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Balance & Gameplay Feedback

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#21 Grouch

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 09:06 AM

View PostCmndoBrndo, on 08 January 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

I think the Jenner JR7-D should receive ECM as originally planned. If the Raven can equip ECM and streaks, so should the Jenner. The Jenner has been utterly neutered.


This.

Also it is clear that netcode/no collision/light lagshield is the most important balance issue right now.

Edited by Grouch, 10 January 2013 - 09:08 AM.


#22 Landeraxe

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 10:17 AM

View PostAidan Pendragon, on 08 January 2013 - 07:54 PM, said:

I had written up some thoughts and was looking for an appropriate spot to post them; this looks as good as any...

An Open Letter to Piranha Games

Dear Piranha Games folks,

I'm very impressed with Mechwarrior Online, both as a longtime Battletech fan and as a player of the past PC games. Extra kudos to you for making it effectively free to play. However, a couple issues have the game balance out of whack--compared to others of the genre--and are barriers to me, and I suspect others, wanting to invest real money in it. Because you're still in beta phase, I offer these suggestions in the hopes of making a good thing better.

#1. What happened to my sensors?: This is the first 'Mech-type game I've played--and I've played a lot--where you can't get any reliable radar or minimap fix on your opponents, even at the shortest ranges. Once you do, this flimsy contact is lost once they step behind a rock or building. This reduces a lot of matches to what I saw one teammate refer to as "Giant Stealth Ninja Robots" instead of tactical 'Mech action; namely, who can sneak up behind opponents and back-shoot them while their radar shows nothing? That's fine for a FPS, but silly for this setting; 'Mechs have radar, cameras, and seismic sensors and should be able to detect anything up close and many things that aren't.

Solutions: Make it easier to show and track enemies, at least up close. If a 'Mech steps directly behind you--or anywhere within say a 200m radius--it should show up right away. Make this a feature of the Beagle Probe, if nothing else.

#2. ECM and the ghost 'Mechs: I was recently rereading a classic Battletech novel where a character developed the mystical ability to avoid any computer weapon locks on him. This was confined to a handful of people and apparently written out of the canon later, but in MWO it's alive, well, and widespread thanks to ECM. I can be staring at an enemy but unable to get any kind of lock or even bracket/target data; meanwhile he's under no such compunction and usually blasting me (often with LRMs, see #3).

Solution: Classic Battletech rules had ECM jamming Beagle probes, Artemis, and Narc Beacons, and nothing else. It should do the same here, not prevent any kind of lock. I could live with it also slowing but not stopping missile locks. If anything, ECM should be a rough beacon for sensors, because it's basically a high-powered radio emitter.

#3. LRMs or ICBMs?: I regularly find myself being shredded alive while under a missile lock by people unseen halfway across the map (who half the time have ECM so I can't return fire; see #2). The main problem is that missile damage is too high: damage charts say an LRM-20 does about 3 times the damage of a PPC. It should be more like 2 times as per the balance worked out in classic rules. A second problem is that LRMs home far more than they should, making evasion difficult. These are supposed to be dumb-fire weapons. A third problem is that the blast/shake effects on the cockpit are too severe: one LRM-20 flight, let alone two, will severely throw off your aim and darken your vision, making it that much harder to defend yourself.

Solutions: LRM damage needs to be lowered proportionally to match other weapons at a similar ratio as in classic Battletech. Non-Artemis or Narc LRMs need to have much less homing ability; their speed to target should be increased to compensate, and they should fly to where the target is expected to be when they arrive (and have a higher chance of missing if it isn't). And blast/shake effects need to be toned down.

#4. Light 'Mechs are not fragile enough: I imagine the near-doubling of armor ratings compared to classic rules was to make games longer and more enjoyable. With light 'Mechs, though, it's taking things too far because of their speed. A Raven now has about half the armor of an Awesome or Stalker but can literally run rings around it and kill it fairly easily with back shots. By contrast, I can paint it repeatedly with multiple large lasers--when I can hit it--and not kill it. One light 'Mech, let alone two or three, are a match for any assault, which flies in the face of Battletech's rules and spirit.

Solution: Armor values for light 'Mechs need to be reduced, even halved. One or two PPC/large laser blasts needs to start doing internal damage. Lights should be for recon, not Atlas-killers, and live or die by their speed alone. They need to fear assaults, not the other way around.

Thanks for the consideration, and for making a fun game.

These are all awesome points! I strongly agree with everything mentioned here, and hope that it is listened to and implemented.

Let me add one of my own.

#5. Repair rearm. It doesn't feel like Mechwarrior/Battletech without it. Being a mercenary mecwarrior (whether you work for a house or a merc-corp, and especially as a lone-wolf) IS A BUSINESS. That means making economical choices as well as tactical ones.

Solution: Re-add repair rearm, with no 75% usage free ammo, and paying full price for destroyed components (and a realistic % of damaged ones). Pilots who are not as good wil migrate towards the lighter mechs, or use the free mechs. Less assaults on the battlefield is a good thing, as someone who owns and pilots their own atlas will have deserved it; and we'll see more light/medium mechs on the battlefield.

Please let me add that as a founder, I have also purchased several founder memberships for friends because I loved the faithfulness of what I saw when this was first coming out. Maybe it's the extended beta with no community warfare that is sapping my interest in the game, but I have to say that seeing PGI seemingly pander to the cries of casual gamers who'll be playing something else in a few months, and disregarding the hopes of loyal, dedicated Battletech fans who've invested in this franchise and want a more simulation feel, has not helped to keep me playing. The hardcore fans are your real player base, and will be playing this game for years to come IF they are being given what they feel is right. Battletech is a niche market with die-hard fans, but they'll turn away if they are disregarded.

Please, take us into consideration. You have done such wonderous things with the title to this point. Stay the path!

Thanks!

#23 ExAstris

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 11:02 AM

I am posting with the philosophy that every weapon should be competative, regardless of its lore or comparative capabilities in previous incarnations of mechwarrior/TT. If the weapon is in this game, my suggestions are pointed at bringing it up to a level that will validate its use on the field given its canonical critical and tonnage mounting requirements, while simultaneously adhering to MWO's current hardpoint restrictions and ammunition counts.

Some of my suggestions would lead to weapons becoming wildly overpowered in other games/incarnations, but due to relevant constraints in MWO, such as hardpoint limitations, or the low dissipation rate, I am quite sure they will lead to no serious imbalances in this game.

