219 replies to this topic

[Pht]

These comments about the ballistics and randomness and RNG are truly ironic.

Had they ported over the combat system it would be entirely predictable - in math - what your hit percentages would be - and the average player would know, intuitively, what to do to make it easier for their 'mech to hit the target they were indicating.

[Kraven Kor]

Chaldon, on 04 January 2013 - 05:59 PM, said:

How about this.... Atlases should be able to equip all the upgrades AND still have room for their weapons.
Reliance on TT holds this back. The upgrades for atlases should each cost as much as the Atlas itself for balance.
Then we bring repairs back in and alter the economy a bit. Then a fully upgraded & dead atlas should then cost a huge sum to fix. Atlases should be rare.

Solution?

But without Repair and Rearm, "cost" is not a balancing factor at all.

In addition, having enough crit slots for FF and Endo Steel and DHS and an XL Engine on an Atlas would just cause that to be mandatory. Right now, it is a choice - on all mechs. You make it so the Atlas can fit them all, and then some, and suddenly, every Atlas has all upgrades (other than the debatable XL engine, most likely) and anyone in an Atlas without them is at a disadvantage (so basically, you don't pilot the Atlas until you can afford all upgrades...)

It moves the barrier of entry on the Atlas way forward, while no R&R means once bought, there are no real reasons not to use it beyond personal preference.

[Sandslice]

Kraven Kor, on 04 January 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

I think there is only one mech, in the entire history of Battletech, that did not originate in Tabletop.

The beloved Uller, IIRC.

Which was introduced in a MW Game, then showed up in the TT game later.

The only piece of equipment from a MW game that did not originate in TT was the Coolant Flush (which most TT folk hated.)

Literally, every other mech, weapon, faction, or piece of equipment originated in Tabletop.

Actually... many of the original Clan Omnis were stand-in models for Inner Sphere 'Mechs in the Virtual World simulators - which explains, eg, why a Hellbie looks like a Warhammer, a Summoner like a Thunderbolt, Gargoyle and Executioner like Banshee and Atlas, Timber Wolf like a Catapult with arms, and Mad Dog and Stormcrow like they have a slimmed-down Archer torso.

[IceSerpent]

Kraven Kor, on 04 January 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

Eh, not really. There is method to the madness, it can be compensated for (if you can actually monitor the Rangefinder of your reticle for every shot... I can't...) - it is not wholly random. If the reticle thinks your target is closer than it is, the shot will likely go wide one way; if the reticle thinks the target is further, it goes wide the other way.

I didn't say that it is RNG, I said that it's indistinguishable from such - just like you, I can't monitor rangefinder non-stop and calculate in real time the convergence point, even if I knew the convergence speed by heart. It's not really random, but when you can't predict where that round will go in relation to your reticle, you might as well be rolling dice.

Quote

I am thinking that the number of missiles that hit may be a bit of an RNG type issue; at least in the sense you have less control over how many missiles hit than you do compared to, say, how much of a laser blast stays on a target.

Missiles are different - SRMs are basically a buckshot so the effect is not so obvious on them, and the rest are guided so their hit/miss isn't affected by convergence of the launchers.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kraven Kor, on 04 January 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

I rolled a "2"

Is that good?

Crit hit Center torso... Now Good for who?

[Joseph Mallan]

Chaldon, on 04 January 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

I'm not whining. I'm just tired of people trying to reference Sarna for every little detail for in-game specs then getting mad that there has been deviation.

OF COURSE I accept that MWO's roots are from TT and BT canon. I'd expect nothing less than the games foundation to come from there. But for us, on computers, playing this RPG FPS, things get a little more complicated (just a tad) than dice and people arguing with which specs should be allowed because of a cardboard hex game from 25 years ago. I'll grand you some props because painting the dam models must have taken dozens of hours- but that has no bearing today. Put them on a collectibles shelf and have some fun in the modern era.



edit. typo

I'm trying to but folks like you keep making it so hard to do. This game is based on a TT game 30 years old. Some of those Mechanics will never work here(10 second turns), some of those Mechanics will translate with a bit of molding(ammo, armor, KpH caps). If you don't want to play a game involving the BattleTech Universe (and all the physics that can be imported) Maybe you are the one who should consider a change of perspective. The Devs says they are going to stick as close as they can to Canon BattleTech. That above anything else shoots your complaint right between the eyes.

