85 replies to this topic

[Serapth]

This isn't a whine thread, just curious what other peoples opinions are. I started with the founders hunchback, and it's the first series of mechs that I elited. After that I move over to Catapults, then various assault and light mechs, never really coming back to the 50-60 ton weight category, except when needing cash grinding with my founders mech. I enjoy playing the Hunchback, but know its a bit of an underdog on the field, not lag shielded like the lights, and pure fodder for the Atlases. Given the Hunch, in all builds but one you cant really run an XL engine, so it certainly isn't a quick mech.


Then about a week ago I started the Dragon line and immediately it felt a lot like riding around in my Hunchback, just... better. In every metric I could measure... faster, more armor, weapons in the arms, more flexible, more weapons. The only major downside I could see is the large center torso, but truth is, with the way MWO has been implemented, that is can actually be an advantage.

I found I could replicate basically every single build I like with my Hunchbacks ( with one exception made later ), just generally with more weapons, armor and faster on the dragon line. For example, my XL engine sniper build on the hunch was 1xGauss, 1xLL, 1xMPL, top speed around 80. The same build on the Dragon... 1xGauss, 2xLL, 2xML, 1ton more ammo and 18kph faster. I had similar experiences remaking the traditional Hunchback build ( 1 AC/20 2ML I believe ). Dragon can make the same build, be faster, mount more weapons and armour.

So far, their are only two areas I've found where the Hunchback can be superior. First is the 4P ( the non-Hunchback Hunchback ) can boat lasers. No chassis of Dragon can mount more than 3 ( possibly 4 ). The 4SP can mount more missiles ( 2xSRM6s, vs 1xSRM6s max on a dragon ) and finally, the head mounted energy slot means a hunchback can stay in the game in a pretty zombie state, although with torso mounted weapon points, the Dragon can perform an incredibly similar feat if not running an XL engine. ( Then again, everyone is running an XL engine ).


Am I overlooking some strength of the Hunchback, or downside to the Dragon, or is the Dragon just generally a superior mech?


Pure opinion/discussion thread BTW... I am not looking to have anything changed. I realize in Battletech, some mechs biggest advantages are they are light and cheap to make or dont rely on supply lines, etc... Without resupply, tonnage limits and the economy being the way it is, none of those are really factors in MWO. One final factor, a purely personal one, I think I find the Dragon (Flame specifically) to be my favourite ride as of now... although the Archer may bump it.

Edited by Serapth, 08 January 2013 - 08:00 AM.

[Glythe]

The dragon is a heavy and the hunchback is a medium. That is a big step up in weight difference.....

That being said unless the HB is really quick it usually ends up toast. The same is true for a dragon but it goes faster and has more punch and armor isn't so fragile (especially in the right shoulder).

[jshill78]

Do you realize that your post is really saying that your Dragons are only better than the WORST Hunchback?

If you aren't comparing the 4P or the 4SP, then you aren't comparing the Hunchback. Those are the two most game viable chasis options.

[Ghogiel]

No.

[pcunite]

There is the fun factor. I like the Hunchback better because it has a better cockpit view in my opinion. The all leather interior is icing on the cake. When working with a team two Hunchbacks can tear an Atlas to shreds.

[MrPenguin]

Not trying to insult you OP, its cool that you found a mech you really enjoy.

But what?

Edited by MrPenguin, 08 January 2013 - 08:08 AM.

[Serapth]

jshill78, on 08 January 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

Do you realize that your post is really saying that your Dragons are only better than the WORST Hunchback?

If you aren't comparing the 4P or the 4SP, then you aren't comparing the Hunchback. Those are the two most game viable chasis options.

I didn't say one was worse than the other in that regard, I simply said the Dragon cant completely emulate the builds you can make with the 4P and 4SP. With the other two Hunch models, I was saying the Dragon can create literally the exact same build... plus plus plus. So when doing apples to apples comparisons, the Dragon spanks the Hunch. With the 4P and 4SP, it is no longer apples to apples.

[CDLord HHGD]

Nope, my 4G eats Dragons for lunch. There was a time when I would actively hunt any opposing Dragon down, but then their knockdown advantage was removed and ECM came out. I was going for the title of Dragon Slayer, but that's on hold.

