219 replies to this topic

[PiemasterXL]

[krash27]

So if they don't base it off of TT how could it be called Mechwarrior: Online?

[Pht]

Kraven Kor, on 04 January 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

I fell over plenty in TT from "not doing anything stupid" - any elevation change caused a piloting roll, running on pavement? Piloting roll (and skidding! Fun!) For how "maneuverable" mechs were, and how they were touted as being "better in rough terrain than conventional vehicles" - they sure fell over a lot in my experience.

Um ... you didn't figure out that ... if it required a piloting skill roll, you avoided doing it, because it was ... stupid to do unless you had to?

Quote

It wasn't that the roll was ever hard for most basic maneuvers; it was that sometimes, you rolled boxcars. When you rolled boxcars, IIRC, you fell. Period. Could be mis-remembering but I do recall some seriously frustrating moments in TT dealing with some piloting roll stuff

Yes, snake eyes is evil... ... just like rolling a 12 is amazing.

krash27, on 04 January 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

So if they don't base it off of TT how could it be called Mechwarrior: Online?

In a world where people think that it's true that there's no truth and where people think language, at best, is just a game where you can stuff any meaning you want into the words you use ...

I doubt many people care.

Edited by Pht, 04 January 2013 - 05:19 PM.

[Kraven Kor]

Pht, on 04 January 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:

Um ... you didn't figure out that ... if it required a piloting skill roll, you avoided doing it, because it was ... stupid to do unless you had to?

Walking up a hill? Pilot roll.

Entering a wooded hex? Pilot roll.

Entering water? Pilot roll.

Again, there were basic, necessary things you had to do that caused a pilot roll, and with my luck, I invariably rolled a 2 or boxcars or whatever and "bad things happened," as they do

[Joanna Conners]

You can't divorce MechWarrior from BT. Neither should you rely on it 100%. There's a happy medium, even if it makes some unhappy table top fans/anti-fans.

[Chaldon]

Go play the dice games at your nearby Magic: The Gathering store.

edit. Seriously. Hijacking the thread to cover your memories of die rolls does nothing for people concerned about the video game. If you want to cover impulse and fall mechanics- fine.

Edited by Chaldon, 04 January 2013 - 05:35 PM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Chaldon, on 04 January 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

This is a VIDEO GAME... NOT a dice game.

Quit whining about how game balancing is effecting your precious memories of your board game. There are more things to consider than (ie) OMG they can't give legs 3 open slots because they didn't have it in the TT game....

In my opinion:
Game development and balance overrides all things TT, MW & BattleTech canon aside from storyline.


There you are folks! Discuss.

Then don't play a game that's derived from a Tabletop game.

There, my opinion on it.

To be fair, what Battletech based games SHOULD be doing is looking at how the "Battletech Simulation" pods did their damage calculation and handled some things. That's the most true battletech experience you can get... may as well take the good things from it.

Edited by Jade Kitsune, 04 January 2013 - 05:37 PM.

[Pht]

Kraven Kor, on 04 January 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

Walking up a hill? Pilot roll.]Entering a wooded hex? Pilot roll.

Entering water? Pilot roll.

*looks at tables in the back of TW and TO*

No PSR for walking up a hill... the PSR for entering water is NEGATIVE 1 ... no PSR for entering woods ... jungle, yes, woods, no...

Quote

Again, there were basic, necessary things you had to do that caused a pilot roll, and with my luck, I invariably rolled a 2 or boxcars or whatever and "bad things happened," as they do

Yes, I'm one of those unlucky rollers myself.

[Kraven Kor]

Chaldon, on 04 January 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

Go play the dice games at your nearby Magic: The Gathering store.

edit. Seriously. Hijacking the thread to cover your memories of die rolls does nothing for people concerned about the video game. If you want to cover impulse and fall mechanics- fine.

Really? I'm hijacking by responding to a few specific details on what rules / mechanics of TT do or don't fit?

OK.

[Chaldon]

How about this one? Provided simply because it goes specifically against TT rules.

Large mechs should have more critical spots than smaller mechs.
It only makes sense larger things have more surface area to bold down different stuff.

[Pht]

Chaldon, on 04 January 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

Seriously. Hijacking the thread to cover your memories of die rolls...

He's not hijacking anything. he's replying to my post that was, itself, on topic.

Chaldon, on 04 January 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

How about this one? Provided simply because it goes specifically against TT rules.

Large mechs should have more critical spots than smaller mechs.
It only makes sense larger things have more surface area to bold down different stuff.

Already addressed in the advanced rules for BT, which gives smaller mechs less internal space than larger mechs.