When you play CoD you expect the game to follow certain truths created for that universe. You wouldn't expect or want Jedi in the game or Wolverine from the X-Men or Space Marines outta Warhammer. Same principle applies here. This is a BattleTech Universe Game, certain things need to be, certain things can be different so long as the feel of the game is canon enough.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 04 January 2013 - 07:04 PM.

[Kraven Kor]

For instance, if they completely changed how criticals worked - but to where the same stuff fit on the same mechs, and canon variants worked within the new rules? No problem.

If they returned to not-double armor but made the weapons do aggregate damage over 10 seconds based on their rate of fire that resulted in close-to-tabletop values? Like a Large Laser did, say, 3 points of damage over it's blast duration, and could fire just under 3 times per 10 seconds? And LRM's only did 0.5 damage each but fired 2 volleys in 10 seconds? Fine.

I'm even "OK" in theory with ECM doing so much more than it does in TT; though I'm not exactly "happy" with the current specifics.

Everyone is going to be for or against various levels of adherence to TT; I think PGI is doing OK, in general, in this regard. My big sacred thing from TT is ensuring canon builds do in fact work in MWO, and this forces custom builds to thus be more or less compatible with canon TT mech construction rules.

[Bishop Steiner]

then.......................................



QUIT PLAYING A GAME BASED ON A TABLETOP, THAT WAS PROMISED TO BE AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE TO THE TABLETOP IP.


If you don't like the tabletop game, go play f*cking Hawken.


That will be all.

[ApathyZer0]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 January 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

then.......................................



QUIT PLAYING A GAME BASED ON A TABLETOP, THAT WAS PROMISED TO BE AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE TO THE TABLETOP IP.


If you don't like the tabletop game, go play f*cking Hawken.


That will be all.

To be fair mechwarrior is more of a spinoff of BT than a true translation and that's how the series has always been. Try explaining small lasers to someone who has only played mechcommander 2. Should PPC's be blue orbs that gently drift toward a target like in MW2?

The point is if you're looking for BT online it will end in dissapointment. The game is what is and trying to alienate people who don't come from the same background as you won't help anything.

[Ryolacap]

Without TT there would be no discussion. Show some respect kid.

[ApathyZer0]

Ryolacap, on 04 January 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

Without TT there would be no discussion. Show some respect kid.

So, you're saying you don't know what a spinoff is?

[Bishop Steiner]

ApathyZer0, on 04 January 2013 - 08:15 PM, said:

To be fair mechwarrior is more of a spinoff of BT than a true translation and that's how the series has always been. Try explaining small lasers to someone who has only played mechcommander 2. Should PPC's be blue orbs that gently drift toward a target like in MW2?

The point is if you're looking for BT online it will end in dissapointment. The game is what is and trying to alienate people who don't come from the same background as you won't help anything.

I rather get that. I also get a contract. Essentially, the Developer, PGI promoted, and promised, the "game Battletech Fans Have been Waiting for Since MW2 Mercs". And that is what we were enticed to help fund, hence the "Founders Tag" on our names.

We all knew going in, that a 100% true version would not only be unlikely, but play like crap, because there IS a difference between turn based and live action. Do I think that those of us who have paid for a product are entitled to have more say than those who have not? Just go look up basic business law and marketing for your answer.