[Wormrex]

You kind of forgot to factor in turning speed. A hunchie has a sharper turn that a dragon. You mention the engine as well, a XL simply makes it so much easier to get killed.

The weight class is also another thing. Bring a dragon and your opponent gets a chance to bring a kitty or dakkah cata.

Oh and everyone and their pet hamster is a dragon hunter for some odd reason, I blame it on that big neon green Target circle drawn on the CT, each time I even touch those pesky LRM boats behind the whole team comes swarming back after me X.X

[Ghogiel]

Serapth, on 08 January 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

I didn't say one was worse than the other in that regard, I simply said the Dragon cant completely emulate the builds you can make with the 4P and 4SP. With the other two Hunch models, I was saying the Dragon can create literally the exact same build... plus plus plus. So when doing apples to apples comparisons, the Dragon spanks the Hunch. With the 4P and 4SP, it is no longer apples to apples.

So all the dragons are better than the **** hunchies? Ok I'll go with that.

[ICEFANG13]

Its more likely that Dragons suit you better than Hunchbacks. You also cannot just make a clear cut assumption on two mechs of different weight. In fact, hunches can kill Dragons pretty easily. Sure, overall a Dragon may be better than a hunch, especially for you, but how does it compare against Cataphracts and Catapults?

[Denno]

Until bv or drop weight limit matching arrives a lot of folks reason there's no reason to take a med over a heavy.

Why bring a Hunch when you can bring a Cat or Dragon, both probably faster and more versatile? Hell, or a moderately fast Phract for that matter, or even a lolAwesome.

[jshill78]

Seriously... I was just doing some Mechlabs on the Dragon. The only thing you can do with it is beat out the HBK-4G builds. It's worse than all other Hunchbacks.

You need a 310 engine to get similar speed (.6 kph slower in the dragon) as a 260 engine in a Hunchback. That means you're losing 8 tons to engine in a mech that is 10 tons heavier. The inference on that is the fact that you only gain 2 tons for weapons over what is available on the Hunchback. What can you do with 2 tons? Optimally, 2 Medium lasers gives you the most firepower for 2 tons. If you look at the hard points though, you can't make a build that is the HBK-4G with 2 more medium lasers. It's too heavy without going to the XL engine. Then again, it requires a hero mech to do this.

I read all those points as follows: You need to buy a Hero mech in the Dragon chasis to duplicate the WORST Hunchback variant.

Edited by jshill78, 08 January 2013 - 08:21 AM.

[Ghogiel]

Denno, on 08 January 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

Until bv or drop weight limit matching arrives

correct me if I am wrong, but in all but 8v8, there is a drop weight matching. like you take a dragon, then the MM will try to put a cplt or cata on the other team to even it out.

I know it doesn't work all that great from my experience. But it's supposed to iirc

[Serapth]

ICEFANG13, on 08 January 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

Its more likely that Dragons suit you better than Hunchbacks. You also cannot just make a clear cut assumption on two mechs of different weight. In fact, hunches can kill Dragons pretty easily. Sure, overall a Dragon may be better than a hunch, especially for you, but how does it compare against Cataphracts and Catapults?

Well, that's a completely different thread. As a complete series, IMHO the Catapult is the worst balanced mech in the game ( at least pre ECM ). LRMboat, SRM6boat, 2xAC20 cat, streakcat, etc... pre-ECM, if it was cheese, it was on a Cat. It's just so damned exploitable, especially with the existence of the K2 series. I am not sure where I would honestly rate the Catapracht... it's been a bit since I elited it, but my memory was some chassis were horrible, while one was very good, then apparently ( I dont own it ), but the hero mech is bordering on pay2win... or so some people say. So in the case of the catapracht, it really depends which model you are talking about.

Ghogiel, on 08 January 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

correct me if I am wrong, but in all but 8v8, there is a drop weight matching. like you take a dragon, then the MM will try to put a cplt or cata on the other team to even it out.

