but he'll do it far less and be less likely to overcome all of the other obstacles with all things considered.

Edited by hammerreborn, 03 January 2013 - 08:41 AM.

[WolvesX]

ECM

[Flyby215]

Participation.

"This is for all you new people: I only have one rule. Everyone fights. No one quits. You don't do your job, I'll shoot you myself. You get me?" -Jean Rasczak, Starship Troopers.

Communication, sticking together, planning, it's all encompassed under the very broad term of "teamwork". To me, 'participation' is the most valuable asset to a fight. If everyone fights we always have a chance.

[hammerreborn]

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1672291

20 trials, 10 games with DC, 2 wins, both on team with premades (as admitted by the players involved).

https://docs.google....0xcVA0dkE#gid=0 user MuonNeutrinos trials, 2 games with DC, 1 win

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1687773
Another 2 games with DCs (the latter 2 with only 6 mechs recorded, the first was someone that got killed really quick before I could figure out which was the 7th), both losses. I didn't indicate when the other team had a DC in my records but there was one that resulted in a loss (they started with 7).

So out of 14 or 15 games, 3 wins. 80% win rate for the team without the DC. Without confirmed premades, only 1 win amoung 13 games, or a ~93% win rate for the team without the DC against a pure PUG.


Could I have more trials done, yes, but I'm not about to purposefully throw matches that could potentially get someone banned for repeatedly dropping to prove the point.

Edited by hammerreborn, 03 January 2013 - 09:05 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Next time you win or lose a non Cap Rush. Compare the assists the winners have v the losers. Then compare the assists the top scoring players have v the bottom 4.

[Wispsy]

I can walk all over teams of 8 people on my own if they all have weak personal fighting styles/skills no matter their teamwork.....

[Shlkt]

Re: teamwork vs. raw damage output (i.e. mech build)

Consider a simplified game where each mech has 10 hp, and each attack does 1.0 to 2.0 damage. If Team A coordinates attacks while Team B fires randomly then Team A will win 99.99% of games.

In order for Team B to overcome their teamwork defficiency and achieve a 50% win rate, they must be given a 44% damage bonus; i.e. they have to do almost 1.5x as much damage per shot just to have a fighting chance. These numbers were determined via monte carlo simulation with 10,000 trials.

If Team A has a single disconnect but continues to coordinate firepower vs Team B's random shots, Team A will still win 93% of games.

Realistically, of course, you won't be able to focus fire 100% of the time... but the point of the above is that teamwork is extremely, extremely important. In the case that Team A only coordinates fire half the time, they still win 97% of games and Team B would need a 17% damage bonus to even their chances.

[Tennex]

mech builds determine personal tactics as well as team tactics.

Scout, LRM boat hangs back, brawlers up front etc. Those are all builds.

Catapult, trencher, spears, long sword, heavy infantry with shield in front, light infantry in center to flank, archers in the back, cavalry to chase/disrupt infantry.

Weaponization dictates tactics, just as much in medieval times as it does in MWO



Simple example, one team has 5 LRM boats, 2 scouts and 1 atlas brawler, other team has 3ECM Raven 5 ECM atlas.
doesn't matter how much team work there is. pretty clear which team is going to win just because of the builds utilized. don't bring a knife to a gunfight so to speak

Edited by Tennex, 03 January 2013 - 09:29 AM.

[Khobai]

Teamwork. We used to troll in trial mechs and beat other premade teams. Mech design really has very little to do with the outcome of the game.

[SJ SCP Wolf]

Teamwork trumps everything. Target calls, assists, and focus fire win the day every day. Our guys take whatever mech and configs they want, and we win. Why? because we work together. When we don't we lose.

[Khobai]

Quote

Little to do with aggregate W/L, but a whole hell of a lot to do with K/D, which can certainly influence W/L if the discrpancy is large enough.

K/D means nothing though, its just whoever got the last hit in.

A more meaningful statistic would be damage done vs damage received.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Mechbuild. Anyone who doesn't agree hasn't seen the video of 8 MG mechs attempting to take down and Awesome. They had great teamwork and focus fire, but lacked the tools to win.