1063 replies to this topic

[TheForce]

Elyam, on 08 January 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

Largely agree with you Op, but I believe PGI's choices so far make the obstacle of player perception too great. We'll likely have to wait for the next BT/MW title to have a chance at a mechwarrior experience that matches the lowtech realities of BT.

Not just PGI's choices, but the history of ALLMW titles.

If I had no knowledge of table top, and I had only played previous MW titles, I could not understand what MechWarrior should have been

[HRR Insanity]

Tolkien, on 08 January 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

Hi there, wanted to chip in that I more or less agree with the original poster, though I wanted to point our that as far as I can recall MPBT3025 approached the problem by having grouped weapons (or even rapid fired weapons of the same type e.g. 4x medium lasers on a jenner) automatically go to random hit locations.

IIRC, MPBT3025 actually just flat reduced the total damage in the grouped damage packet by a %. The extra damage went 'poof'.

So if I fired 5MLs a single 'group', the total expected damage was 25, but in effect, it dealt 10 or 12 to the panel that was hit.

[Bubba Wilkins]

The system as is works fine with heat providing the necessary detriment to Alpha Strikes and large weapons groups.

You keep adding complexity on complexity to a problem which is largely non-existent. For the sake of gameplay, things work well and all the changes you are suggesting would largely make the game unattractive and unplayable.

As I stated in an earlier post, there is nothing in canon or in TT which implies that weapons are innacurate. Since we have real pilot error, there is no reason to introduce some arbitrary "accuracy" stat for each weapon or weapon firing state.

You're basically proposing taking EVE's combat system and adding manual aiming on top of it. This would be a very bad idea.

Edited by Bubba Wilkins, 08 January 2013 - 03:11 PM.

[chiXnhawk]

Add a cone of fire and KaoS will move to BF3.

[Damocles]

chiXnhawk, on 08 January 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

Add a cone of fire and KaoS will move to BF3.

Doesn't BF3 have a COF?

[TheForce]

chiXnhawk, on 08 January 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

Add a cone of fire and KaoS will move to BF3.

If they don't add cone of fire, Clan Boating Whure will move to WoT.

edit: BRO!

Edited by TheForce, 08 January 2013 - 04:16 PM.

[TheForce]

HRR Insanity, on 08 January 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

IIRC, MPBT3025 actually just flat reduced the total damage in the grouped damage packet by a %. The extra damage went 'poof'.

So if I fired 5MLs a single 'group', the total expected damage was 25, but in effect, it dealt 10 or 12 to the panel that was hit.

The devs talked about doing something like this with streaks:

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1478707

[Sug]

Bubba Wilkins, on 08 January 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

As I stated in an earlier post, there is nothing in canon or in TT which implies that weapons are innacurate. Since we have real pilot error, there is no reason to introduce some arbitrary "accuracy" stat for each weapon or weapon firing state.

Hi.

http://www.sarna.net...geting_computer

"The Targeting Computer was introduced by Clan Mongoose in 2860.[1] Targeting Computers are sophisticated pieces of electronics that, unlike normal targeting systems, physically help MechWarriors target their opponents. Recoil compensators and gyroscopic stabilizers are used to prevent normal weapon drift from factors such as recoil and movement while the computer accounts for atmospheric and other conditions to present an accurate "lead" on the target. This allows for more surgical precision of weapons fire, especially with naturally accurate systems, allowing for the user to hit specific parts on the target vehicle."

_


"The decline of technology during the Succession Wars had keenly affected the science of weapons manufacture and design. No longer could the complex control systems for fire-and-forget missiles, long-range particle beams or lasers be packed into units small enough and cheap enough to be casually expended in combat. Battlemech engagements teneded to be brutal, short-ranged affairs, with individual Mechs closing to a few tens of meters to deliver killing shots.

Theoretically, the laser under the Locust's chin could hit anything in line-of-sight clear to the horizon. That range was sharply reduced, however by the quality of the weapon controls systems that pointed the heavy barrel. Grayson could not count on hitting anything with that laser at ranges greater than about 300 meters. "

- Battletech - Decision at Thunder Rift - Chapter 18

_


"Both of the Warhawk's arms ended in weapon pods that housed PPCs mated with pulse lasers. The PPC's azure beams sizzled out and stabbed into Phelan's Lone Wolf. One lashed the Mech's right arm, flaying armor from shoulder to elbow. The other beam burned a jagged scare down the Omni's right leg, dropping steaming sheets of armor onto the hilltop."

- Battletech - Blood Legacy - Chapter 19

_

"Rose bracketed the Marauder with the Shigunga and fired again. He also triggered the medium pulse lasers, but at this extreme range, only two of the four scored hits."