I will identify each weapon that needs an increase in performance to be competative, provide a suggestion as to how to improve its handling, as well as a brief argument for why this is the best way to increase its performance and why the change I suggest will not lead to other imbalances.



Machine Guns:
This weapon needs to do at least triple its current damage to be viable, and probably quadruple to be competative.

Why this is the best change: Making this weapon better against internals is a fun idea, but is useless in MWO. Hardpoints are too precious to waste on weapons that are only good at the last 1/5 of a fight, and at that aren't even good at finishing, only wrecking the internal parts/weapons instead of outright destroying the section like any normal weapon would do.

Why its not overpowered: Lets assume we triple the damage, that will put its dps at 1.2, which is 0.2 higher than the small laser. Yes, the MG generates no heat, but it has a range of 90m, meaning it has to be used at the same range as small lasers, it needs ammo which actually runs out pretty fast when you're using several of these together, and (most importantly) no mech can currently mount more than 4. This puts the absolute dps cap on MGs at 4.8, which is still below the AC20, and only a smidge above the rest of the ballistics category. However, the handling is also extremely important, MGs have travel time, spread, and must be held on target constantly in order to achieve this dps, which makes it very difficult to apply, while other weapons have the incredible benefit of lining up single shots to apply their damage to single locations.

Comparatively, a light mech with 6 small lasers has little trouble with heat, 6dps, and the benefit of only needing to aim at the right spot once every few seconds instead of constantly. Thus, unless we get mechs with 8+ ballistic hardpoints, tripling the dps of machine guns will not lead to any balance problems.



Flame Throwers:
Change mechanics from heat application, to reduction in heat dissipation. Change from continuous application to intermitent.

Flame Throwers will never be useful when they apply less heat to their target than they give to the user, you'll waste your own slots mounting them and your own heat firing them, that could've been used for anything else. Instead, cause mechs hit with flamers to suffer reductions to their heat dissipation capacity over a period of time. The reduction would be proportionate to the number of flamers you were hit with during that time, but it can't be directly proportionate. It can't be directly, linearly proportionate because one flamer has to do a useful amount of reduction, but it can't be the case that multiple flamers totally negate a mech's heat dissipation capacity.

The change from continuous to intermitent also helps solve some other issues with flamers (such as their visual annoyance), and allows the implimentation of sweet special effects, such as the glow from lasers being applied to flamers but with some fire eminating from the struck location as well.

The fundamental gameplay benefit, currently, flamers are no good because you generate more heat than you give, and you can't program flamers to allow them to force shutdown on enemy mechs because then you get flamer hoardes that overheat and overload people without any way to respond or avoid them. The reduction of dissipation mechanic allows you to make flamers a penalty to the user in the early part of a fight, but be a long-term benefit by reducing their opponents ability to dissipate heat. The numbers of course would be balanced around this, but the idea is that if you doing fast striker runs, flamers would be useless to you, but if you're going toe-to-toe with someone for the full duration of time it takes to down a mech at point blank range, then flamers would be a seroius benefit to you because you'll be able to fire alot more than your opponent once you get half way into the battle because he's having more heat trouble than you are.

This also shouldn't become overpowered so long as the benefits are to only to longer engagements, well coordinated teams focusing fire will never reach the useful engagement time for the flamer's reduction effects to kick in (unless they shoot side targets, which actual encourages more strategy for firing at 'off' targets). Furthermore, the change in their firing behavior to intermitent sprays means the flamer visual won't be obscuring the battlefield for teams that build to use it properly, and it could also be changed to a discharged gel with travel time instead of a magic hitscan weapon as it is now.

Finally, the amount of heat reduction can be balanced to make it only useful on the right mechs at the right times, and no mech will ever be completely taken off the battlefield due to being hit with flamers, only slowed down. Thus, preventing them from becoming overpowered.


NARC:
Let it broadcast on its own without LOS, let it give LRMs a different bonus than TAG/Artemis, or let it counter ECM. Probably buff the time it lasts.

Currently, you have to maintain LOS to use NARC, just as you do TAG/Artemis. If you use TAG/Artemis, you already have a clustering bonus that puts almost every missile into contact with slow mechs. You can't hit slow/assault mechs with more than all the missiles, and you can't hit light mechs with tighter clustering because their speed is making the missiles miss. So more clustering than the TAG/Artemis combo is nearly useless, and TAG is superior in every way. NARC must give a benifit different from TAG if it is to be worth taking onto the battlefield.

Here there are alot of options, any of the 3 above would be fantastic ways to make NARC useful, especially if it came with a 30 second timer instead of the measly 10s timer it had at inception.

If we do the first, let it broadcast position without LOS, it becomes a fantastic scout tool for keeping tabs on enemies and seting up LRM boats without having to stay in the danger zone. LRMs still have hardcounters of terrain, AMS, and ECM, and they would still be only as dangerous as they were before, this just gives our scout the opportunity to bug out so long as he makes a good shot. Definitely not overpowered, and extremely useful for scouting and teamwork.

If we do the second, give LRMs a different bonus than TAG/Artemis, such as turn-speed, or final approach velocity, then we have another reason to use NARC over the T/A combo, because now those LRMs are going to be doing more damage against faster mechs that are mitigating volleys in virtue of their speed. This option as the most potential for becoming overpowered, but again, this will only buff NARC against the fast targets which are already the hardest ones to hit, and have the most opportunity to return to cover against LRMs. So piloting skill makes and breaks this weapon, not broken mechanics.

If we do the third, let it broadcast over ECM, we have a major game-changer. I do not want to diverge into the ECM debate too much here, but this would certainly given NARC a role as it would be the only way to ping targets consistently when they are under cover. It would be a heavier, riskier, and more skill intensive way to paint than TAG, but it would have the benefit of working under the 180m cloaking field and being the only non-ECM hard counter to ECM, which would instantly secure its viability on the field.

And lastly, given the limited ammo/ton, the effects of each shot have to last a fair amount of time. 10 seconds isn't enough time to for anyone to respond and take advantage of its effects. Especially LRMs, which take a few seconds to target, a few seconds to lock, and another half-dozen for their LRMs to traverse the field. My thought is 30s is about right, but of course this can be throttled for balance.



The rest of my suggestions will be for weapons that are underperforming, but to a less extent than the three before. It still seems apparent to me that these weapons need buffs to be worth mounting, but the buffs will tend to be less extreme, and are sometimes meant to give the weapon a better defined role isntead of outright making it better.


SRM 2 & 4:
Better rate of fire.

