79 replies to this topic

[Ghostrider0067]

What does ELO have to do with anything?



And then I thought... hell, half of the people in here probably don't have a clue as to who ELO is.


OT: PGI needs to create lobbies to resolve the situation. Is there a quick or easy fix? No, but I'm confident that something can be done to better the situation and smooth things over.

Edited by Ghostrider0067, 05 January 2013 - 01:31 PM.

[Wraith05]

Hotthedd, on 05 January 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

So the minnows will not be playing against the sharks. Seems very much like having a cadet-only queue.

Yes, but the catch is if there are not enough sharks on they will let some sword fish into the shark tanks . So instead of it being a hardlined this group only plays with this group. It has some flexibility to ensure good close matches and also ensures the best and worst players can still find matches.

Supposedly anyway.

[One Medic Army]

Wraith05, on 05 January 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

Yes, but the catch is if there are not enough sharks on they will let some sword fish into the shark tanks . So instead of it being a hardlined this group only plays with this group. It has some flexibility to ensure good close matches and also ensures the best and worst players can still find matches.

Supposedly anyway.

Not to mention since each team has 8 players, it could put a couple cadets on each team. Best way to learn the game is to watch a better player.

[The Exiled]

in some games i have been one of the sheep, some a wolf and on occaion i have been king. On all the forums of all those games you see the exact same stuff.

Very few players actually give a crap about good game balance. I recall being in the vent of a very good fleet, one of the players really wanted more and better rewards for pvp, rewards that gave pvp bonuses. I called them out on that, if you are good at pvp why would you need even more of an edge over those that rarely pvp and who you already beat in your premade.

To me, even tho i had long since stopped playing that particular game told me that the 'best' were anything but, they were just wannabies that has remained long enough that the best players had left and the barrel have finally dried up enough that they became the top.

That attitude is already here, there are people that will try to convince everyone that everything is fine and we should all be patient, of course they want that, they know the current state benefits them and they are deperate to keep it that way as they are petty wannabies that like to believe they are actually good at something, an attitude made worse becasue they can fool themselves and others through padding their kdr and win ratio..

There are good players in this game, even great players, and they will be more interested in improving the game balance and fixes over trying to maintain the status quo and exploiting game mechanics. The wannabies would rather the game fail before they give up any advantage they can gain over pugs because they know without those imbalances to gain an edge they are just poor players

Edited by The Exiled, 05 January 2013 - 01:48 PM.

[Hotthedd]

One Medic Army, on 05 January 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

Not to mention since each team has 8 players, it could put a couple cadets on each team. Best way to learn the game is to watch a better player.

Is there a way to FORCE them to watch, lol?
I just do not want it to scare off new players.

[Denno]

The Ops premise that everyone but the poor lone pugger hovers and gloats over k/dr and lives and breathes to farm n00b pugs is moronic and offensive. I could care less about it, and I and 90% of my friends single pug all the time. I'll also note that it's a very rare day pugging when I see a string of losses in a row. I think people are overdramatizing crap.

[Serapth]

Denno, on 05 January 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:

The Ops premise that everyone but the poor lone pugger hovers and gloats over k/dr and lives and breathes to farm n00b pugs is moronic and offensive. I could care less about it, and I and 90% of my friends single pug all the time. I'll also note that it's a very rare day pugging when I see a string of losses in a row. I think people are overdramatizing crap.

It would be better if I actually said that.

What I did suggest ( and hold firm with ), that people opposed to better balancing the game by putting a premade on each team belong to the group you describe. Some people love the lop sided situation that is created under the current game. These are your stat whores.

[Suicidal Idiot]

Denno, on 05 January 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:

...and I and 90% of my friends single pug all the time. I'll also note that it's a very rare day pugging when I see a string of losses in a row. I think people are overdramatizing crap.

I'm a member of a unit, and I pug probably over half the time. Mostly because I'm in a crappy mech, grinding XP to get master in a different chassis, and I don't want to be with my teammates utterly sucking. I don't feel bad with a bunch of other guys, because statistically there's a slightly better than 50% chance they'll be shooting at me. (# of players online+1)/2 to be exact.

So my crappy chassis builds are more than fair to the competition. With friends, I usually run an atlas DDC or an Ilya.

[Dark Severance]

Serapth, on 03 January 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

The ideal solution would be to have a PuG only queue, with no premades allowed.

The problem is this doesn't work.