Battletech - Main Event - Chapter 28

_

"In return the Dasher fired five lasers back at Rianna's Phoenix Hawk. Although none had the power of her Sunbeam laser, the combined effect was devastating. Gouges marked her Mech's chest, arms, and left leg."

Battletech - Main Event - Chapter 31

_

"Doc thumbed the top triggers of his joysticks. The large lasers built into the Penetrator's arms stabbed verdant beams through the smoke and hit the Galahad as the manlike Mech came upright again. One beam melted a channel through the armor on the Mech's right thigh. The other struck the Galahad in the head, bubbling up all the but the last bit of armor shielding the pilot."

- Battletech - Malicious Intent - Chapter 26

_

"The Awesome again belched out three spears of artificial lightning. One drilled to the center of the Victor, and managed to punch a small hole through Sortek's armor without breeching it entirely. ..... The other two shots, which melted angry weals on the Victor's left arm and torso, did nothing but burn armor and paint from their target."

- Battletech - Warrior: En Garde - Chapter 21

Edited by Sug, 08 January 2013 - 05:27 PM.

[Pht]

HRR Insanity, on 07 January 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

In brief, without weapon spread, BattleTech weapon, critical, internal structure, and armor models can not and will not be balanced in a MechWarrior game. This is not hyperbole. This is fact. If you have a system where you can add more than one weapon of a given type to a ‘Mech and shoot them with pinpoint accuracy, you have effectively created WeaponX2. Or WeaponX5. Or whatever multiplier is appropriate. If I can combine 8 Medium Lasers into a ‘super-laser’ that hits for 8-times the damage due to pin-point accuracy and convergence, the weapon/armor model will ALWAYS be broken. Doesn’t matter if it’s lasers, PPCs, Gauss, or ACs.

Absolutely, 110% agreed.

You are dead-on.

You can not take values from a combat system balanced for spread weapons fire and put it into a combat system that does not spread weapons fire; and the dual reticles doesn't fix this, as it still gives the player (instead of the battlemech) direct control of the weapons.

I don't agree with the idea of the cones of fire; I think it would be needlessly complex and because of this result in unintended consequences and counter-intuitive combat play. Besides which, the TTR system is not (currently) balanced for having the ability to hit anything you want on a mobile target with even one weapon - imagine a heavy gauss hitting whatever you wanted vs tt armor numbers- the consequences quickly become obvious.

A third way between zero convergence and cones of fire:

http://mwomercs.com/...different-idea/


As for more precision being allowed with a single weapon - I could see essentially "adding" that to the TTR's in a way that it is balanced within that system and that also converts over to the MW real-time format.

Possibly, say, allow it if you spend 30 second tracking a single armor section of a mobile target 'mech with the reticule. That just might be worth playtesting, and could be justified in the lore to some small extent. In this way your mech has the time to get a really good physical alignment and targeting fix in its computers, and it would require player skill. Also, maybe only allow this at medium or a fraction of long range for whatever weapon, to discourage incessant BVR sniping.

Edited by Pht, 08 January 2013 - 06:01 PM.

[Pht]

Bubba Wilkins, on 08 January 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

The system as is works fine with heat providing the necessary detriment to Alpha Strikes and large weapons groups.

If the idea of using the TT damage/armor values in a different combat system worked fine, they would have never had to go to double armor and all of the weapons tweaks.

Quote

As I stated in an earlier post, there is nothing in canon or in TT which implies that weapons are innacurate. Since we have real pilot error, there is no reason to introduce some arbitrary "accuracy" stat for each weapon or weapon firing state.

It's not the weapons that give rise to weapons fire spread. The individual weapons themselves are VERY accurate - a vanilla medium laser in an arm mount with a vanilla pilot and no targeting computer under the TTR's can hit a mech sized target 108,000 meters away.

what gives rise to the spread is the battlemech's weapons handling capability - they are not capable of getting multiple weapons to hit a single armor panel on a mobile mech sized target - this is riddled right throuthout the lore everywhere.

If you want the genesis of this:

There you go.

[G4M3R]

Honestly if there's anything close to weapon spread for a weapon that's not a missile. I would just rage quit. What's the point. Tried of the COD type reticule.

Bring back old school FPS, no spread, just pure aim.

[Pht]

G4M3R, on 08 January 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

Honestly if there's anything close to weapon spread for a weapon that's not a missile. I would just rage quit. What's the point. Tried of the COD type reticule.

Bring back old school FPS, no spread, just pure aim.

So, you like FPS games, where you directly control a weapon - that's fine.

