78 replies to this topic

[Solis Obscuri]

Not entirely sold on some of your "rare salvage" ideas, but from an RPG standpoint, you have some interesting ideas. And I like your skill tree.

[Carrioncrows]

Solis Obscuri, on 01 February 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

Not entirely sold on some of your "rare salvage" ideas, but from an RPG standpoint, you have some interesting ideas. And I like your skill tree.

What about it gives you hesitation?

The Rare Salvage idea is built towards two ideas:

1. Reward the player for playing. The longer you play the more chances you have to pick up some of this rare salvage. It's that rare moment after a match and the screen pops up "You got Rare Salvage" and you go all "hercules!"

It may be useful it may not, but it rewards the player, fires them up and gets them excited so they go to their friends and go "I just got blah blah blah" and they go "Luckee!"

Those kind of moments are fun.

2. Long term goals. As mentioned above those kind of moments are fun but there is also the guy that goes I like the Martel Medium laser and I want to make a Hunchback-4P with nothing but Martel Medium lasers, so now that guy has a long term goal of trying to acquire that many Martel medium lasers either through the black market or getting rare salvage.

I for one miss the repair and rearm costs. It kept things in perspective and balanced a few builds. Now when using rare salvage that salvage is subject to the R&R rules. So if it breaks you have to pay to fix it, or pay to rearm it. And that can be a lot of what keeps rare salvage balanced. Lets say the guy with the hunchback-4P goes out with his rare loot and gets is ride blown out from under him in the first few minutes of the match, match ends and it costs significantly more to repair his mech than he just earned.

Perspective.

[Solis Obscuri]

Leary about the idea of "not better, just different". I've rarely seen that implemented well anywhere - generally something is either just better or worse. The you typically see a lot of people grinding exclusively to get the "good" drop items, and a mentality trending toward what you have in the game being more important than what you do in the game.

I'm personally of the mindset that playing the game should be rewarding and enjoyable as an activity, not just a grindy scavenger hunt. I think there's also a not-so-fine line between "rewarding people for playing more" and "punishing people for playing less".

[CancR]

Solis Obscuri, on 01 February 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:

Leary about the idea of "not better, just different". I've rarely seen that implemented well anywhere - generally something is either just better or worse. The you typically see a lot of people grinding exclusively to get the "good" drop items, and a mentality trending toward what you have in the game being more important than what you do in the game.

I'm personally of the mindset that playing the game should be rewarding and enjoyable as an activity, not just a grindy scavenger hunt. I think there's also a not-so-fine line between "rewarding people for playing more" and "punishing people for playing less".

Not to mention no game that added tons of variants of weapons ever stayed balance. See tf2, CoD, and Tribes Ascend.

[Carrioncrows]

Solis Obscuri, on 01 February 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:

Leary about the idea of "not better, just different". I've rarely seen that implemented well anywhere - generally something is either just better or worse. The you typically see a lot of people grinding exclusively to get the "good" drop items, and a mentality trending toward what you have in the game being more important than what you do in the game.

I'm personally of the mindset that playing the game should be rewarding and enjoyable as an activity, not just a grindy scavenger hunt. I think there's also a not-so-fine line between "rewarding people for playing more" and "punishing people for playing less".

I hear what your saying.

But I still think it would be easy enough to balance. Lets look at a few of the examples I posted

Martel Medium Laser - 1 Ton, 3 Slots - 6 damage. (might even drop it to 5.5 dmg)
So this rare salvage would deal 1 more damage than the regular laser but take up 3 slots with a minor drop in range. So this would obviously be a good deal. But it's not something that can be boated, nor something you could put on the CT or head. So this weapon brings more firepower but at a price, it's a lot bulker and might only benefit designs like the Awesome or stalker that can afford to waste slots.