[Chaldon]

I was just being testy, Kraven. It seemed that dice rolls were taking over the thread

I'm reading your Manifesto, Pht.... and loving it. Right on for getting it all out there 'on paper'.

Are you kidding me? 800 views in 3 hours?

[Nutlink]

Kraven Kor, on 04 January 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

I think there is only one mech, in the entire history of Battletech, that did not originate in Tabletop.

The beloved Uller, IIRC.

Which was introduced in a MW Game, then showed up in the TT game later.

The only piece of equipment from a MW game that did not originate in TT was the Coolant Flush (which most TT folk hated.)

Literally, every other mech, weapon, faction, or piece of equipment originated in Tabletop.

Pretty sure the Uller was in TR 3050 with the initial Clan mech list. I'm also pretty sure that a bunch of MechWarrior 4 mechs (Argus, Thanatos, Osiris, Chimera, Hellspawn, and Uziel in particular) were added specifically in that game and eventually added to the rule books later on. I also believe the bombast laser was added from that game as well. Coolant pods I'm not so sure about. I honestly haven't played the TT in a long, long time so I might be wrong on these accounts.

[Kraven Kor]

Chaldon, on 04 January 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

How about this one? Provided simply because it goes specifically against TT rules.

Large mechs should have more critical spots than smaller mechs.
It only makes sense larger things have more surface area to bold down different stuff.

Not exactly.

Look at a Humvee, or a Bradley - how much "extra stuff" can you stuff in it?

Now compare to an Abrams Tank - how much "extra stuff" fits in / on there?

What, you mean you can add more "extra stuff" to a hummer, than to a tank that weighs 5 times as much? Huh.

The bigger mechs had more tonnage to play with. The crit spaces indicated that - regardless of size - there was only so much space not taken up by chassis, myomers, electronics, etc. A 100 Ton Mech can, in every case fit "more stuff" because it has more tonnage; as tonnage scales up, the ratio of stuff you can put on it does as well.

What can a jenner squeeze into its ample critical spaces that an Atlas can't?

Endo Steel Structure, XL Engine, and Ferro Fibrous armor, and 4 - count them FOUR - Medium Lasers.

What can an Atlas fit with its massive tonnage advantage? 3 LRM-15's, a Large Laser, two Medium Lasers, Double Heat Sinks, an AMS, Beagle Active Probe, and 8 tons of ammo.

Big mechs can fit more stuff despite having the same amount of crit slots.

Edited by Kraven Kor, 04 January 2013 - 05:53 PM.

[Chaldon]

I should have picked a harder question.

[Kraven Kor]

Chaldon, on 04 January 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

I should have picked a harder question.

Challenge Accepted, with the admission that anything I rationalize is about as much "proof" of anything as crop circles are.

[IceSerpent]

Chaldon, on 04 January 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

Blowing my side of the argument out of proportion and screaming louder than me, automatically makes your opinion correct, and me incorrect.

No, your opinion is incorrect simply because you don't know what you are talking about. Opinions of other people don't affect that in any way.

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However, while based on a board game doesn't mean we have die rolls to hit to we? We aim with our mouse and if we are on target, we hit. If we suck... we miss. Where is the die roll in that?

Ever tried to use ballistic weapons? You do realize that current convergence system is indistinguishable from RNG to-hit rolls for all practical purposes, right?

Regardless, to answer your question, we don't have to have dice rolls, but there are quite a few core systems in TT that don't involve dice rolls and can be copied almost verbatim, and it would be very nice to have them implemented in a way that at least resembles the original game.

[Chaldon]

How about this.... Atlases should be able to equip all the upgrades AND still have room for their weapons.
Reliance on TT holds this back. The upgrades for atlases should each cost as much as the Atlas itself for balance.
Then we bring repairs back in and alter the economy a bit. Then a fully upgraded & dead atlas should then cost a huge sum to fix. Atlases should be rare.

Solution?

[Kraven Kor]

IceSerpent, on 04 January 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

Ever tried to use ballistic weapons? You do realize that current convergence system is indistinguishable from RNG to-hit rolls for all practical purposes, right?

Eh, not really. There is method to the madness, it can be compensated for (if you can actually monitor the Rangefinder of your reticle for every shot... I can't...) - it is not wholly random. If the reticle thinks your target is closer than it is, the shot will likely go wide one way; if the reticle thinks the target is further, it goes wide the other way.

A better correlation to the RNG would be the lag shield, but even that there is a way to manually compensate.

I am thinking that the number of missiles that hit may be a bit of an RNG type issue; at least in the sense you have less control over how many missiles hit than you do compared to, say, how much of a laser blast stays on a target.

[SJ SCP Wolf]