MW is not about directly controlling weapons. MW is about directly controlling an armored combat unit, and that armored combat unit is in direct control of those weapons.

There is no less skill in either of these two types of gameplay.

In fps games, you have to know your weapon and how to use it best.

In an MW game, you have to know your 'Mech and how to use it best.


...


I really dont' see a good reason to rage-quit a mech combat sim game in which the ... mech ... combat... is simulated.

Edited by Pht, 08 January 2013 - 06:22 PM.

[MaddMaxx]

The implementation of any type of CoF, with a Bloom factor or not, would also have to include many, many other factors, such as deflection angle calculations, consistent spread based on said deflection. Does the spread from the weapons on the Left side of my Mech have to aimed to the right side of the enemy target to assure that some form of spread does not waste ammo or Heat when that spread would go from the center of the shot left or right in some random pattern.

Much of this spread talk would seem to be taken from a Frontal Attack always perspective, That being where the most surface area would be exposed and thus maximize the damage applied based on the best possible spread profile. Turn many Mechs sideways and the those Hit chance with any spread introduced is reduced to a point that firing would be counter productive. No firing solution, worth the time to set up in the Heat of Battle, should be counter productive.

Perhaps reducing the current range increments and subsequent damage fall off could be reduced from the current 2X for Energy and 3X for Ballistics would go along way to putting those weapons with range the advantage they always afforded the Pilot who took both the Heat and weight required to get that Ranged advantage.

Of course, the GR is always the anomaly in all this but the current 3 HP set up makes the weapon dangerous to use inside the range of many others that before was not as problematic. The 2x GR K2 is not the beats it used to be as a result. Adding some form of spread to a 2x weapon setup would really hurt to many weapons.

The whole notion of slowing things down to be able to get accurate firing solution is a poor model idea as well. As things are slow is bad. Standing around trying to get a decent firing solution would make those heavy hitting Long range weapons resurface with a vengeance ans it is just recently thy have been put back into the place where they always should have belonged.

Imagine the shagrin and uproar when the GR gets to sit back and watch everyone else slow down to fight those inside their own shorter range weapons in order to actually maximize the damage inflicted. Laser already have burn times and if the enemy wants to stand still then perhaps they deserve to get a pin point burn on a single panel.

If we consider that a Mech only has limited panels to hit, all adding some form of spread for multiple weapon groups would do is alienate even more weapons that are already on the shelf.

Personally, having to fire each weapon as an individual unit, or slow down to maximize my builds damage potential sounds weak.

It would seem simpler and likely much easier to tweak to use a form of increase in the Heat generated by weapon clusters and thus forcing the player to simply use less of any one weapon or face the Heat penalties, and any additional pain the Dev many introduce in the future, when firing groups of weapons above 2.

As noted above, The GR is an ammo dependent weapon so that can be addressed separately if needed.

[Pht]

MaddMaxx, on 08 January 2013 - 06:26 PM, said:

The implementation of any type of CoF, with a Bloom factor or not, would also have to include many, many other factors, such as deflection angle calculations, consistent spread based on said deflection. Does the spread from the weapons on the Left side of my Mech have to aimed to the right side of the enemy target to assure that some form of spread does not waste ammo or Heat when that spread would go from the center of the shot left or right in some random pattern.

Agreed. While the goal of a COF system is a necessary thing in an MW video game ... the COF system is a less than desireable fix.

Quite frankly, it's entirely possible to use the tabletop combat system without it's pilot-skill simulating parts in a real-time first person format; it would have the TT system's 20+ years of testing, and tweaks would have predictable results.

http://mwomercs.com/...different-idea/

Quote

Much of this spread talk would seem to be taken from a Frontal Attack always perspective, That being where the most surface area would be exposed and thus maximize the damage applied based on the best possible spread profile. Turn many Mechs sideways and the those Hit chance with any spread introduced is reduced to a point that firing would be counter productive. No firing solution, worth the time to set up in the Heat of Battle, should be counter productive.

Hnh. Yet another reason agains the COF. BT 'Mechs are capable of hitting mobile target mechs with a thin profile, at worst you incur a +1 on 2d6 to hit a really thin-profile target 'Mech.

The TTR combat system already has this accounted for.

Edited by Pht, 08 January 2013 - 06:35 PM.

[ODonovan]

Krzysztof z Bagien, on 08 January 2013 - 01:03 AM, said:

OP's ideas just don't fit video game, at least not any kind of shooter (and MWO is a shooter, no matter what you say).

Krzysztof z Bagien, on 08 January 2013 - 01:19 AM, said:

I don't play any of the games you listed, can't say anything (and don't care actually) about other people.