The SRM6 is amazing, one of the best weapons in the game. But the burst damage it provides at close range is its strength. The SRM2 and SRM4 do not have the advantage of hitting so hard in such a short time, yet they are also eclipsed in dps due to having long cycle times themselves. Now, they should definitely not out-dps the SRM6 because they cost less to mount, both in terms of crits and tons, but they are currently so far outclassed that not even the light mechs that could take them ever do over the SSRM2 or SRM6.

Reduce the cycle time of the SRM4 to 3 seconds (from 3.75) and the cycle time of the SRM2 to 2 seconds (from 3.25). Now all the SRMs have the same damage:heat ratios, but the lighter launchers sacrifice alpha strike for better dps:crit and dps:ton ratios.

The end result is that the SRM2 will have 2/3 the dps of the SRM6, be twice as hard to apply due to needing to line up two shots, but will require half the crits and 1/3 the tonnage.

Why its not overpowered: If we could mount unlimited weapons, this would make SRM2s crazy awesome, but again, with no mech able to exceed 6 missile hardpoints, and those that actually use them all on SRMs going with SRM6s for the increased dps (and far more importantly, the burst damage), no build will become overpowered with this change, we will just see some lights and mediums actually opting for the SRM2 and 4 over the SSRM2 and SRM6 due to superior dps against larger targets compared to the SSRM2 (at the cost of manual aiming), and crit/weight savings over the SRM6.

Fluff justification for the SRM2 having a much faster reload than the SSRM2, the SSRM launchers have to feed the target lock to each missile after its loaded into the launch tube, making all SSRM launchers take longer to be ready to fire. (This is also a good excuse to use when the inevitable SSRM4&6 show up)



Small Pulse Laser:
Reduce cooldown to 2s (from 2.25) and heat to 2.5 (from 3).

Why this is the best change: We can't make this weapon flat out better than the medium laser because then every light would have it, and the medium laser is the staple energy weapon we like to balance our energy selection around. So this change doesn't let the small pulse laser beat the medium laser at anything. It brings its dps and heat efficiency up to 96% as good as the medium laser, but still suffers from only having a 90m range (1/3 the mlas). The reason this is needed is because the mlas currently outperforms the small pulse laser in dps and heat efficiency by such a huge margin that the beam duration benefit of the small pulse laser is never worth while. Currently the mlas has 18% better dps and 25% better heat efficiency, meaning any lost dps due to needing to stay on target an extra 1/2 second is almost always made up for with better total damage on good shots, and being able to shoot far more often with the vastly better heat efficiency. Sliding those efficiencies up for the small pulse laser makes it a much more viable choice as the sacrifice in dps and heat efficiency will not be nearly as harsh for the relatively small benefit in firing duration.

Why its not overpowered: The mlas will still give better dps, heat efficiency, and range. Only people expecting to shoot at lights at point blank range will seriously consider the small pulse laser over the nearly omnipresent -and still more versatile- medium laser.



ER Large Laser & ER PPC:
Reduce heat (already planned)

Yes, these weapons should be less heat efficient than their non ER counterparts. But the disparity is too high, especially with MWO being very brawl-centric, with engagement ranges rarely staying beyond 500m for more than a single shot.

However, the ERPPC will not have to be reduced as much to be useful because it has no minimum range. So just a point for the ERPPC should work, while the ERLL might have to go down a point and a half to be competative (8.5 heat to the non-ER LL at 7).

Why its not overpowered: Again, engagement ranges rarely stay beyond 500m, so mounting for that range is hard to justify when you spend 95% of your time inside 300m where heat efficiency is key.


LRM 5 & 10:
Reduce cycle times.

Similar reasoning to the SRMs, but compounded for LRMs due to AMS and damage spread. No one uses these because LRMs are nice to boat, and we have limited hardpoints that can best be served with lighter SRMs and SSRMs. For mechs that mount just one LRM as a support option instead of boating it, the lighter models of LRMs have to be appealing, and the easiest way to do that is to increase their rof. I would suggest 3.25 seconds for the LRM10 (from 3.75), and 2.5 seconds for the LRM5 (from 3.25).

This would increase their maximum dps, but still leave it behind the LRM15 and 20. They would remain less heat efficient as well, and would actually require more heat sinks to cool due to their better rate of fire. But the dps increase will make them more viable as support weapons being used solo or in pairs, instead of the current situation where mechs go all LRM 15 or 20 or none.

Why its not overpowered: Boats would still be far more head and dps efficient to use 4 15s or 20s instead of 6 5s, so we're not affecting the boating scene at all. All we're doing is allowing mechs who want to have just one or two small launchers for support while they run to their optimal engagement range to be a smidge more effective than they currently are. Currently the LRM 5 and 10 are extinct, giving them just a bit of a niche to fill might put them on the field from time to time. Finally, even though this suggestion would make it vaible for some mechs to mount a pair of LRM 5s and have as much dps as a single LRM20, it would be spread out by so much that anyone mounting AMS would be able to chew up all of their smaller packets of missiles instead of the larger single volley from larger launchers and full boats.

Edited by ExAstris, 10 January 2013 - 11:26 AM.


#24 Bobzilla

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 11:58 AM

I can hit most light mechs easy. A few are really hard to hit tho. I'm guessing its the netcode/lagshield as i usually have very low pings and when i use a light i usually can get hit easy and if i want to live i can't circle mechs, i have to do the hit and run tactic.

#25 Codejack

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 01:08 PM

ECM is ridiculously out of proportion. I would recommend one of the following 3 scenarios to fix it:

1) ECM should reduce detection range to 400m (600m against BAP), increase lock-on time by 100%, and counter NARC, BAP and Artemis inside the bubble. Nothing else.

2) ECM should have all of its current effects, but BAP should increase detection range, NARC should allow lock-on inside the bubble, and TAG should work inside the bubble, but only for the mech carrying it.

3) ECM, BAP, NARC, etc should all remain the same, but ECM should have catastrophic side effects: It should disrupt friendly lock-ons inside the bubble, and when the section carrying it is hit by a PPC, even if it doesn't penetrate the armor, it should explode for Gauss-rifle-like damage.

#26 Hamzey

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 12:04 AM

View PostArchwright, on 10 January 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:


I don't see why a nerf to SSRMs should effect normal SRMs. At the very least, SSRMs should have the same absurd flight path as the normal SRMs. If they are still going to fly arrow-straight, then we need to make streaks do less damage, like 1.5 that of LRMs as opposed to twice that of LRMs.


