100 replies to this topic

[pseudocoder]

Lord Jay, on 03 January 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

Not all mechs should be able to equip ECM, but perhaps all mechs should be able to equip ECCM.

I believe ECM and ECCM were separate pieces of equipment in TT anyway..

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/ECCM

Nope, any ECM can use ECCM mode in TT. This is identical to the MWO implementation with disrupt/counter modes.

[Screech]

At this point might as well using it as balancing device for certain mechs was always a bad idea.

For those saying no and to keep it to canon only mechs, do you mean that it should be removed from the Cicada and Commando?

[Davers]

I forgot to add to my post that when everyone stopped carrying AMS, LRM boats did come back, but not to the extent they were before. Which led us to pre-Artemis, which was one of the most balanced LRM periods in the game.

[StalaggtIKE]

Shismar, on 03 January 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

No, I would not want ECM on all mechs.

As it is, most PUG matches only have a few of them and it works very well to add strategic aspects to combat. Not to mention limit the use of LRMs and Streaks that really went over board previously. They are still there and can be very powerful if not countered.

Why not, if it add strategy to gameplay? Why should I not be allowed to take part in strategic combat if I want to pilot a Hunchback?

Dixie Cup, on 03 January 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

ECM for everyone isn't a magic pill that will automatically make the game more balanced and easier. When I'm using my D-DC, I have a hell of a time operating like I normally would when I'm being hit with TAG, or if there's an ECM equipped skinny mech running circles around me that is countering mine. People adjusting their tactics to make up for the lock-on difficulty of ECM has made ECM less and less effective over time in my opinion, and will continue to be less of a factor as players adjust.

Wouldn't this adjustment take place faster if everyone had access to ECM? You'll get less whining and be able to enjoy the game.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 03 January 2013 - 01:28 PM.

[StUffz]

pseudocoder, on 03 January 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

Interesting idea, but I am personally against auto-composing drops for PUG play. I think if you start matchmaking based on loadout (class/tonnage is another issue), then you will be getting less diverse match play which to me will be less interesting.

It's not about class and tonnage but only about who can fit an ECM or not. Since I posted 2 light/med/heavy/assault you should not get into trouble. And even now you already have your preferred mech.

And to make it more interesting, maybe allow Liao to add an additional light/medium ECM equippable mech. But this would favor pvpers to choose Liao faction.

[Khobai]

No, not all mechs should be able to use ECM. However ECM needs to be balanced better. Right now theres absolutely no reason to ever use a variant of a mech that doesn't have ECM. Like why would you ever use a Raven 2X?

[Kraven Kor]

StalaggtIKE, on 03 January 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

Yes.

If ECM stays in its current form, all mechs should be allowed to equip it.

I don't want ECM on every mech, but I don't want there to only be X viable mechs that you "must have" on your team or else. (It isn't really like that now but there is some truth to it.)

So if ECM is a "must have" then let us load it on every mech.

Otherwise, do something to make it less mandatory - to where it really is a schtick unique to those variants, not "bring 2x Raven 3L or lose." (Again, hyperbole, but some truth there.)

[Lord Jay]

pseudocoder, on 03 January 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

Nope, any ECM can use ECCM mode in TT. This is identical to the MWO implementation with disrupt/counter modes.

Fair enough.

But a separate piece of equipment that is able to counter ECM might be viable. There would be weight and slot considerations so it is not clear that everyone would automatically equip it.

If not made available for all mechs then perhaps only on a limited number of the lesser played chassis. (The Awesome comes to mind.)

In the end I'm sure PGI is not done with ECM and there will be changes coming. Until then all we can do is speculate.

[Davers]

Why do people want to add more equipment rather than make existing EW equipment worthwhile? BAP and NARC should be more fully integrated into EW to provide more options.

Oh yeah, people just want an 'ECM Off' button.

[CheebaMech]

I'm in favor of it being available to all 'mechs until it's balanced properly.

[Marcus Tanner]

pseudocoder, on 03 January 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

Could you clarify which mechs would be able to equip Guardian based on canon? I wasn't able to find that information. Is it just the 4 that currently have it?

No, just the Raven 3L among the mechs in the game so far. The other do not have ECM in canon.

The "stock" mechs are canon variants, so if you want to know whether a mech has it by canon, then just look at the equipment it comes with.

Boss Awesome, on 03 January 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

Alright, here is my stab at being helpful instead of snarky.

That's okay, I thought your snark was funny in this case. Thanks for your input regardless.

CYBRN4CR, on 03 January 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

Then get ready to have Streakapults, Gaussapults, Stalkers etc with ECM.

Yes. Incidentally, those other problems could also use some fixing.

pseudocoder, on 03 January 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

You had me till that last part, but please keep on topic of WHICH MECHS should be able to equip, not other ECM fixes (like making it built in)

I think that it was entirely appropriate. If everyone can mount it then they almost certainly will.

If everyone should be taking a piece of equipment, then make it the standard, factor it out and then move on. That way the trail mechs won't be left in the dust.