So, ANY kind of shooter includes all the ones that use the OP's ideas...the ones you don't play any of? You DO know that makes absolutely no sense, right?

Apoc1138, on 08 January 2013 - 01:34 AM, said:

you seem to be confusing this; http://en.wikipedia....le-playing_game) with this; http://en.wikipedia....deo_game_series) alot of people being drawn to MWO are those that previously played the mechwarrior video games...

That's basically just what -I- said. I find it amusing that everyone refers back to the BattleTech tabletop game to say "this will never work" but when someone else says this is a BattleTech simulator (which the devs have said it is), they whine that it's not BattleTech. CLUE: THEY'RE THE SAME THING! The MechWarrior video games were computer versions of BattleTech, no matter what they changed or how they F'd it up. They used the title MechWarrior because it sounded cool and allowed the players to be warriors. That's also what MWO is...a computer version of BattleTech.

Saevel, on 08 January 2013 - 03:07 AM, said:

The OP basically wants a set of dice to appear when they press fire. Firing one weapon nets you a hit on a 1 or higher, firing additional weapons nets you a hit or increasingly higher numbers until your pretty much wasting your time shooting. Therefore your forced to fire a single weapon at a time. This will make light mechs even more OP as they tend to back low numbers of weapons. Heavys and Assaults will be severely nerfed as they'll constantly waste all their shots to do the same damage a light mech does.

Congratulations! You get the "completely misunderstood the OP" award. The OP said nothing about dice. You're trolling. Additional weapons will still all hit. You're trolling. All this means is that boating a bunch of weapons won't make them into one massively overpowered superweapon which totally destroys game balance. Light 'mechs will actually have the same benefits and handicaps as other 'mechs, so they won't become any more OP than they are. In fact, with them unable to mass fire a group of small weapons (such as the six ML Jenner) into the same rear torso at one time, they will actually become less of a threat.

Quote

MWO is not a pure FPS but it sure as hell isn't a TT or turn based game. There should be absolutely no random dice based firing.

Nobody said it is and nobody said their should be. Those are straw man arguments. You're still trolling.

Quote

The only weapons that would be effected by "movement / vibrations" would be AC's. Lasers are light based and have zero trajectory or flight time. Gause(sic) rifles travel are such high speeds that they have flat trajectories and nearly zero flight time. LRMs / Streaks are guided missles, SRM's are self propelled and go straight after firing. Physics don't support what the OP is demanding. Aiming is an important skill and has been part of MW for a long time.

What a load of horse puckey. Take a laser pointer and aim it at a target. Let me jiggle your shoulders and see if you can keep it on the same point. EVERYTHING is effected by movement and vibration.

TexAss, on 08 January 2013 - 03:22 AM, said:

This is not how FPS work and it shouldn't be.

As has been pointed out several times...yes, it IS how FPS work.

Quote

If physics alter my aim or the flypath of a ballistic round, then fine, but don't give me any RNG that turns on when I shoot. This IS NOT TT. When will you TT addicts realize that you are in a minority here.

Another straw man argument. You're trolling now. Nobody says this is TT BattleTech. GROW UP!

Quote

You NEED the casual gamers, the FPS game players and the old MW game likers or otherwise you won't have any game at all.

Exactly! That's why the OP proposed this fix for a very broken part of the game. We're hemorrhaging players because things are not being fixed and the game is not getting better in a number of meaningful ways. If superweapons aren't addressed, you're right...we won't have any game at all.



-Irish

[Pht]

BTW.

For those who don't know how you would aim in a real-time first person implementation of the TT combat system, you'd ... use your mouse to directly control a reticule on the main HUD of the 'mech, and your 'Mech would do it's best to hit what you're indicating.

You'd still have to choose the target, you'd still have to track what part of it you wanted with the reticule, you'd still have to choose when and what to fire.

[ODonovan]

ParasiteX, on 08 January 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:

So you want Mechwarrior to be turned based as well? Seriously.. some TT rules simply don't translate well to Mechwarrior. Plain and simple.

Now lets imagine for example, that your designing a battlemech in real life.. Why would you purposely make group firing less accurate?

Turn based? Straw man... You're trolling. Stop, please.

We're not designing a battlemech in real life. As you are SO quick to point out about this not being TT BattleTech, the same goes with this not being real life. We're trying, through our input, to help the devs balance a video game so it's playable and fun.

Lexeii, on 08 January 2013 - 03:45 AM, said:

Introducing CoF depending on speed severely punishes light mecs(sic) that rely on speed to survive, that's all it does. I can't stop to aim, if I do, I'm dead.

