442 replies to this topic

[Sandslice]

TygerLily, on 11 January 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

Coincidentally, my friend Blood78 posted a similar idea on our unit's forums. I think it's the right direction:

"If ECM actually had real opportunity cost. Say it's still same critical slot and c-bill but now weigh 5 ton, susceptible to blowing up (like Gauss) but does no damage. It'd actually make a lot of sense. Atlas DDC wouldn't have to sacrifice much to get 5 ton but Raven, Commando, and even Cicada would. So what you'd see is more balanced play because ECM mechs would have to sacrifice something meaningful to carry that ECM. Whether it's armaments, heatsink, armor, slower speed, etc. That would ultimately mean that mech of same weight class that cannot carry ECM have better chance of taking it on. Which hopefully mean that your non-ECM fast mechs can neutralize their ECM mechs faster.

For example, Raven 3L with 5 ton ECM may carry 1 S.Laser and 2 SSRM-2 and run slower. You could hunt or take that 3L on with non-ECM lights."

And because the stock 3L carries 1.5t ECM, they can't make a change to 5 (or even 3) ton ECM. They won't (or can't?) break the stock models.

[TygerLily]

Sandslice, on 11 January 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

And because the stock 3L carries 1.5t ECM, they can't make a change to 5 (or even 3) ton ECM. They won't (or can't?) break the stock models.

i don't think I quite follow. I'm sure if they decided to make that sort of change they'd edit the stock loadout accordingly.

[Sir Roland MXIII]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 11 January 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

A few posts back you said "first it was jenners, now its ravens", and yet now you are suggesting that ECM makes light mechs viable? Light mechs have always been plenty viable.

You're taking the post you quoted 100% out of context. That post had ZERO% to do with ECM and 100% to do with light weight class. No where in that post does it have anything to say about ECM making lights viable. They were viable before, and I'm sorry for you if you couldn't figure that out since I thought it was patently obvious.

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 11 January 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

mechwarrior is about radar. ECM removes radar from the game. mechwarrior is now simply counterstrike with mechs.

Since LRMS need a TAG LOS and cant breach cover and track and do damage as if they where SSRMS this gameplay is further emphasized.

I dont understand your comment with previous mech games, light mechs where extremely viable in both mech3 and mech4. I never had issues running lights vs other mechs. Nor did I have issues pre-ecm in MWO running light mechs.

To be fair, all I know of previous MW games comes from what I've heard about from people who played them. I was not one, so I listen to what people say about those games and then add a grain of salt. There accounts, and yours.

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 11 January 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

Radar was already iffy before ECM. Now, this game is thermal vision counter strike or take an ECM mech if you want to use ssrms, and even then they might be worthless in the fight if you are out ecmed.

Pray tell do give an example of another video game where a company inserts a new component, extends that components abilities WAY beyond the actual reference manual, sees full teams starts everyone using that component or moving to direct fire, and then says "this is working as intended".

Well since I agree with you on ECM I'm really not sure why I must go to so much effort to prove a point that isn't mine. You're not only preaching to the choir, you seem absolutely oblivious to this fact. Maybe time to go get some coffee and boot the ole grey matter up, eh?

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 11 January 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

I guess maybe a lot of us are in the wrong game here. All that "Radar" in mech2,3,4 & btech:3025 is so 1990's.

Who played those mech games anyhow?

Enough people played those games that we now have a new MW game in the series. If you think they sucked and no one played them then why is there still an ongoing series? I'm interested to hear your idea of this since most of what you have said so far leads me to believe that, in the arena of logic, you fight unarmed, and your flailings are amusing.

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 11 January 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

If I gave you a gun and said "this gun works against everything except ECM mechs, and then I gave you another gun and said "this gun always works" well, what kind of ***** would take the first gun?

Please allow me to list every weapon in this game that works against ECM.