It's also absurd that my MLAS cycles as slowly as my Gauss Rifle. 1 sec beam + 3 sec cooldown = 4 second cooldown. At least from where I'm standing.

At 6 tons and 1 heat, AC2s are still a joke. I'd rather they did 0.5 heat or something. Right now the SSRM far out damages it.




Did you just say srm's should be = to Lrms? no. they shouldn't, SRMS & LRMS are fine, the SSRM's can own with a team 1v1 not op, when verry fat and can ping SSRMS fast, kind of

#27 LadyBrecky

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 04:25 AM

View PostArmageddonKnight, on 08 January 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

Restrict Light mechs to 2 a team.


Stopped taking you serious right there.

#28 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 04:47 AM

Well, since this thread can basically only be a recap of previous threads... Why not do it again.

The balance in Mechwarrior Online is of great interest to me. Mechwarrior Online is a PvP game, which means that people will gravitate towards powerful builds and optimizing their weapon loadout, and then mess their skill in not just building these loadouts, but also using these loadouts the most effective way to beat their opponents.
Balance in such games is important to me, since without balance, the underpowered choices will be dropped and ignored by most players, as there are better options for the role these choices tend to fill.

So I once again made calculations and charts to assess the weapon balance. I focus on Double Heat Sinks here. Even if the current implementation of Double Heat Sinks may not be what everyone was hoping for - they are still generally better than single heat sinks, and if only because you have your engine heat sinks.

TL;DR Call to Action - Where do we need to improve things? (Assuming we do not want further changes to the heat sink mechanics)
1) Small Lasers and Medium Lasers may be too efficient, and could use a small reduction in power (quite possibly by equally reducing damage and heat).
2) At least Small and Large Pulse Lasers could use a buff, the Large Pulse Laser needing a bigger buff.
3) The AC/10 could use a small buff.
4) The PPC and ER PPC need notable buffs.
5) The Ultra AC/5 Jamming mechanic needs to be analyzed in detail - it is possible that it is currently making the weapon weaker then its theoretical potential when fired without the double shot mode, which is counter-intuitive..
6) The AC/2 could use a nerf - potentially a mixed nerf/buff - a lower rate of fire, but more ammo per ton?
7) SRM and LRM effectiveness need to be evaluated - currently they seem overly efficient, but this is based on ignoring their special missile grouping mechanics.

As a general caveat - it is difficult to consider all weapon balancing factors. Projectile Speed, ballistic drop, clustering, beam durations. All these are factors. That's why it is important to look closely into the charts and interpret values. Generally speaking - the better one of these factors is for a weapon, the higher its actual effectiveness may be - so for example, by range, we would consider the efficiency of weapons to drop off - by how much or by what formula (if it it's not a straight downwards line) is open to debate. But we can still find grave inconsistencies.

The Long Part

Methodology
The charts below are assembled based on the known weapon properties like rate of fire, damage per shot, ammo requirements, ammo per ton and so on. The underlying spreadsheet was made in Excel, but has been exported to GoogleDocs and can be viewed online. (To edit it and put in your own figures, you can download it or export it as your own document.)

Spoiler




The Charts and the Observations
I provide charts for the damage efficiency first. The efficiency value is a bit abstract, however - so there are additional charts that simply describe the weight in tons that would be required for this weapon. This should give you an idea how much tonnage you need to actually invest to make your mech work well.

High Damage (Suitable for Heavy to Assault Mech Chassis)
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As a general note - we tend to see a somewhat downwards sloping efficiency with range, though it is only a weak trend. That is something we want to see, as longer range is an advantage that my efficiency calculation itself doesn't track, so instead it must be represented by a low efficiency value in the chart. The exact angle of the slope that we'd need is something that would still need some analysis (If I had an answer for that already, I would have worked range in the efficiency calculation itself, and the efficiency curve should be parallel to the x-axis.)

Notable here is how bad Flamer, Machine Gun and the ER PPC is. THe PPC, ER Large Laser, Large Pulse Laser and Small Pulse Laser also stick out as weak weapons.

The Medium Pulse Laser should be better than the Medium Laser, since it has an even shorter range, but here the question may be - is it perhaps the Medium Laser that needs a nerf? The Laser generates a lot of heat per point of damage, but it also deals a lot of damage per ton. IT may be wise to adjust his damage (and heat) down, to justify his low weight.

The Small Laser looks extreme efficient. It may be questionable whether this is ever aconcern - in the end, even the most extreme laser boats from canon don't seem to carry much more than 12 lasers (The Nova), so we may never have to fear a small laser boat.

The AC/10 is weaker than the Large Laser in shorter engagements - this may warrant a buff for the AC/10, since it seems to be its ballistic brother.

The Ultra Auto-Cannon numbers are weird. I put in the weapon twice, once trying to use its single shot mode and fire rate, and once trying to use its double shot mode, which also brings with itself jamming. THere is some margin for error in this, since the jamming mechanics are not well documented and analyzed yet - but it seems all wrong to me. Assuming the weapon could be fired without jamming in single shot mode (it cannot), shouldn't it fire just as fast as the regular AC/5 and thus be a little less efficient than the AC/5 (since its heavier?), and shouldn it not gain in the double shot mode?

The Gauss Rifle doesn't seem as great as it sometimes perceived. I believe a big factor in the favoritism of the Gauss Rifle was that there was only one mech that could field 2 of the larger ballistic weapons - the Catapult K2. And the Gauss Rifle still has the highest DPS of all available mechs, and the highest alpha strike damage, and still allow an XL Engine. The AC/20 high crit slot requirements make it less attractive for these purposes, and it's low range doesn't help it either. With the Cataphract we now have a mech that can field other ballistic weapon combinations, for example Quad AC/5 - this opens up new opportunities, and at least allows to surpass the Dual Gauss Rifle's damage output (even if not its alpha strike capability.)

The missiles seem to operate in an entirely different playing field. Is this warranted? Maybe, they tend to spread their damage, and some of them have unique locking mechanics. Still, it seems a bit off, and one wonders if adjustments aren't necessary.


Low Damage (Suitable for Low to Medium Mech Chassis)
Posted Image
The Medium Laser and SMall Laser once again stick out among the ballistic and energy weapons as extremely efficient. Very few weapons can compete here, and it overall seems as if as a light or medium mech, medium or smalls should make out the most out of your weapon arsenal. It may be noticeable here that the Medium Laser has the same efficiency for all targeted engagement times - that basically means that the build required for these "TETs" doesn't actually need any extra heat sinks - its engine double heat sinks are sufficient.