Luxor Series D AC20 - 14 tons, 10 slots - 18 dmg
The trade off here is the AC20 only deals 18 dmg but has the velocity and range of a AC10. You do less damage than a full blown AC20 but it gives you a longer effective range turning it into more of a sniping cannon. Something to play cat and mouse with targets at range. It doesn't outclass the Guass simply because it's still just as bulky as a AC/20 and has the same cycle time.

Zues PPC - 5 tons, 6 slots - 10 dmg (I would tack on a 4 sec cycle time)
The Zues is a lightweight PPC, once again you are trading slots for weight. Yes it's 2 tons lighter but it is also bulkier The idea here is to be an attractive option for lighter mechs that have more space than weight as opposed to heavier mechs which have less slots.

I don't see of any of the above weapons as strictly better options than the standard stock weapons. There is definitely builds and mech variants where they will really shine but if they are "Built" right the balancing should be self evident. Also, as mentioned the repair and rearm costs for running rare salvage.

As for punishing people for playing less that's totally not the case, people that play more earn more cbills, people that play less earn less. There is no punishment. people that play more will have more rare salvage.

Rare salvage is a bonus and something unique and rewarding but it's not a requirement. Not every mech absolutely requires Rare salvage. What it does, is offer options on certain mechs that were not previously accessible before.

Edited by Carrioncrows, 01 February 2013 - 08:32 PM.

[CancR]

The devs cant even balance what they have put in the game already, and you expect them to balance variants upon variant? No. Nooo.

[Tice Daurus]

I would agree with this. Give the parts a SLIGHT edge, but have something that would offset the balance. A Martell Medium Laser would be special because while normal medium lasers do 5 points of damage, and has 1 slot, a Martell might do a bit more damage, but would be bulkier. And I wouldn't go 3 slots, but I'd go 2 slots.

And it doesn't have to be weapons. You could put in a rare gyro that increases your torso twist range from say 120 degree direction to 180 degree direction, but it would have to be paired with another of the same rare gryo so that BOTH would have to be in place for the effect to happen.
Or a gyro that allows you more flexability to where instead of only getting a 30 percent up and down tilt on a mech, you can go 40 percent. However again, you'd have to have BOTH.

Or say installing a specialized sensor system, that requires it to fill the free slot of your cockpit systems and weighs an extra ton but it allows for cheaper costs to purchase sensor modifications when you get a mastery and buy them.

There could be a lot of different uses for rare salvage as long as while it provides a benefit there's also a cost to having it in your mech, something to balance it out.

Another thing I would love to see with this RARE salvage idea and one I've pushed them the DEV's to incorporate, hiring an Astech/Battlemech technician that would be in your employ. You'd have to pay him a monthly salary each month in the game, and depending on his experience level, he could be a green tech to average to experienced/veteran to master technician. The higher his skills, the better benefits he could provide.
He could help make purchase or repair costs cheaper, he could be a scrounger able to buy parts on the black market, or be able to help increase the ability to find a rare part on the battlefield when he checks for salvage.

[Carrioncrows]

CancR, on 01 February 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

The devs cant even balance what they have put in the game already, and you expect them to balance variants upon variant? No. Nooo.

I am 3 years out of 4 years towards my BA in Game and Art Design. Right now the developers are balancing what is to be the foundation of MWO. If it is done right the foundation is going to see MWO be successful for years and if it is exceptional see this game hold it's weight for upwards of a decade. It is by far the hardest part.

Balance is frustrating and takes time, they are using the beta testers as a resource to proof has been done.

But once the foundation is done balancing every other new weapon or new feature becomes exceptionally easy. They have the foundation, the wire frame they know what is working and what isn't work.

Tice Daurus, on 01 February 2013 - 09:04 PM, said:

...

See the Pitman 150 Engine listed on the first page. Basically a rare Salvage Engine.

A regular STD 150 Engine weighs 6.5 tons and takes up 6 slots
A Rare Pitman STD 150 engine would weigh 8.5 tons but only take up 4 slots.