Small Laser
Small Pulse Laser
Medium Laser
Medium Pulse Laser
Large Laser
Large Pulse Laser
ER Large Laser
PPC
ERPPC

AC 2
AC 5
UAC 5
AC 10
LB 10X
AC 20
Guass Rifle

SRM 2
SRM 4
SRM 6
SSRM 2
LRM 5
LRM 10
LRM 15
LRM 20

So, basically, a list of every weapon that works against ECM is also a list of every weapon currently in this beta. Sure some of those need a little help to work. That help is known as skill. You develop that using brains, and practice.

* * *

Sandslice, on 11 January 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

I'm aware that much of it is repetition. If I can clarify what I mean by "ECM prevents people from learning," it's this.

TL;DR: ECM is a major cause of the Raven becoming fotm. By itself, as well as with other game mechanical issues, it has created a metagame that discourages learning sound light-piloting doctrines.

See when you put it that way, I agree wholeheartedly. I told the Craven build thread that they're a bunch o' bandwagoners and once ECM gets rightfully nerfed I'll be happy to have them drop out of my favorite mech. Also that the sooner that happened the happier I'll be. I wanted to play the Raven in TT but didn't get the chance, so of course once I found out about MW:O I wanted to play tthe Raven before I paid up for the Veterran package. My favorite ride's getting a lot of villification - like, say, this very thread - and the sooner that stops, the better.

Sandslice, on 11 January 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

1. As with Atlai, the perceived strength of ECM has caused people to "flock" to the Streak heroes (keep in mind that they could Streak even before ECM, yet apparently it was the Jenner that was fotm); generally, you see non-ECM Commandos and Ravens while they're going for efficiency unlocks (and the Raven currently enjoys the advantage of having the 2x as a trial, so you can bypass the purchase.) Either that, or because they don't know better or are trying to be "better than that."

2. Because Streak heroes cap their speed, you must, simply to have a glimmer of hope. Don't be fooled. 113.4 kph is free to a Streak hero, yet capping basically requires the biggest XLE, more than doubling the cost of your 'Mech as well as its vulnerability (not that lights do well in that department to start with.)

3. Even doing so, you won't be faster unless you have speed tweak and they don't, which means that the "flight" portion of the fight-or-flight dilemma is dictated for you... as is the tactic (being forced into a tactically unsound circle dance because that's what *they* want to do.)

4. Which brings us back to the ECM, which dictates your weapon choices: since you can't Streak without having friendly ECM, you are constrained to use unguided and generally channelled weapons (lasers and pulse lasers) at relative velocities ranging from about 3kph to over 300, against something that is not where you see it to be - and not always where you just found it two weapon cooldowns ago. Or to join the Dark Side and use ECM yourself.

As I said I planned to run a Raven for years prior to MW:O. All these Raven bandwagoners didn't join the Dark Side, they joined ME. Which may amount to the same thing... Anyways point being I will still play and love my Raven beyond the EDM changes, just as I did before we had ECM in the first place. Oh, and no, I don't use the Craven build, I hate fotm builds and that build isn't optimal for how I play either. I actually take ECM and TAG to help my taem, Craven pilots don't give one f*** or s*** about their team and are there for themselves. Major bloody difference.

Sandslice, on 11 January 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

All this goes against learning good light play.

Aye. Now that you've explained it I see what you're saying, and I have to agree.

Sandslice, on 11 January 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

(Edit, finishing this thought.)
Having to account for ECM includes leaving BAP off, since ECM > BAP; this reduces scouting to turning the corner and hoping they're not looking at it, since there are no other non-LoS sensors in MWO, let alone any that can either defeat or at least betray ECM (by revealing the edge of its bubble, for example.)

Having to account for ECM on Streak heroes sharply limits your construction and tactical options for combat.

Aye but this will happen, it's beta so the paradigm we have is not the paradigm we'll have at release. Change happens. The tough adapt and the rest sit here on the forums whining as if that will make them better mechwarrios. Nothing new about that.

Sandslice, on 11 January 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

As for learning from death: dying to LRMs teaches you to be more aware of terrain / cover options. Dying to something like a Streak Cat teaches you to be more patient and aware of relative range combat. Dying to a big Stalker Alpha teaches you that "crossing the T" isn't necessarily a good idea. However, dying to an ECM Streak hero only teaches you to join the club.
You can't learn evasive manoeuvres against something that is faster (especially in MWO, where all aspects of agility are linked to top speed.) You can't learn sound tactical play against things that can force you to either give them your back or noob-circle.