High Damage Weight Requirements
Posted Image
It's notable that you can achieve a lot of damage with little weight. It should be obvious that the low figures for the engagment time fo 15 second is primarily possible with the engine heat sinks.
It is notable again how little you need for a good damage output with medium or small lasers, and how much you need for PPCs, Pulse LAsers and ER Lasers. The heat is really costly.

Maybe as a tip to understand some figures - when a weapon does have the same weight requirement for every targeted engagement time, it probably needs no additional heat sinks to avoid overheating in the targeted engagement time. I set the targeted engagement number and the targeted engagement durations so that the same amount of ammo and damage would be achieved after all engagements - based on the assumptions that you still need to bring the same damage potential to defeat your opponents, whether you do it with 15 second potshots or 30 second brawls.

This may also suggest that these builds will be able to sustain their fire even longer than the targeted engagement time, which can be very handy if you cannot retreat in time - or allow you to add just one or two twons of extra weight for a side weapon.
Low Damage Weight Requirements
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The low damage figure is really low -with smalls or mediums it's extremely trival to achieve and doesn't need many additional heat sinks. It seems very unwise to take much larger weapons, the jump is too extremle. The "Gauss Raven" doesn't look like such a great idea here - and it's questionable that the range advantage is that great in practice.
Contrasting Low and High Damage Weight Requirements

Posted Image

Posted Image

One observation I take from this is - being heavy isn't all that attractive damage-wise - you can already deal a lot of damage with low weight weapons. Maybe that#s a reason why Mediums remain so popular? It'S not just the lag shield, the light mechs can only use the ligher weapons, bu the lighter weapons are much more efficient and you can get powerful damage builds out of them, allowing you to fight enemies above your weight class.

General Conclusion

Ballistics look relatively good, though some could need a little help. Energy weapons seem to be in extremes - the Large Laser now looks good, but the medium and small laser too good, while the ER Large Laser, the pulse lasers and the PPCs need help.

MG and Flamer are extremely weak, so it's no surprise we don't really see them anymore on the battlefield.

If you didn't see any big surprises here and all knew this already and wonder what's all the fuss and charts are about - remember that these are charts based on mathematical properties. They are not anecdotical data or server statistics. But if they seem to fit what you already observed - the methodology may be sound.

#29 ExAstris

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 01:32 PM

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 12 January 2013 - 04:47 AM, said:

The kind of info the Devs should be giving us.


I would just like to thank Mustrum for putting some real work into weapon balance and providing various methods of comparison to bring us useful information to discuss.

I don't agree with Mustrum on alot of things (heat mechanics especially :)), but this contribution should be noted.


That said, I will now proceed to disagree with Mustrum again. :rolleyes:

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 12 January 2013 - 04:47 AM, said:

1) Small Lasers and Medium Lasers may be too efficient, and could use a small reduction in power (quite possibly by equally reducing damage and heat).
2) At least Small and Large Pulse Lasers could use a buff, the Large Pulse Laser needing a bigger buff.
3) The AC/10 could use a small buff.
4) The PPC and ER PPC need notable buffs.
5) The Ultra AC/5 Jamming mechanic needs to be analyzed in detail - it is possible that it is currently making the weapon weaker then its theoretical potential when fired without the double shot mode, which is counter-intuitive..
6) The AC/2 could use a nerf - potentially a mixed nerf/buff - a lower rate of fire, but more ammo per ton?
7) SRM and LRM effectiveness need to be evaluated - currently they seem overly efficient, but this is based on ignoring their special missile grouping mechanics.

As a general caveat - it is difficult to consider all weapon balancing factors. Projectile Speed, ballistic drop, clustering, beam durations. All these are factors. That's why it is important to look closely into the charts and interpret values. Generally speaking - the better one of these factors is for a weapon, the higher its actual effectiveness may be - so for example, by range, we would consider the efficiency of weapons to drop off - by how much or by what formula (if it it's not a straight downwards line) is open to debate. But we can still find grave inconsistencies.



I definitely agree that the charts need a little interpretive work. Putting all the weapons together on a single chart obscures important details such as travel times, damage spread, and hardpoint limitations.

Before I get to what I disagree with, let me hit the points that look solid.

The Good:Your charts show how machine guns fail in every category, in every way, and on every level. I do not understand how they have not been shown any love. Is it holdover from some misguided belief that they're anti-infantry weapons? (which isn't true, they're anti-battlemech weapons, they just get bonuses against infantry. The AMS machine gun in MWO is an example of an actual anti-X weapon. It is anti-missile. Period.)

You may also have some good evidence to suggest the AC10 needs just a smidge of help. Its closest competators (PPC and AC20) tend to win out at just about everything with the AC10 falling even with the lower of the two in about every respect. It doesn't need much, but still.

Small Pulse Lasers need some help, they're completely outclassed by small and medium lasers. I've provided my thoughts on this weapon in detail in my preceeding post.

ERPPC (and ERLL if I might add that): They run way to hot for their range advantage. As your chart shows you end up needing significantly more tonnage to keep them running in extended fights, yet they offer only moderate range advantages which will surely not be getting used for the majority of those fights.

The Iffy: These are some things I'm not so sure about.

The Large Pulse Laser. It might need just a smidge of help to be worth it over the regular large laser, but this weapon already has a slight edge in closer range combat due to its duration. Its a hard effect to measure, but I've noticed more than once when I've gotten all my damage in due to a lower duration beam that would've been 10-40% lost on a regular Large Laser. So maybe a buff, but not much if any.

UAC5. I don't really think it should outperform other ballistic weapons of its weight. TT had room for weapons that were purely superior to others due to tech levels. That doesn't exist here, so its entirely OK if the UAC5 gets better long term dps out of just acting like a regular AC5. The benefit is that it can double up at critical moments. Letting is spam that doubleshot too much lets it overshadow all other options in the same crit/weight range. So while this weapons numbers don't look to great on paper, you're really paying to have some burst potential, not a long term-dps hose, something the chart doesn't reflect.

Medium Laser. This one is iffy for me because the medium laser is the golden standard weapon by which all others are judged. Yes, its at the high end of usability, and is prevalent on a huge number of builds. But its also a staple of mech designs of the era, and its nice to think that there is a reason for that. Furthermore, this weapon has a filler role to so many other heavy weapons that nerfing it hurts almost everyone. And lastly, I think its pretty clear that the mlas isn't overperforming to any substantial degree, so I have trouble calling it broke. Its good, but its also right where it should be.