Way back in closed beta, before there was group drops, there was sync drops. You have 8 people in Vent/TS go 3, 2, 1, Drop. This 98% of the time will put those 8 people in the same drop group. They may not of always ended up on the same team however. This was offset by now having 16 people in Vent/TS doing it. This was how we did early testing in controlled environments. Then we added group drops.

The reason why 8vs8 group drops wasn't a fix was because you still had people who would sync drop with 2 4-man groups instead.

The only fix will be them finalizing and finishing match-making based on mechs, skill, etc. Anything else will not be a fix and temporary band-aid that people will just work around. Not to mention grouping and drops will change even more with Community Warfare. No you can't use BV because that is based on table-top rules, there needs to be a whole new value system created based on the online side of things. It can be done but still takes work.

The real question is would you rather just deal with it, as it is a minor annoyance currently (the bigger annoyance is AFK/DC's). Or do you want to waste development time implementing a band-aid that lasts for a few months, pushing back main projects (like community warfare matchmaking) back further in the timeline. If anything finalizing in-game voice integration would be more preferable than any band-aid matchmaking fix.

[Serapth]

Dark Severance, on 05 January 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

The problem is this doesn't work.

Way back in closed beta, before there was group drops, there was sync drops. You have 8 people in Vent/TS go 3, 2, 1, Drop. This 98% of the time will put those 8 people in the same drop group. They may not of always ended up on the same team however. This was offset by now having 16 people in Vent/TS doing it. This was how we did early testing in controlled environments. Then we added group drops.

The reason why 8vs8 group drops wasn't a fix was because you still had people who would sync drop with 2 4-man groups instead.

The only fix will be them finalizing and finishing match-making based on mechs, skill, etc. Anything else will not be a fix and temporary band-aid that people will just work around. Not to mention grouping and drops will change even more with Community Warfare. No you can't use BV because that is based on table-top rules, there needs to be a whole new value system created based on the online side of things. It can be done but still takes work.

The real question is would you rather just deal with it, as it is a minor annoyance currently (the bigger annoyance is AFK/DC's). Or do you want to waste development time implementing a band-aid that lasts for a few months, pushing back main projects (like community warfare matchmaking) back further in the timeline. If anything finalizing in-game voice integration would be more preferable than any band-aid matchmaking fix.

I said straight out in the OP that a pug only queue didn't work. I am simply calling for a premade being put on each team.

As to what the biggest annoyance is, that all depends on who you ask. I find the premade unbalance/lousy matchmaker MUCH more annoying than the disconnects, as the disconnects are at least balanced... they happen equally to everybody.

I have to think a mechanic that is causing new players to quit early is a higher priority to the longevity of the game over almost any other problem at the moment. Or at least, it should be if PGI has any business sense.

Ideally though, I want all of these things fixed, you can work in parallel after all.

[Lykaon]

Serapth, on 03 January 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

I think the vast majority of people will agree that a premade group is a massive advantage, damned near an "I win" button. Now I know people like padding their K/D ratios and dont want things fixed, but this certainly isn't good for the life of the game over all. Newbies are going to rage quit fast in the face of repeated premade pummelings, while those of us that PUG because of lifestyle requirements (... like having kids), well let's just say running into 4x ECM raven premades over and over loses its charm quickly.


The most infuriating problem is, this could be fixed tomorrow with an obscenely small amount of work.

The ideal solution would be to have a PuG only queue, with no premades allowed. The obvious downside to this situation is the premade queues would take longer to start. It would get especially tricky when you have 3man premades for example... trying to find that 1man that wants to be in the premade queue would take a long time. So in the end, this doesn't really work for everyone ( but would make like massively nicer for PuGers ).


The compromise solution... put one premade on each side. DONE. Problem solved, major annoyances solved, people whining that it's all premades stomping them will go away because it would be balanced. It's not a perfect fix, but it's easy, its balanced and it wouldn't negatively impact the game in any way.


Finally, to make the newbie experience a little gentler, favour match making people getting the newbie bonus against each other. As they start gaining experience against other newbies, start putting them in the regular queue more often. This would also lesson the suicide charges later on, or hopefully it would.



What I dont see here is a downside to the compromise solution. Unless they are horrific coders, which I doubt they are, it shouldn't exactly be difficult putting a premade on each team. I think the majority of people would wait a few seconds longer for a match for a more balanced and enjoyable match. The only real downside I can see to this solution is the pugstompers might see their K/D ratios go down... something I couldn't give a damn about.