Therefore, I will comment and criticize when people come into a Mechwarrior/Battletech IP, and start saying to essentially flush all the elements that Makes it Btech/Mechwarrior down the toilet. No one would tell Star Wars game devs to "ignore the movies", or Star Trek Devs to ignore the show. Why? THose are the basis for the whole bloody game, hence the "root" and measuring stick for it. Battletech is no different. There are countless generic FPS Mecha games for that generic nonsense this though, is supposed to be Mechwarrior.

Comparing the PPC snowballs as "non-canon" is silly, because that was done regarding the code limitations of the day. You might note, that 99% of the game, from armor values, to damage, to load-outs were canon true, even if the rate of fire and heat scale needed tweaking for "live" play.

[Bishop Steiner]

Pht, on 04 January 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

He's not hijacking anything. he's replying to my post that was, itself, on topic.



Already addressed in the advanced rules for BT, which gives smaller mechs less internal space than larger mechs.

which would start massive QQing by the min/max crowd if their Jenners and Ravens couldn't fit Ferro AND Endo AND DHS AND XL Engines ... AND Still somehow mount ECM, 3 PPC and a Gauss Cannon (Slight exaggeration for emphasis)

[Inappropriate1191]

PiemasterXL, on 04 January 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

Hold on, you didn't roll to see the effectiveness of your argument.

But he sure rolled a great score for trolling!

[HiplyRustic]

Chaldon, on 04 January 2013 - 05:59 PM, said:

How about this.... Atlases should be able to equip all the upgrades AND still have room for their weapons.
Reliance on TT holds this back. The upgrades for atlases should each cost as much as the Atlas itself for balance.
Then we bring repairs back in and alter the economy a bit. Then a fully upgraded & dead atlas should then cost a huge sum to fix. Atlases should be rare.

Solution?

The solution, of course, is to declare the position itself idiotic.

You can make up any scenario that flies in the face of TT and do the same thing. "Atlases, being rare and expensive, should have roflcopter blades that not only let them fly but act as melee weapons. Solution?"

Look, it's simple: see all those people posting with "Founder" in their titles? They put money on the line based on a game promised to be as close to canon as could be made playable. You didn't (I didn't upfront either, although I have since, which is why I don't start stupid arguments like this one...not to mention that if I bought a game called Star Wars Galaxies...which I did...I would damned well expect it to be about Star Wars). The developers made promises prior to those people parting with their money. If you don't like the direction being taken in the game their money caused to exist, leave for a game that appeals to you.

Edited by HiplyRustic, 05 January 2013 - 05:25 PM.

[Viper69]

Chaldon, on 04 January 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

This is a VIDEO GAME... NOT a dice game.

Quit whining about how game balancing is effecting your precious memories of your board game. There are more things to consider than (ie) OMG they can't give legs 3 open slots because they didn't have it in the TT game....

In my opinion:
Game development and balance overrides all things TT, MW & BattleTech canon aside from storyline.


There you are folks! Discuss.

Someone just looted a Mr.Obvious nametag +5.

No **** its not the table top game, however its core is based off of that game as was all the mechwarrior games. Each one took liberties with the system as it saw fit. For some reason all the other MW games got by with standard armor value and weapons values just fine, heck we even had *GASP* online tournament leagues and people didnt complain because their mech got cored in 30 seconds, they played smarter, not coddled like infants that MWO seems to breed. "LEts double armor because people want to fight longer" "Lets change the way heat works because we want matches to last longer".

If the game is independent of the board game then change all the names of things that they share with the table top game. Trust me I dont mind the liberties the game maker takes because I dont want to fire and move every ten seconds. However dont try to lecture us on the differences between the two yet their similarities outweigh their differences.

[ApathyZer0]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 January 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

I rather get that. I also get a contract. Essentially, the Developer, PGI promoted, and promised, the "game Battletech Fans Have been Waiting for Since MW2 Mercs". And that is what we were enticed to help fund, hence the "Founders Tag" on our names.

We all knew going in, that a 100% true version would not only be unlikely, but play like crap, because there IS a difference between turn based and live action. Do I think that those of us who have paid for a product are entitled to have more say than those who have not? Just go look up basic business law and marketing for your answer.