The Bad: Here's where I think your numbers lie to us. They give us impressions about weapon balance that do not exist in game due to reasons that go beyond the math (as presented anyways).

AC2. It doesn't really need nerfed. Its a direct fire, non-hitscan weapon with very low individual shot damage. You have to continuously aim, and continuously lead. Which means you aren't using other weapons (or using them very effectively), and enemies have more than enough time to react at long range before taking substantial damage. This weapon is aweful at killing, not very good at brawling, but fantastic for harrassing and keeping ridgelines clear. Just the way it should be.

Small Laser. This weapon looks fantastic on paper and on your charts. But in-game, its pretty meh. The reason for this is the hardpoint limitations, its low damage per shot, and game-length. Only a few mechs can boat energy weapons, and they almost all choose the medium laser because the samll just doesn't do enough damage. Even on Cicadas with 6 energy hardpoints, I've given up on small lasers because they just can't burn a target down fast enough. Sure, I can maintain heat forever with them, but they end up spreading damage all over the target due to their higher rate of fire and lower damage per hit and have such low overall dps that they just aren't worth it. This weapon does not need nerfed. (and anyone who thinks buffing machine guns to do as much or even a bit more dps than the small laser would make them way to powerful, needs to actually try running 4 small lasers and see if they can do anything with them)

SRMs and LRMs. Their handling mechanics are so divergent from the rest of the weapons that it is meaningless to put them on these charts. People get the impression that they are overpowered when the only truely competative weapon out of the entire selection is the SRM6. LRMs can be competative on a few maps (Caustic, Forest Colony), but are very easy to render entirely ineffective on others (River City, Frozen City), and since we can't pick our map, they're hard to justify in 8man competative drops (especially with ECM, AMS, 180m minimum range, etc). So the mechanics of these weapons makes their representations here useless and misleading. The only weapon you might concieve of as overpowered in this selection is the SRM6, and that is only because of its burst damage potential when boated and fired at point blank (to minimize the spread and maximize its damage/weight ratio advantage). And even with the SRM6, you can get much better concentrations of damage at far superior ranges with ballistic heavy loadouts, so I do not see any immediate need to nerf the SRM6.


TL;DR:
For weapons that perform quite similarly, those charts can be useful. For weapons at the extreme ends of performance, those comparisons are highly misleading. For weapons with extremely different handling, those charts are useless.

But we can still learn a few things from the data.

#30 Neput Z34

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 04:29 PM

#1 BAP could be some what more usefull against ECM than it is in it's current state.

#2 More chassis spesific engine restrictions, as in, no 150kph Ravens thats a job more suited for a Spider or maybe Jenner

#3 Some weapon tweaks in regard to damage, ROF and heat, LRG Pulse Laser, MGs, etc

#31 icervoid

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 04:41 PM

a light with 18 armor back torso = a assault with 18 armor back torso
but the light is supperiour faster

#32 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 03:19 AM

View PostExAstris, on 12 January 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:


I would just like to thank Mustrum for putting some real work into weapon balance and providing various methods of comparison to bring us useful information to discuss.

I don't agree with Mustrum on alot of things (heat mechanics especially <_<), but this contribution should be noted.


That said, I will now proceed to disagree with Mustrum again. :P




I definitely agree that the charts need a little interpretive work. Putting all the weapons together on a single chart obscures important details such as travel times, damage spread, and hardpoint limitations.

Before I get to what I disagree with, let me hit the points that look solid.

The Good:Your charts show how machine guns fail in every category, in every way, and on every level. I do not understand how they have not been shown any love. Is it holdover from some misguided belief that they're anti-infantry weapons? (which isn't true, they're anti-battlemech weapons, they just get bonuses against infantry. The AMS machine gun in MWO is an example of an actual anti-X weapon. It is anti-missile. Period.)

You may also have some good evidence to suggest the AC10 needs just a smidge of help. Its closest competators (PPC and AC20) tend to win out at just about everything with the AC10 falling even with the lower of the two in about every respect. It doesn't need much, but still.

Small Pulse Lasers need some help, they're completely outclassed by small and medium lasers. I've provided my thoughts on this weapon in detail in my preceeding post.

ERPPC (and ERLL if I might add that): They run way to hot for their range advantage. As your chart shows you end up needing significantly more tonnage to keep them running in extended fights, yet they offer only moderate range advantages which will surely not be getting used for the majority of those fights.

The Iffy: These are some things I'm not so sure about.

The Large Pulse Laser. It might need just a smidge of help to be worth it over the regular large laser, but this weapon already has a slight edge in closer range combat due to its duration. Its a hard effect to measure, but I've noticed more than once when I've gotten all my damage in due to a lower duration beam that would've been 10-40% lost on a regular Large Laser. So maybe a buff, but not much if any.

UAC5. I don't really think it should outperform other ballistic weapons of its weight. TT had room for weapons that were purely superior to others due to tech levels. That doesn't exist here, so its entirely OK if the UAC5 gets better long term dps out of just acting like a regular AC5. The benefit is that it can double up at critical moments. Letting is spam that doubleshot too much lets it overshadow all other options in the same crit/weight range. So while this weapons numbers don't look to great on paper, you're really paying to have some burst potential, not a long term-dps hose, something the chart doesn't reflect.

Medium Laser. This one is iffy for me because the medium laser is the golden standard weapon by which all others are judged. Yes, its at the high end of usability, and is prevalent on a huge number of builds. But its also a staple of mech designs of the era, and its nice to think that there is a reason for that. Furthermore, this weapon has a filler role to so many other heavy weapons that nerfing it hurts almost everyone. And lastly, I think its pretty clear that the mlas isn't overperforming to any substantial degree, so I have trouble calling it broke. Its good, but its also right where it should be.


The Bad: Here's where I think your numbers lie to us. They give us impressions about weapon balance that do not exist in game due to reasons that go beyond the math (as presented anyways).

AC2. It doesn't really need nerfed. Its a direct fire, non-hitscan weapon with very low individual shot damage. You have to continuously aim, and continuously lead. Which means you aren't using other weapons (or using them very effectively), and enemies have more than enough time to react at long range before taking substantial damage. This weapon is aweful at killing, not very good at brawling, but fantastic for harrassing and keeping ridgelines clear. Just the way it should be.