I know there is grand talk about improved match making down the road, that said, they could fix things so simply now, that they should slap on a bandaid fix... as I bet they are bleeding new users from the current experience. Then again, given the recent implementation of ECM... and worse, the complete lack of feedback on the subject, I have almost no expectations...

How is it possible that when I Pug I am playing a completly different game from the game the complainers play?

I don't lose match after match to premade synchro drops of 8.
I don't see these 4 ECM raven premades match after match.
I don't even see 4 man premades in every drop.

What I do see is if a team has ECM and uses it correctly the other team runs around like morons an die.Players need to use their eyes in addition to the HUD target brackets.If ECM disables your targeting just scan for mechs with your eyes.I see players pass over visable targets constantly because the HUD didn't highlight it as an enemy.

I see horrible marksmanship.This can be from poor ping or under performing hardware but not always.Sometimes it's just bad aim.

I see absurd amounts of friendly fire,blocked lanes of fire and counter productive manuvering.This is only caused by inexperience.

I constantly see pilots trying to perform outside thier mech's role.Stalkers chasing light mechs,light mechs fighting assault mechs when thier base is under attack and forcing thier slower team mates to fall back to defend.

I always see players wasting time and resources on killing disconnected targets over attacking live and hostile targets.Tip if the match start lists them as disconnected they are worth nothing.

There is absolutely NO concievable reason to discharge weapons at the drop zone.Yet players constantly do so and risk friendly fire and placing their team at a handycap by begining the match with damaged mechs.Why is it that when I play in 8 mans I never hear weapons discharge in the dropzone but in pugs I almost always do?..Inexperience is the answer.

Many of the issues pug players face can be corrected with a suitable in game tutorial on how to pilot a mech and what combat is actually like.Just a series of PvE challenges like run around the cones,shoot the targets don't overheat etc.


I solo PUG, I 4 man and I 8 man. I have a broader perspective than many of the posters I debate with.The problem isn't the problem that is complained about.It is the perception of what the problem is that isn't.

Plain and simple the problem is sharks playing in the pool with minnows.These sharks may be premades or just solo pugs but a shark gobbles up minnows and the minnows hate it.

Even if premades were taken out of the pool Puggie sharks will dominate!

Maybe ELO match making with allow minnows to play in thier own pool until they become sharks themselves.


I believe even after ELO match making we should have a matchmaker that places 4 man premades on boths as a priority.

Maybe even someday with 12 v 12 we can have a cap of 1 premade per side in place.


The one consistant issue I see with all of the anti premade postings is a totally one sided view posted by a player who has never even played as a premade team member or even seen an 8 v8 match attempting to dictate terms on how those players should play.

I have played solo as a four man team member and in eight VS eight.believe me or don't.

[Boris The Spider]

Lykaon, agree completley.

Serapth, on 05 January 2013 - 02:39 PM, said:

It would be better if I actually said that.
What I did suggest ( and hold firm with ), that people opposed to better balancing the game by putting a premade on each team belong to the group you describe. Some people love the lop sided situation that is created under the current game. These are your stat whores.

I think it would be a good start if the matchmaker could at least attempt that and I too am suspicious of the motives of those who reject the idea of queue balancing without giving good reason for their objection. But I think it could also be said that those some of those veteran lone wolves who are lobbying for a solo only queue are doing so because they know they are good players. They know the only thing holding them back from dominating the battlefield every game is the existence of 4 man groups. I think a lot of the "4 man's want their easy mode" assertions are just projection for lone wolves who want their own easy mode and to ***** their own stats but will not admit it.

But on a whole, the idea that most VOIP players on this forum want their easy mode is absurd because our first response is always "Join us!" The majority of what are being called 'premades' are just random pick up groups who form up on teamspeak who have no interest in joining clans or playing organised games, they just expect a game in 2013 to have VOIP, some are total noobs like I was. I joined COMSTAR Teamspeak on my second day playing MWO, I wasn't elite, I didn't have a good mech, I just wanted to be able to talk to my team. As I said on the previous thread earlier today, we are not farming pugs, our farmhouse door is open and there is a place set for you at the table.

Serapth, on 03 January 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

My personal reasons are Im the father of a young child. When I play I may potentially have to drop everything.

Serapth, have you considered that we don’t care. MW:O matches are like 15 minutes tops, just say "guys, got to dash" and hit ALT+F4. We get this all the time on Comstar, lots of family guys play there. It's a bit crap on the 8 man groups as a man down on one of those matches is a real blow with the game setup times and waits and all, 4 man, not so much.