Therefore, I will comment and criticize when people come into a Mechwarrior/Battletech IP, and start saying to essentially flush all the elements that Makes it Btech/Mechwarrior down the toilet. No one would tell Star Wars game devs to "ignore the movies", or Star Trek Devs to ignore the show. Why? THose are the basis for the whole bloody game, hence the "root" and measuring stick for it. Battletech is no different. There are countless generic FPS Mecha games for that generic nonsense this though, is supposed to be Mechwarrior.

Comparing the PPC snowballs as "non-canon" is silly, because that was done regarding the code limitations of the day. You might note, that 99% of the game, from armor values, to damage, to load-outs were canon true, even if the rate of fire and heat scale needed tweaking for "live" play.

Are you implying that PGI has offered you up some legal document swearing to abide by your hopes and dreams for the implementation of features and gameplay? You may want to check the fine print.

Ok, you've spent money on the game. I have too. Does that in some way make your opinion on things in the game more valid than others? You're not an investor, the money you spent purchased the founders package. I have yet to see any evidence that package includes stock in PGI. You paid for services rendered which in this case was access to the game before open beta, alternate versions of basic mechs, and some premium time. That doesn't make you a game designer, developer, or quality assurance employee.

The examples I gave were not to show that mechwarrior games don't follow TT. Mechwarrior games have never had a great deal of continuity between titles. Developers adjust as they see fit to make the game fun(something we both seem to agree on).

The people who are acting out against BT is a result of the hardcore fanbase rather than the actual ruleset. There seems to be an attitude with many of you to try and push people away from what you view as yours and heaven forbid if anyone who hasn't been playing TT for years touches anything, because they'll only make it dirty.

[Joseph Mallan]

ApathyZer0, on 04 January 2013 - 08:15 PM, said:

To be fair mechwarrior is more of a spinoff of BT than a true translation and that's how the series has always been. Try explaining small lasers to someone who has only played mechcommander 2. Should PPC's be blue orbs that gently drift toward a target like in MW2?

The point is if you're looking for BT online it will end in dissapointment. The game is what is and trying to alienate people who don't come from the same background as you won't help anything.

Really? Cause this is BattleTech Online as far as I can tell. There is minimal work invested in the pilot of the vehicle... you know The MechWarrior. In MechWarrior there are Character Trees and background for the characters we are playing... you know the MechWarriors. As I see it, this is BattleTech OnLine. See, In Battletech a Character is little more than a name and a Pilot and Gunnery skill. The Mech is what is important. The Mech is what the game is about. 25 years of playing TT involved questions like , Who shot the Seraph? I moved my Battlemaster up to the top of that Lvl4 hill. Is that Marauder dead? We are playing BattleTech on line. You really don't want to play MechWarrior on line cause there is so much involved in creating the MechWarrior we would be on the keyboard typing for hours!

[Lucian Nostra]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 January 2013 - 09:09 PM, said:

Really? Cause this is BattleTech Online as far as I can tell. There is minimal work invested in the pilot of the vehicle... you know The MechWarrior. In MechWarrior there are Character Trees and background for the characters we are playing... you know the MechWarriors. As I see it, this is BattleTech OnLine. See, In Battletech a Character is little more than a name and a Pilot and Gunnery skill. The Mech is what is important. The Mech is what the game is about. 25 years of playing TT involved questions like , Who shot the Seraph? I moved my Battlemaster up to the top of that Lvl4 hill. Is that Marauder dead? We are playing BattleTech on line. You really don't want to play MechWarrior on line cause there is so much involved in creating the MechWarrior we would be on the keyboard typing for hours!

Come on man just pick your life modules quickly you know your gonna die to the first pack of npcs to fire gyrojet guns at you anyway..

[Joseph Mallan]

No sir I have a really killer Dodge/reflex score!