Small Laser. This weapon looks fantastic on paper and on your charts. But in-game, its pretty meh. The reason for this is the hardpoint limitations, its low damage per shot, and game-length. Only a few mechs can boat energy weapons, and they almost all choose the medium laser because the samll just doesn't do enough damage. Even on Cicadas with 6 energy hardpoints, I've given up on small lasers because they just can't burn a target down fast enough. Sure, I can maintain heat forever with them, but they end up spreading damage all over the target due to their higher rate of fire and lower damage per hit and have such low overall dps that they just aren't worth it. This weapon does not need nerfed. (and anyone who thinks buffing machine guns to do as much or even a bit more dps than the small laser would make them way to powerful, needs to actually try running 4 small lasers and see if they can do anything with them)

SRMs and LRMs. Their handling mechanics are so divergent from the rest of the weapons that it is meaningless to put them on these charts. People get the impression that they are overpowered when the only truely competative weapon out of the entire selection is the SRM6. LRMs can be competative on a few maps (Caustic, Forest Colony), but are very easy to render entirely ineffective on others (River City, Frozen City), and since we can't pick our map, they're hard to justify in 8man competative drops (especially with ECM, AMS, 180m minimum range, etc). So the mechanics of these weapons makes their representations here useless and misleading. The only weapon you might concieve of as overpowered in this selection is the SRM6, and that is only because of its burst damage potential when boated and fired at point blank (to minimize the spread and maximize its damage/weight ratio advantage). And even with the SRM6, you can get much better concentrations of damage at far superior ranges with ballistic heavy loadouts, so I do not see any immediate need to nerf the SRM6.


TL;DR:
For weapons that perform quite similarly, those charts can be useful. For weapons at the extreme ends of performance, those comparisons are highly misleading. For weapons with extremely different handling, those charts are useless.

But we can still learn a few things from the data.

Thanks for the comments. We often don't agree, so I am not surprise with some level of disagreement here, but you post some good points. The small laser is definitely an excellent point to show how my system does not yet tell the full story. I agree that the advantage the small laser enjoys has is almost irrelevant since eve if you get the most bang for your buck, or rather your ton, hard points ensure that you cannot take enough of these to make it a problem - efficiency isn#t everything, you also need to bring effectiveness - e.g. your end damage must be significant enough. But at least the same logic would apply for the MG (not that you disagree with me) - it may be cheap, heatless and all - but you couldn't get enough hard points for that either.
That said - this is true now. We don't know if we won't end up with a mech that has enough hard points for the small laser advantage to matter (though from the limited selection of lore mechs i know, I can only think of the Nova with its 12 ER Medium Lasers requiring more than the highest mechs already give us. But in the time of the Nova we will also have to consider Omnimechs and their limitations and advantages as well, so I am not sure yet...)

Regarding the Ultra AC/5 - I don't really want to see it buffed, I just want it changed. Its base fire rate must be lower, and its double shot fire rate, considering jam chance and duration should be set so that it competes fairly with other weapons of its weight and range.

#33 Codejack

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 05:49 AM

View Posticervoid, on 12 January 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

a light with 18 armor back torso = a assault with 18 armor back torso
but the light is supperiour faster


Wow, who only puts 18 armor on the back of an assault?

#34 S0RG

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 10:13 AM

MG: Machine guns look pretty balanced to me by the stats. The real problem about them is how they deal with the hardpoint system in this MWO. In previous MW games 1 ballistic slot could host any number of ballistic, limited by the size of said weaps...so you could change, say, a 2-slot ac5 for 2 MG always using one hardpoint. In MWO i'd like the MG to be purchasable as a Machine Gun Rack (a term not unknown to us) occupying 1 hardpoint, no weight, and able to carry as many MGs as the slots and weight allow. MGs shoud become ballistic weaps that do not occupy hardpoints and can only be installed in a MG Rack

SSRMS: i don't really see how people find them in need of a nerf given the current state of ECM, Tag & Narc. It may be obvious but...streaks are run by mechs with no ECM, too! If ECM lights with strange hitboxes and light lagshield that run SSRMS look a bit OP to you, well that's perfectly normal but ssrms is the smallest part of the problem.
Would a change making streaks be able to be fired as normal srm2s OR as streaks (with an ecm-like toggle) offend too much of the fluff?

PREV TARGET button: Am i the only one missing this badly?

#35 Mad Elf

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 04:01 PM

(my emphasis)

View PostLanderaxe, on 10 January 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

Please let me add that as a founder, I have also purchased several founder memberships for friends because I loved the faithfulness of what I saw when this was first coming out. Maybe it's the extended beta with no community warfare that is sapping my interest in the game, but I have to say that seeing PGI seemingly pander to the cries of casual gamers who'll be playing something else in a few months, and disregarding the hopes of loyal, dedicated Battletech fans who've invested in this franchise and want a more simulation feel, has not helped to keep me playing. The hardcore fans are your real player base, and will be playing this game for years to come IF they are being given what they feel is right. Battletech is a niche market with die-hard fans, but they'll turn away if they are disregarded.

Please, take us into consideration. You have done such wonderous things with the title to this point. Stay the path!

Thanks!


This is the most important thing I've seen said on any of these forums for a long time. PGI, please pay attention!

#36 Herodes

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 04:56 PM

View PostMad Elf, on 13 January 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

(my emphasis)


This is the most important thing I've seen said on any of these forums for a long time. PGI, please pay attention!



Agreed.

#37 A55hunt3r

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 07:15 PM

the way light mechs work with ECM is an anti-fun-factor to me at its current state. i dont know how many games i have seen yet, with lights just running into a whole team (ECMs equipped), firing their streak srms and not being scratched at all.

either the effectiveness of ECM in general, the ability of lights weilding one or the general durability of lightmechs (i think noone would agree with that) needs to be nerfed.

maybe ECMs need to be made uneffective at short range, thats what i personally think would be the best way of balance.

Edited by A55hunt3r, 13 January 2013 - 07:16 PM.


#38 Joker Two

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 08:26 PM

View PostArmageddonKnight, on 08 January 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

Restrict Light mechs to 2 a team. 1 for scout frontline 1 to stay back with pack .. or 2 frontline scouts What ever they decide to do, its much better than having 4 lights mech cluster ***** the hell out of everyone. Ether that or restrict maximum speed to somthing like 100kph. Thats still plenty fast enough. And/or Restrict light mechs to using Light weapons. (And do the same for other weight classes) or go so far as to put more specific limitations on each mech. i.e Raven: Can equip up to 1 medium class weapon + 2 light weapons, or 5 Light weapons. Light weapons being classed as Small lasers, SSRM 2's, SRM 2's, AC2's. Then have each class of weapon do different damage depending on what its hitting. So a light weapon hitting an Assualt class mech would do say 30% of its normal dmg. but against another light it would do 100% dmg. A Assualt class weapon would do 180% dmg vs a Light mech.. and so on. Makes sense IMO. You look at a Mech like the Catapult with 2 huge Gun mounts on the shoudlers for say .. PPC's ..or Large Lasers etc, or a Cataphract with 2 arms with HUGE guns for AC5's/AC10's and gauss rifles. Then see a light mech wielding one of the same weapons in a mount so small u can barely see it.. WHAT !? I got nothing against light mechs.. i think they r great ..but they are so totaly broken right now, and can carry silly weapons.. its like having a speed boat in real life mounting a 16"/50 caliber Mark 7 gun like u find on the battleship Missouri.