A lot of people don't even care if your mic'd up, just that you can hear and type and have the teamwork mindset, there are lots of mic-less players on Comstar. You could use your audio properties in Win7 to route the Teamspeak program through an external headphone that you could pop in one ear so as not to disturb your family but still be able to hear. Hells I even suggested a few times that Comstar should make some perma-muted dropships for those who want the text chat lobby and group advantages of the 4 mans but don’t want to hear people squawking down com's at them... roundly ignored every time I bring it up, never a reason given.

Edited by Boris The Spider, 05 January 2013 - 03:49 PM.

[Serapth]

I said nothing about 8man drops.

I have said, and continue to say, the premade group gets a massive advantage and influences the outcome of the match more than any other single factor. I propose simply adding a premade to each side, nothing more.

I never once claimed that PuG groups arent full of idiots, newbs, team killers and worse. It's the largest demographic (according to PGI) and is where the newbies and anonymous play, so obviously it is going to have all of these things. That has absolutely nothing to do with what I am talking about.

There are those of us that know how to play, but due to a variety of (equally valid) reasons, prefer or have to PuG. People in this group simply want to see a more balanced game. Therefore if you have one premade in a group, pair it against another and everyone wins. This has nothing to do with pug idiocy, L2P BS, 8 man drops or anything else. It's a simple fix that would make the game much more balanced. The only people that would lose in this scenario is the people that dont want their game to get more fair.

I will say the 4man ECM Raven teams have become much more scarce since they removed any advantage to capping. Before that change, I would see at least 4 or 5 4-man raven teams a night. And they would often brag about doing it, so you knew it was a premade. Perhaps you don't see it because you play in different time zones. I will say for certain, at different times the prevalence of pre-mades in the game goes up or down.

[Serapth]

Boris The Spider, on 05 January 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

I think a lot of the "4 man's want their easy mode" assertions are just projection for lone wolves who want their own easy mode and to ***** their own stats but will not admit it.

... and this, is exactly what ELO will solve. We know its on the roadmap, so this is a non-issue, or at least should be.

Quote

Serapth, have you considered that we don’t care. MW:O matches are like 15 minutes tops, just say "guys, got to dash" and hit ALT+F4. We get this all the time on Comstar, lots of family guys play there. It's a bit crap on the 8 man groups as a man down on one of those matches is a real blow, 4 man, not so much.

A lot of people don't even care if your mic'd up, just that you can hear and type and have the teamwork mindset, there are lots of mic-less players on Comstar. You could use your audio properties in Win7 to route the Teamspeak program through an external headphone that you could pop in one ear so as not to disturb your family but still be able to hear. Hells I even suggested a few times that Comstar should make some perma-muted dropships for those who want the text chat lobby and group advantages of the 4 mans but don’t want to hear people squawking down com's at them... roundly ignored every time I bring it up, never a reason given.

Fair enough, but it goes a bit beyond that. You may not care, and thats very cool of you, but what if my kid is screaming in the background? What if on occasion it is in the middle of a match? Trust me... we drop everything parents get damned annoying in a hurry. I actually play this game a ton, but I play it 15-30 minutes on, 15 off, etc...

You know what though, I would use a perma muted channel in a heartbeat, if such a thing existed. Better yet, if the game simply let you chat out of match and form groups that way, I would be downright delighted. Sadly though, for reasons I cant even fathom, it doesnt.


Also don't get me wrong, sometimes I am get dedicated gamer time and do get to experience the "full" game, playing with friends online with a mic. I do appreciate a more tactical team game, where tactics rule the day. The problem is, you dont really get this either... you generally just get matched against a squad of individuals, from lone wolves to idiots and teamkillers, and roll all over them. I dont particularly find this fun either.

Both sides of me, the PuGer and premade player, want a more balanced game because... well, its more fun. ELO will bring that on an individual level, or hopefully will. On the premade level, not so much.

Edited by Serapth, 05 January 2013 - 03:58 PM.

[Boris The Spider]

.... and as simple as that, we find common ground and full agreement, now if the whole community could do this we would be onto a winner

4 man on each side if possible and some perma-mute dropships on the comstar server, one idea for PGI to work on, one for the community to work on. Great work, take the rest of the night off guys.

Edited by Boris The Spider, 05 January 2013 - 04:02 PM.