Shismar, on 03 January 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

As it is, most PUG matches only have a few of them and it works very well to add strategic aspects to combat. Not to mention limit the use of LRMs and Streaks that really went over board previously. They are still there and can be very powerful if not countered.

That's the real reason why they're limiting it by chassis, I suspect.

It's inappropriately powerful, so one way they have of making sure that it doesn't flood the game is by limiting it to certain chassis. This limits the number of ECM mechs in a match without limiting the power.

I still think the game would be healthier if every mech had ECM, because then it would be rarer for one side to have a serious ECM advantage (trial mechs and disconnects and such can still cause an ECM disparity). That would make things less lame for teams that would otherwise have no ECM on their side.

Edited by Marcus Tanner, 03 January 2013 - 01:45 PM.

[ArmyOfWon]

Yes.

Not saying that it should be just as it is right now, but properly balanced there shouldn't be a reason to limit it to (before ECM) mostly seldom-used chassis.

[Kraven Kor]

ArmyOfWon, on 03 January 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

Yes.

Not saying that it should be just as it is right now, but properly balanced there shouldn't be a reason to limit it to (before ECM) mostly seldom-used chassis.

Give the current, "known ECM" variants a bonus to ECM. Then let ECM go on everything. First, or after, balance ECM accordingly.

[pseudocoder]

Lord Jay, on 03 January 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

But a separate piece of equipment that is able to counter ECM might be viable. There would be weight and slot considerations so it is not clear that everyone would automatically equip it.

If not made available for all mechs then perhaps only on a limited number of the lesser played chassis. (The Awesome comes to mind.)

In the end I'm sure PGI is not done with ECM and there will be changes coming. Until then all we can do is speculate.

Interesting suggestion. But how is this better than just allowing full ECM/ECCM on every variant? Do you want to preserve how special the 4 ECM variants are, for some reason?

[Bobby Bolivia]

StalaggtIKE, on 03 January 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

Why not, if it add strategy to gameplay? Why should I not be allowed to take part in strategic combat if I want to pilot a Hunchback?


Wouldn't this adjustment take place faster if everyone had access to ECM? You'll get less whining and be able to enjoy the game.

Good point! However, what would be the point of LRM's and Streaks if a lock would require an ECM countermeasure every single time because everyone has access to ECM?

[pseudocoder]

Marcus Tanner, on 03 January 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

If everyone should be taking a piece of equipment, then make it the standard, factor it out and then move on. That way the trail mechs won't be left in the dust.
...
It's inappropriately powerful, so one way they have of making sure that it doesn't flood the game is by limiting it to certain chassis. This limits the number of ECM mechs in a match without limiting the power.

If the equipment is ubiquitous then it is a gameplay mechanic, not a strategy choice. We want ECM to be a strategy choice because it encourages counter-play, which makes the game more interesting.

Again, limiting OP equipment to certain chassis limits strategy choice which actually hurts the game rather than help. That is of course if you subscribe to the idea that ECM is OP.

Kraven Kor, on 03 January 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

Give the current, "known ECM" variants a bonus to ECM. Then let ECM go on everything. First, or after, balance ECM accordingly.

If there is a need for enhanced ECM capability to balance (otherwise underpowered) variants, I would support that idea. But giving them an exclusive capability is probably unbalancing no matter what that ability is (unless it is trivial, in which case it doesn't serve its purpose of affecting balance).

Dixie Cup, on 03 January 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

Good point! However, what would be the point of LRM's and Streaks if a lock would require an ECM countermeasure every single time because everyone has access to ECM?

That situation assumes 1) that everyone HAS ECM just because they can equip it (not likely), and 2) that ECM makes LRM/SSRM completely useless without counter-ECM, which could be argued, but belongs in a different thread

Edited by pseudocoder, 03 January 2013 - 02:26 PM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Dixie Cup, on 03 January 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

Good point! However, what would be the point of LRM's and Streaks if a lock would require an ECM countermeasure every single time because everyone has access to ECM?

Never mind, what pseudocoder said...

Quote

That situation assumes 1) that everyone HAS ECM just because they can equip it (not likely), and 2) that ECM makes LRM/SSRM completely useless without counter-ECM, which could be argued, but belongs in a different thread

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 03 January 2013 - 02:42 PM.

[Garrath]

The naysayers here really are a joke.

'It should only be on canon mechs'. Wake up, this so called ECM has nothing at all to do with canon in the first place. It doesn't exist in the battletech universe in any form even close to how it's implemented here. It makes no sense to restrict it to certain mechs based on that fact alone.

If it WAS made available on every mech chassis, at least you might see more than 2 mech variants in 8 man. Honestly the thought of community warfare etc right now is just a joke, what's the point to bigger battles if it will all be the same mechs in play anyways.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

EMC for MC only mechs, since the ECM proponents suggest that it is in fact NOT overpowered, therefore not pay to win.

I jest, ECM is currently unfit for any mech, allowing everyone to mount it does not solve the ECM problem, it solves the symptom of 50% of players using 7.8% of available mech variants.

[Talys]

Absolutely not.