Is that super useful? Not on a great many mechs, but put it in a centurion that has 2 Energy Hard points in it's CT and now instead of only being able to put 2 Medium lasers you can now put 2 Large lasers, or 1 PPC and a medium in the CT.

The trade off is it's a heavier but less bulky engine.

I see you mentioning the technician and that is a interesting idea, and their might be a way to incorporate that into the game already. As previous mentioned the community warfare represents you as a mechwarrior working for different factions and it could be you just cash in some of your loyalty points to gain access to rare salvage.

Not all factions would have access to the same rare salvage. Each faction sort of has their own identity for what they like and what they don't. Like Kurita's love for AC5's and PPCs.

[Tice Daurus]

CC, I'm sure that each faction will be able to incorporate that certain faction areas that you are defending will have certain weapons for a cheaper price because they are in that faction area. So if you are guarding that area, and it contains a mech factory on the planet that manufactures certain mechs or weapons, you could get them for cheaper.

But the idea you have does have merit. I just hope the developers see the merit in it as well and can incorporate it into the game. Tapping into the canon book history for little particulars and using Sarna's wiki for information would be helpful to gaining specialty items. And I know ultimately the game is a shooter game, but it needs to tap into the lore aspect as you've said.

[Antarius]

The Senor-stuff is great, would make it a whole system of electronic warfare, not some random items with random effects, which is great in TT but not in FPS-like game.

The Gamemode, great, no bad word.

The rare salvage... great idea, but hard to balance, especally with PGI throuing out content before thinking how it effect the game. Would give the game a bit more depth and everytime you got a rare-equipment you start trying new builds again.

[Carrioncrows]

Tice Daurus, on 02 February 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

CC, I'm sure that each faction will be able to incorporate that certain faction areas that you are defending will have certain weapons for a cheaper price because they are in that faction area. So if you are guarding that area, and it contains a mech factory on the planet that manufactures certain mechs or weapons, you could get them for cheaper.

But the idea you have does have merit. I just hope the developers see the merit in it as well and can incorporate it into the game. Tapping into the canon book history for little particulars and using Sarna's wiki for information would be helpful to gaining specialty items. And I know ultimately the game is a shooter game, but it needs to tap into the lore aspect as you've said.

Here is hoping.

Robots is the reason I came, lore and rich history is the reason I stay. That and I get to shoot robots. =)

[Antarius]

should be visible again

[Geadron Kane]

With ECM the Light Mech scout got that much more useless.

[Carrioncrows]

Well, I had hoped to sway the way ECM and the whole Electronic Warfare works to apply a system. As i've outlined above.

Depending on how you are set up defines how effective ecm is and things like that, rather than just a a piece of equipment that applies a flat effect.

we shall see.

[Chavette]

Some nice ideas, I like the sidestep and Ivan, but maybe it'd work with double tapping too. Adding a new button prolongs the learning curve.

[Carrioncrows]

Do you think double tapping is over powered or underpowered?

Lets look at it this way.
Double Tap
AC2 - .5 cycle - double tap doesn't apply an effect so it doesn't work.
UAC5 1.1 cycle - Not worth using double tap since you have double fire rate and 1.1 sec cycle.
AC5 - 1.7 cycle - Double tap lowers next shot to 1 sec cycle then jammed for 6.1 secs after fired
AC10 - 2.5 cycle - Double tap lowers next shot to 1 sec cycle then jammed for 10 secs after fired
LB10X - 2.5 cycle - double tap lowers next shot to 1 sec cycle then jammed for 10 secs after fired
AC20 - 4 sec cycle - double tap lowers next shot to 1 sec cycle then jammed for 16 secs after fired
Gauss - 4 sec cycle- double tap lowers next shot to 1 sec cycle then jammed for 16 secs after fired.

So on a Gauss you can fire, then 1 sec later fire again and spend the next 16 secs jammed. Which means you get 2 shots off in the time frame of 17 secs, when you could get 5 shots off in the same amount of time by not using double tap.