[Wraith05]

Serapth, on 05 January 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

... and this, is exactly what ELO will solve. We know its on the roadmap, so this is a non-issue, or at least should be.




Fair enough, but it goes a bit beyond that. You may not care, and thats very cool of you, but what if my kid is screaming in the background? What if on occasion it is in the middle of a match? Trust me... we drop everything parents get damned annoying in a hurry. I actually play this game a ton, but I play it 15-30 minutes on, 15 off, etc...

You know what though, I would use a perma muted channel in a heartbeat, if such a thing existed. Better yet, if the game simply let you chat out of match and form groups that way, I would be downright delighted. Sadly though, for reasons I cant even fathom, it doesnt.


Also don't get me wrong, sometimes I am get dedicated gamer time and do get to experience the "full" game, playing with friends online with a mic. I do appreciate a more tactical team game, where tactics rule the day. The problem is, you dont really get this either... you generally just get matched against a squad of individuals, from lone wolves to idiots and teamkillers, and roll all over them. I dont particularly find this fun either.

Both sides of me, the PuGer and premade player, want a more balanced game because... well, its more fun. ELO will bring that on an individual level, or hopefully will. On the premade level, not so much.

(not being sarcastic) The game does let you chat out of match and form groups. The feature is just kinda hidden and annoying and you have to make friends+write down their names during match or find people on the forums.

you'd have to add friends from the pug games or forums like I said.
Then use your friendslist and double click their name, will bring up a chat box.
Send a message (hopefully it has some way to notify them you sent one).
Then add start a group/add them/have them start one.

Once in the group you can double click on a group members name to open the groups chat which can let you discuss pre drop builds and stuff.

I know you said you play 15-30 minutes at a time so it may take too much time for you to get everything set up. But if you can make some friends and organize some playtime with them it may enhance your MWO experience a little bit.

I also know an in game lobby/lfg system would add a TON to this game, but just wanted to point the current tools out for now. Good luck and have fun mate!

[Serapth]

Boris The Spider, on 05 January 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

.... and as simple as that, we find common ground and full agreement, now if the whole community could do this we would be onto a winner

4 man on each side if possible and some perma-mute dropships on the comstar server, one idea for PGI to work on, one for the community to work on. Great work, take the rest of the night off guys.

Boris The Spider, on 05 January 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

.... and as simple as that, we find common ground and full agreement, now if the whole community could do this we would be onto a winner

4 man on each side if possible and some perma-mute dropships on the comstar server, one idea for PGI to work on, one for the community to work on. Great work, take the rest of the night off guys.

Agreed 100%. Minimal effort, maximum return, nobody suffers. Now if only we could get PGI to do it.

Wraith05, on 05 January 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

(not being sarcastic) The game does let you chat out of match and form groups. The feature is just kinda hidden and annoying and you have to make friends+write down their names during match or find people on the forums.

you'd have to add friends from the pug games or forums like I said.
Then use your friendslist and double click their name, will bring up a chat box.
Send a message (hopefully it has some way to notify them you sent one).
Then add start a group/add them/have them start one.

Once in the group you can double click on a group members name to open the groups chat which can let you discuss pre drop builds and stuff.

I know you said you play 15-30 minutes at a time so it may take too much time for you to get everything set up. But if you can make some friends and organize some playtime with them it may enhance your MWO experience a little bit.

I also know an in game lobby/lfg system would add a TON to this game, but just wanted to point the current tools out for now. Good luck and have fun mate!

Thanks for the heads up.


By the way, that is horrid!

[Wraith05]

Serapth, on 05 January 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

Agreed 100%. Minimal effort, maximum return, nobody suffers. Now if only we could get PGI to do it.




Thanks for the heads up.


By the way, that is horrid!

Oh it's a terrible way to do it and annoying beyond belief since you can't chat when the match ends so adding friends can actually be hard.

Plus it is likely easy to miss the "you've got mail" signal if there even is one.

Edited by Wraith05, 05 January 2013 - 04:14 PM.

[kilgor]

It should probably be a combination of ELO and Battle Value as all a person has to do is just play badly so their ELO queues them up with less skilled people.

[Wraith05]

kilgor, on 05 January 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

It should probably be a combination of ELO and Battle Value as all a person has to do is just play badly so their ELO queues them up with less skilled people.

In games I have played in the past that is harder to do than you'd think. You would be losing more games than winning since winning usually gave your score more points than losing a match. Will depend on how they implement it and rate it.