If you restrict the # of lights, in general play, to a fixed number (or for that matter of any weapon, 'Mech, piece of equipment) you are hampering the flexibility that makes the Battletech Universe, and MWO in particular, what it is, as well as setting a dangerous precedent. Plus, with the current manner in which matches are arranged, matchmaking will take much longer as the system struggles to find the right ration of each class.

If you apply a blanket speed cap to all 'Mechs, especially one that is lower than the base speed of two currently existing 'Mechs, and another due out this month, you are extremely hampering people who already have those 'Mechs, in many cases having paid money to receive them. Plus, by limiting speed you turn the game into a brawling match, almost by definition.

For weapon hardpoints, I am in full agreement that there should be at least "small" and "large" hardpoints, with "large" weapons (AC/10, /20, Gauss Rifle, LRM-15, -20, Large Laser, PPC, and the variants of each) taking up two hardpoint slots. This is not terribly restrictive (as existing hardpoint slots would be increased to match the canon armament of each variant) but would cut down on the "replace a Machine Gun with a Gauss Rifle" syndrome of some designs (not just the -K2, although that is the most noticeable).

For scaling damage by weight class, that way lies madness. 'Mechs of different weight classes already have the capability to carry different numbers of weapons of different sizes. Weapons have the same weight and heat costs for everyone, the advantage is that heavier chassis can carry more of them, more heatsinks to sustain them, and more ammo supply them. When they already out-damage lighter designs significantly, and can survive more damage as well, the only things lights have going for them is small profiles and better engine-weight-to-speed rations.

View PostCmndoBrndo, on 08 January 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

I think the Jenner JR7-D should receive ECM as originally planned. If the Raven can equip ECM and streaks, so should the Jenner. The Jenner has been utterly neutered.


How about the 7-K, not the -D. Only 1 Missile Hardpoint, and it gives that chassis a purpose. And I run a 7-D even since the ECM patch. Plus, ECM should be adapted to fit the rest of the game, the rest of the game shouldn't have to change to fit ECM. We don't see Commandos, Ravens, Cicadas, and Atlases the most because they are inherently better, simply that certain variants of them are the only chassis capable of accessing ECM. Because of the power of ECM, that availability trumps most other factors.

#39 Greg Djekow

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 10:21 PM

I wonder if someone actually reads this.

The most important issues that need to be fixed are:

ECM

and

Collisions.

The stealth effect does in no way fit to ECM.
If you're arguing "ECM counters Electronics" then I have to ask: Why does my PPC still work? Thats Electronic too. Capacitors need to be charged and information needs to go to the BMs Computer (which would be dead too due to ECM).
So Instead of the current effects I'd propose the following Effect for ECM:
* Negate Artemis IV and Narc Boni in range
* Deactivate BAPs in range
* StreakSRMs still need a lock to fire but don't track anymore.
* If in ECCM mode counter 1 ECM (like it allready does).
It should NOT:
- prohibit lock on of LRMs/SRMs at any range
- prohibit a general lock on the mech or other covered mechs. This is the realm of Stealth Armor IMO.

Mechs who want to be stealthy should get some stealth armor (which I suppose is going to be implemented too) or other Camo System.

If you really need to let ECM affect LRMs and locking in general, then just increase the LRM spread a bit. Sort of an inverted Artemis system. ECM will still be good for light mechs since it protects them from the SSRMs which they usually can't evade.
If it affects LRMs in a reasonable (read: not the current) way, it will even be desirable for heavier mechs. And if something like detailed target information (the status monitor) is going to be hidden while in ECM coverage, it would make it desirable without overpowering it.

Collisions:
For obvious reasons. As long as the lagshield problem isn't fixed, Lights can just tackle and kill about everything else that doesn't boat Streaks. Without the lagshield one could argue that they are at least hit-able in a reliable way if you can aim. However, trying to guess what lagshield this particular light has, combined with the inherend speed and maneuverability is overkill. I DO agree that lights should be able to go fast, so they can make up with speed and maneuverability what they lack in armor. A good light pilot should have a chance at tackling a heavy or assault. You should need to try to stay in the back of a mech, show off your piloting skills and evade the aim. Not just run in circles at full speed like a ******.


Also the Lagshield needs to get fixed. However, since this is not an inherent part of balancing but rather a problem with the netcode, I'd rate that as "bugfix" and not as "balance fix".

There was always a FOTM. Gausspults, StreakCats, Macross-Missile-Massacre. However, the ECM FOTM is by far the worst. Its very unfun atm. If you need to balance LRMs cause they were OP, then just fix them like all other weapons. Adjust heat and damage.

#40 Footupyzz

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 04:48 AM

As scout jenner is my favourite i will imput suggestions about what they should or should not do with the jenner mech's;

1. points that are good as it is:
-i think the jenner is "almost"good as it is...don't need ECM. Because after introducing the ecm in the game...playing a jenner now is more challencing for me (i love it when i encounter an ecm-scout (raven comm or cicade) cause now it takes skill to take 'm out).
-And that there are jenners running around with a heavy weapon is not a prob...cause they can mostely fire 1 or 2 times before overheating and mostely have to give up armor or speed.


2.suggestions for improvement:
-The JJ can be improved cause now i can not jump high anymore. It is not that i have real probs now with the way they are. But scouting on top of a building is cool:D
-the dammage to the legs is a bit extreme ...and i already use the JJ with the landing!! ...in compare to an atlas (or any heavy/assault) that can fall 20 meters down without dammage to the legs!!!
I mean mech's with JJ capability should have some mechanism that would prevent dammage to the legs when landing.

-Also introducing knockdown would be great..makes it more realistic

I hope you keep in mind (dev's and players)that it is still a simulator so keep the realism in the game......please. :wub:

FootupYazz signing out ;)

Edited by Footupyazz, 14 January 2013 - 04:59 AM.






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