It's a nice calculated risk for engaging targets at long range but it's nothing you want to try and use pointblank except in the most desperate situations.

As for new buttons and the learning curve, you can see most of those skills are "AFTER" you earn the extra module slot. This isn't "new player" stuff, this is the end game.

This is, i've bought 3 mechs, i've unlocked the elite proficiency and i've unlocked a mastery on one of those variants and then I can start learning all these other abilities to fine tune the way I play my mech. So hopefully by then a player will have no doubt mastered the basic controls and can handle a bit more complexity.

[Chavette]

Wow thats a nice idea too but I haven't actually got there...

I was talking about your shift+movement key suggestions, I think double tapping D for a sidestep(since mechs don't really strafe) or S for Ivan would be ok too.

[Red squirrel]

Wow - the first time I actually read an OP that long.

Good work Carrioncrows. I like most of what you wrote.
Some advanced modules seem a bit unbalanced but besides that - great work!


Let's hope the devs are willing to give the game some more depth. I fear the problem is that the BT fans might be a minority (outside the forums) and that PGI feels the urge to cater to new players. One hint for that is the default lock arm to torso option they recently announced. Might be helpful for new players... but honestly who on earth would want something like this?

[Carrioncrows]

Glad you liked it. Thought sadly I don't expect a single thing suggested here to ever make it into the game, which kinda makes me wonder why I wrote it in the first place.

Well if for nothing else it is to show the potential the game "Could" of had. *shrug*

Take care.

[Red squirrel]

Carrioncrows, on 06 February 2013 - 06:19 AM, said:

Do you think double tapping is over powered or underpowered?

Lets look at it this way.
Double Tap
AC2 - .5 cycle - double tap doesn't apply an effect so it doesn't work.
UAC5 1.1 cycle - Not worth using double tap since you have double fire rate and 1.1 sec cycle.
AC5 - 1.7 cycle - Double tap lowers next shot to 1 sec cycle then jammed for 6.1 secs after fired
AC10 - 2.5 cycle - Double tap lowers next shot to 1 sec cycle then jammed for 10 secs after fired
LB10X - 2.5 cycle - double tap lowers next shot to 1 sec cycle then jammed for 10 secs after fired
AC20 - 4 sec cycle - double tap lowers next shot to 1 sec cycle then jammed for 16 secs after fired
Gauss - 4 sec cycle- double tap lowers next shot to 1 sec cycle then jammed for 16 secs after fired.

So on a Gauss you can fire, then 1 sec later fire again and spend the next 16 secs jammed. Which means you get 2 shots off in the time frame of 17 secs, when you could get 5 shots off in the same amount of time by not using double tap.

It's a nice calculated risk for engaging targets at long range but it's nothing you want to try and use pointblank except in the most desperate situations.

As for new buttons and the learning curve, you can see most of those skills are "AFTER" you earn the extra module slot. This isn't "new player" stuff, this is the end game.

This is, i've bought 3 mechs, i've unlocked the elite proficiency and i've unlocked a mastery on one of those variants and then I can start learning all these other abilities to fine tune the way I play my mech. So hopefully by then a player will have no doubt mastered the basic controls and can handle a bit more complexity.

I really dont want to meet a dual AC20 CAT with double tap.
It would core my flawless Hunchback in 2 seconds. (48 armor + 32 internals)
Even my Awesome shivers in fear with 75 armor + 50 internals (125).
(even worse for the stock Awesome with 60 armor + 50 internals)

Carrioncrows, on 10 March 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

Glad you liked it. Thought sadly I don't expect a single thing suggested here to ever make it into the game, which kinda makes me wonder why I wrote it in the first place.

Well if for nothing else it is to show the potential the game "Could" of had. *shrug*

Take care.

I guess we hang around these forums because "They aint making games like this anymore...".
Even if PGIs ears a deaf - thanks for sharing your ideas.