The three movement states are stopped, walking, and running. A light 'mech still walks a lot faster than a heavy or assault, so does not suffer the run penalty until they go a lot faster. They can still get behind a larger 'mech, slow down to a walk speed level, then unload...speeding up afterwards to line up their next shot. Wow...tactics!

Quote

So while weapon balance isn't perfect I don't think a random CoF is the key to solving this.

No one is suggesting a random CoF. The OP isn't saying if you aim at the head you're going to hit the leg.



((RE: HRR Insanity's statement, "Large weapons are not powerful (Single AC20 = not dangerous)"))

MrPenguin, on 08 January 2013 - 04:42 AM, said:

Oh god, my sides!

Your sides are hurting rather than your head because your brain is taking a nice rest. If you get an AC/20 which has limited ammo, is very heavy, and can have ammo explosions and match it up with four MLs and a few extra HS to cover the difference in heat, the AC/20 is hugely underpowered for its weight. Add to that the fact the AC/20 was designed as a weapon which could blow off limbs or heads with one shot and can no longer do that and the word "gimped" definitely comes to mind.

idle crow, on 08 January 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:

It be the death of ridge/hill sniping. You can't exactly come over and take 6 seconds to line up and fire 6 PPC on a Stalker.

Oh my ghod... The very fact that someone would even consider boating SIX PPCs on one 'mech is the best evidence I can think of for how broken this game really is.

Shismar, on 08 January 2013 - 05:29 AM, said:

Sorry OP, this is not TT Battletech and never will be and never should. The developers made that clear.

Stop it with that same old tired line. Just STOP IT! Don't be a moron, please. We KNOW it's not the tabletop game. No one says it is. You already know that. Everyone does. That being said, you might want to read what the devs have said, which is that they want this to be as much like the original BattleTech game as possible.

Quote

But the goal should never be to get closer to TT rules just for the sake of getting more TT. They should be for the general improvement of gameplay and enjoyment of Mechwarrior Online.

Neither should they be changed simply to change them when they make the game worse instead of better. Cases in point...double armor, faster recycle time not balanced with heat dissipation, head hitboxes being different sizes on some 'mechs (Atlas, anyone?), making them virtually invulnerable to head shots. I could go on, but I trust the point is made.

GrizzlyViking, on 08 January 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

lol

Wow, what a genuinely inspired solution to the problem! You win the "most useless response" award. Congratulations.

chiXnhawk, on 08 January 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

Add a cone of fire and KaoS will move to BF3.

Kewl! Can we have your stuff?

Pht, on 08 January 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

If the idea of using the TT damage/armor values in a different combat system worked fine, they would have never had to go to double armor and all of the weapons tweaks.

I think the point has been made over and over that they DIDN'T need to double the armor. That was the first rock in the landslide that caused unbalanced changes, each one making the game more broken in the name of balance. They doubled the armor to make the game last longer. But wait... Then they made the weapons recycle three times as fast, basically making the armor only 2/3 as useful as it was originally. So why double it in the first place? But wait... They didn't make the heat sinks remove heat at the same rate as the faster recycle time, so that broke high heat weapons such as PPCs. But wait... Now 'mechs can mount a number of smaller weapons which will always hit together, basically making them into one superweapon. But wait... Et cetera. Et cetera. Et cetera. It's time for this to end and for the devs to make an effort to restore game balance. If not, the game is going to die.




-Irish

[Pht]

ODonovan, on 08 January 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

I think the point has been made over and over that they DIDN'T need to double the armor. That was the first rock in the landslide that caused unbalanced changes, each one making the game more broken in the name of balance. They doubled the armor to make the game last longer. But wait... Then they made the weapons recycle three times as fast, basically making the armor only 2/3 as useful as it was originally. So why double it in the first place? But wait... They didn't make the heat sinks remove heat at the same rate as the faster recycle time, so that broke high heat weapons such as PPCs. But wait... Now 'mechs can mount a number of smaller weapons which will always hit together, basically making them into one superweapon. But wait... Et cetera. Et cetera. Et cetera. It's time for this to end and for the devs to make an effort to restore game balance. If not, the game is going to die.

I think they decided to double the armor values because they thought the 'mechs were dying "too quickly" and turning the game into a sort of UT style insta-gib game.

Edited by Pht, 08 January 2013 - 06:58 PM.

[Soy]

Hey look, thread still continuing, full of BT fans that aren't actually into video games and more into rolling dice.

Aim.

[Sug]

Pht, on 08 January 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

It's not the weapons that give rise to weapons fire spread. The individual weapons themselves are VERY accurate - a vanilla medium laser in an arm mount with a vanilla pilot and no targeting computer under the TTR's can hit a mech sized target 108,000 meters away.