All of which are tactics and problems that existed before ECM, and will still exist in the future. Perhaps, just a bit more severe now is all.

Anyways thanks for takin' the time to explain your comment, I appreciate that.

Edited by Sir Roland MXIII, 11 January 2013 - 05:09 PM.

[Sh4dow78]

Just got a game where enemy have 5! ECM ravens ... not to mention got also ATLAS+ECM and some hunchbacks ... IMPOSSIBLE to win... u just CANT kill fast moving ECM raven with anything JUST anything... dont tell me to lead my fire since they just run all around me as a group and u cant do NOTHING but just die ...


Limit ECM for group to like 2 max ? and then make matchmaking setup so both teams have same number of ECM. Its really annoying play games like this when so many ppl simply abuse game weaknes.


ECM is not problem itself i think. The problem is u just CANT eliminate light ECM mech fast they will just run around our group like 3-4 ppl focus 1 RAVEN and CANT kill it ? cmon ... meanwhile rest their team not playing poker game they just simply kill my teammates who are busy killing those little ******** with no succes ...

U can also make so we can lock on ecm HOST but not lock on ppl under ECM umbrella this way they cant just run all over the map. They need cooperate with their team, relay on teammates AMS use cover to not die to rocket spam but still be able to scout for team and protect allies from rocket spam.. IMAO this would be a lot better and stop lights ECM sneaky ******** from abusing and dominating games...

Edited by Scarface1978, 11 January 2013 - 05:26 PM.

[Noth]

Scarface1978, on 11 January 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

Limit ECM for group to like 2 max ? and then make matchmaking setup so both teams have same number of ECM. Its really annoying play games like this when so many ppl simply abuse game weaknes.


ECM is not problem itself i think.

If something is so powerful it needs limited by numbers in a match that is evidence that it is indeed a problem.

[Valaska]

Fireye, on 08 January 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

PGI has said that they intend to wait a month after the implementation of ECM to re-examine it. How can you be surprised that they haven't said anything firm since it hasn't been a month?

And stalin made 5 year plans that through better or worse the country stuck to. History has shown us doing **** like this when there is an OBVIOUS need to stray from the "plan" leads to irreparable damage, ECM needs to be addressed weeks ago.

[Valaska]

So a large amount of people are content that now the only viable weapons are Lasers due to ECM? That is pretty ridiculous guys.

[Victor Morson]

Valaska, on 11 January 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

So a large amount of people are content that now the only viable weapons are Lasers due to ECM? That is pretty ridiculous guys.

Worse yet, in serious play, content is not limited to a handful of 'mechs too. Other than maybe a gimmick Stalker, everyone runs the DDC exclusively for the assault slot now in competitive play. That sucks.

[Sir Roland MXIII]

Valaska, on 11 January 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

So a large amount of people are content that now the only viable weapons are Lasers due to ECM? That is pretty ridiculous guys.

If by "ridiculous" you mean in the sense that's completely false, then yes. If not, stop drinkin' the kool aid.

[Codejack]

I think ECM should have a 50% chance of just exploding at the beginning of every round.

[Ramses2020]

ECM is fine. It's actually quite good.

When I pug (and I ALWAYS pug) and there are one or two ECM on both sides, it's typically more fun than a match without ECM. If I am faced with two ECMs while my team has only one, it is difficult, but achievable to defeat them. However, if the difference is two or more ECMs, the game is over before it begins. As the number of ECMs go up, the difference is increased exponentially. 2v4 is a lot less balanced than 0v2 because a lot of the warfare involved with ECM battles is isolating and picking off stragglers. With more mechs on the field with ECM, it's a lot more difficult to find stragglers.