I know it doesn't work all that great from my experience. But it's supposed to iirc

I have heard this many times, but I think it's bunk. Ive seen far too many matches where a group of mediums end up facing 4xAtlases. I think ( with no evidence to back it up ), when you get a 4man premade dropping a match, the matchmaker just cant cope with them potentially bringing in 4 assaults.

[Taizan]

Denno, on 08 January 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

Why bring a Hunch when you can bring a Cat or Dragon, both probably faster and more versatile? Hell, or a moderately fast Phract for that matter, or even a lolAwesome.

Because a Hunchback is better than a Cat. Phract or Dragon. Just to counter the OPs opnion :-)

[IceSerpent]

Serapth, on 08 January 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

I enjoy playing the Hunchback, but know its a bit of an underdog on the field, not lag shielded like the lights, and pure fodder for the Atlases.

If you can't solo an Atlas in a Hunchie, you are doing something very wrong.

Quote

Given the Hunch, in all builds but one you cant really run an XL engine, so it certainly isn't a quick mech.

All good HBK builds have 250-260 engine and have top speed around 90kph.

Quote

Then about a week ago I started the Dragon line and immediately it felt a lot like riding around in my Hunchback, just... better. In every metric I could measure... faster, more armor, weapons in the arms, more flexible, more weapons.

Ballistic weapons in the arms = serious problems with convergence, plus HBK has variants with better hardpoints IMHO.

Quote

So far, their are only two areas I've found where the Hunchback can be superior. First is the 4P ( the non-Hunchback Hunchback ) can boat lasers. No chassis of Dragon can mount more than 3 ( possibly 4 ). The 4SP can mount more missiles ( 2xSRM6s, vs 1xSRM6s max on a dragon )

Now you are getting it...

Quote

and finally, the head mounted energy slot means a hunchback can stay in the game in a pretty zombie state, although with torso mounted weapon points, the Dragon can perform an incredibly similar feat if not running an XL engine. ( Then again, everyone is running an XL engine ).

HBK is much better off with a standard engine.

Quote

Am I overlooking some strength of the Hunchback, or downside to the Dragon, or is the Dragon just generally a superior mech?

HBK 4P and 4SP are much better brawlers than any Dragon variant. Ballistic HBK variants are IMHO about as good as Dragons ("you gain some, you lose some" kind of a deal).

[The Mecha Streisand]

Dragons feel a bit quicker and slightly more survivable to me.

Hunchbacks feel a bit more powerful to me.

It's a play style thing. The extra ten tons of a Dragon loses me the FEELING of firepower, but gains me the FEELING of being in the game's fastest mech of 50 tons or more, and the FEELING that I can take a single small laser hit in the right torso without becoming useless. The Dragon feels light on punch, and the Hunchback feels glass-jawed. As for weight class, I think it's an arbitrary consideration.

[Ghogiel]

Serapth, on 08 January 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

I have heard this many times, but I think it's bunk. Ive seen far too many matches where a group of mediums end up facing 4xAtlases. I think ( with no evidence to back it up ), when you get a 4man premade dropping a match, the matchmaker just cant cope with them potentially bringing in 4 assaults.

Well I know that the devs have stated there is 'class matching rules' in the match maker. I can't be bothered to find the quote where it is actually described properly, but I can point you here http://mwomercs.com/...79-matchmaking/
where it is refereed to.

but yeah it definitely doesn't work that great.

edit, actually in that link the second post does lay it out actually..

Edited by Ghogiel, 08 January 2013 - 08:29 AM.

[CDLord HHGD]

IceSerpent, on 08 January 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

If you can't solo an Atlas in a Hunchie, you are doing something very wrong.



All good HBK builds have 250-260 engine and have top speed around 90kph.



Ballistic weapons in the arms = serious problems with convergence, plus HBK has variants with better hardpoints IMHO.



Now you are getting it...



HBK is much better off with a standard engine.



HBK 4P and 4SP are much better brawlers than any Dragon variant. Ballistic HBK variants are IMHO about as good as Dragons ("you gain some, you lose some" kind of a deal).

My 4G does just fine. Kills plenty of Dragons. Nothing equalizes like an AC/20.