As pilots are adapting to ECM, I have noticed that LRMs and streaks are beginning to return to the game, and they are doing so in a way that isn't Streakcat online or LRM online. For once AMS isn't mandatory, but it is helpful. But they are all useless when the delta of ECM is 2 or more. If it were up to me, I'd insist that MM limit the amount of ECM to two, and each team must have the same amount of ECM. 0v0, 1v1, or 2v2. Nothing else. Ever. I believe this fix would end the complaints surrounding ECM and return role warfare to where it should be..

ECM isn't the problem, matchmaker is.

[Marcus Tanner]

Ramses2020, on 11 January 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

As pilots are adapting to ECM, I have noticed that LRMs and streaks are beginning to return to the game, and they are doing so in a way that isn't Streakcat online or LRM online. For once AMS isn't mandatory, but it is helpful. But they are all useless when the delta of ECM is 2 or more. If it were up to me, I'd insist that MM limit the amount of ECM to two, and each team must have the same amount of ECM. 0v0, 1v1, or 2v2. Nothing else. Ever. I believe this fix would end the complaints surrounding ECM and return role warfare to where it should be..

The appropriate thing to do in this case is to take what you like about ECM and remove it from the ECM equipment and just give it to everyone as standard gear.

That way ECM can be reasonable for its price (tonnage/crits), everyone gets to have fun, and people can choose to bring whatever mech they feel like without affecting their team.

Your suggestion can still lead to a lot of lame games when one or more of the ECM mechs is piloted by a new/laggy player, a player with bad FPS or an afk player. The game may very well come down to how proficient your ECM-carrying contingent is. That's bad.

[Sir Roland MXIII]

Marcus Tanner, on 11 January 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:

The appropriate thing to do in this case is to take what you like about ECM and remove it from the ECM equipment and just give it to everyone as standard gear.

That way ECM can be reasonable for its price (tonnage/crits), everyone gets to have fun, and people can choose to bring whatever mech they feel like without affecting their team.

Your suggestion can still lead to a lot of lame games when one or more of the ECM mechs is piloted by a new/laggy player, a player with bad FPS or an afk player. The game may very well come down to how proficient your ECM-carrying contingent is. That's bad.

Can't say the Syndrome style ECM idea is interesting, but maybe it has merit. <shrug>

However, what if we simplified his idea? Or, more accurately, made it universal? MW:T will be using a BV point-based matchmaker, so why not use that same idea here? BV would be calculated on a per-item basis, including things such as ECM, or, say, Streaks, LRM, Guass... you know. Everything.

Edited by Sir Roland MXIII, 11 January 2013 - 06:57 PM.

[Strucker]

Alex Wolfe, on 10 January 2013 - 03:45 AM, said:

Good thing about ECM is that, while it is way too powerful for its size and weight (magical AoE null sig for free)... it prevents the game devolving back into INCOMING MISSILE Online. LRM boats with their alpha damage in hundreds, as well as the raidboss (6ssrm2 A1) are still in the game, unchanged from the time they were utterly dominating the metagame. ECM keeps them in check by making people less likely to carry those configs.

Not quite sure I'd go that far, to be fair I actually see more issues with missiles incoming these days for the sheer fact that a lot of players are grouping up with either 4 streak raven's / commando's or a combination of the previous 2 mechs with an assortment of streak boating cat's or stalker's.

When you roll those fast build the combination of lagshield and no ability to use 1 or 2 streaks to counter those fast light mechs, it pretty much becomes screwed from the start.

Most of my matches end with me getting swarmed by 4 ECM streak lights and I just DC or run out of bounds, I have no interest in playing in a match when this BS is going on.

Boating streaks was BS, but implementing ECM and removing the most effective means of countering lagshield lights is even more BS.

For those who say just shoot with lasers give me a laser than can counter a light effectively and I will otherwise **** and stop trying to defend your noob ECM builds.

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

and now you know why I haven't logged on since the introduction of ecm.

because of little mechs going really really fast with impunity to damage because of lag shield and no knockdown.


it's world of light mechs, and if you don't drive one that's properly configured then you're asking to lose.

[ICEFANG13]

The stock load out is based on table top (which is fine if the deviate, but), so if they change it, it would be like changing the Raven-3L completely. It wouldn't really be a Raven-3L, the amount of customization is from PGI, and the new Raven wouldn't be any other Raven, just a magic new one.

[Stingz]

Changing the effects of ECM is easier and better than changing all ECM-Stock mechs later. It's pretty clear that ECM makes a huge difference in combat, bad teams are still bad teams though.

[DaangeroussDann]

Interesting stuff. Im a mech warrior from way back until the bitter end of mwl and NBT, even mwA was dying before I finally quit. Outside of the horid memory leak that causes me to have to restart the game every 3 rounds, I love the variant system being used, until this latest patch, puting ecm on only a few mechs. Not only is ecm way op, and makes all other electronics useless, but it also causes the battle field to be littered with ecm mechs turning the entire game into a brawl. There is no check and balance, there is no tactic that can beat the ecm bung rush with heavy brawling weapons on any one of the maps we have so far, if played smartly. There is no reason to lose a match if everyone goes heavy brawl weapons, moves as one under ecm, game over.
Repeating myself: BAP should decect ecm interfierance at 250 meters, no matter what. This will balance the overwhelmingly OP ecm ingame right now, but not crush its value.
I dont see how ecm stops any missile lock on mechs either, or at least not from outside the ecm effect. I can see it if they are inside the area of effect,, but really , think about it. Maybe let lrm's lock, but lose lock when they enter the ecm radius of influence, in flight. So they continue on their path that last 200 meters but cannot follow a turning mech. That makes more sense, because then the lamo pilots just sitting there, unmoving , will get hit. They have to keep moving at all times for ecm to help them vs. lrm's outside 200 meters who obtained lock. because early in their travels they are guided, until they hit the ecm guardian influence.
This ECM is more like a BLACK OUT EMITTER. I will not keep playing for long if it does not change somewhat, because soon people will realize how easy it is to just use organized movement under ecm, with all the brawler weapons you can carry, and you will always win. This is not "tactics", this is basic brawler 101, that we all learned back in MW2 during our first 2 weeks of playing.

Fix it, make BAP detect ecm cloaked mechs at about max distance for brawler weapons (250), so at least missile platforms have an angle and a fighting chance to counter the mindless brawler tactics that ecm is.

[DaangeroussDann]

Noth, on 11 January 2013 - 05:36 PM, said:

Scarface1978, on 11 January 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

Limit ECM for group to like 2 max ? and then make matchmaking setup so both teams have same number of ECM. Its really annoying play games like this when so many ppl simply abuse game weaknes.


ECM is not problem itself i think.

If something is so powerful it needs limited by numbers in a match that is evidence that it is indeed a problem.

Just reduce its radius of effect, force brawler groups to stay real tight together, 200 meters is way too big an area of effect. you could have 100 mech fit in that, its insane and unbalancing, unless all you care about is brawling, and are afraid of lrm's.
100 meters of such a powerful ecm (BLACK-OUT EMITTER) is still too much, but it'd be a nice start. Cut the ecm area of effect in half, and allow missile locks to occur but then lose lock in flight when they enter the ecm radius. Problem partly solved. ECM is still good, the game will have more than just bung rush brawls in it.

Edited by DaangeroussDann, 11 January 2013 - 07:59 PM.

[Sandslice]

TygerLily, on 11 January 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

i don't think I quite follow. I'm sure if they decided to make that sort of change they'd edit the stock loadout accordingly.

In short, what Icefang said. I'm not sure whether the licence or simple design intent prevents change, but the stock configs are intended to be true to TRO 2750, 3025, 3039, and/or 3050, as appropriate. The TT stock RVN-3L has ECM, and so the MWO RVN-3L does. The AS7-D-DC carries two cockpits and two pilots over the board, and so does (well, sans the second pilot or any other function) here.

Besides, we want PGI's team to be producing and testing more maps, more game modes, ongoing major bug fixes, and suchlike. Not building potentially broken 'Mechs and exposing themselves to more of our long-winded explanations, rants, and assorted kyuu-kyuu.