605 replies to this topic

[Amarus Cameron]

Dozer, on 07 November 2011 - 04:37 AM, said:

I do love the factless generalisations here from a player to a game developer whose likely, as part of their business plan, researched the marketplace extensively, certain more so than the poster I can also counter argue here that most of my gaming friends have both power leveled and ebayed, and are all 'western'. I can also point directly to several subs games where full content promised was not delivered FoC on/after release. So you're 'facts' aren't really that conclusive.

As for comparing MMOG with MMORPG I believe that many so called MMORPG's these days have dropped the RPG. Indeed SWTOR for example has marketed their entire 'fourth pillar' (story telling) of their game design as their main differentiator based on this reality. As for conversion rate do you know what it is? If so how can you logically say whether it will or will not be successful?

I just can't understand the incessant need for people to speculate on the pricing model. See what the game offers first. That's the key to the value it will provide.

A very sage comment.

The forums today speculate a game to the point that when released it looks nothing like what we 'think' was promised and we all are disillusioned. Gentlemen, and the ladies present, we are creating our own delusions, please give the developers a chance to make something and come back to us with concrete numbers and mechanics and then we can talk that to death. Because, hey, at least we know there is some fact behind it.

Until then all we are doing is harming our enjoyment of the game because of our inability to understand what the developers do, because we do not have all pertinent information to make an informed opinion.

In the meantime I am just enjoying talking to all of you awesome people about the greatest game ever made, I have walked upon Terra for 22 years now and 16 of those years I have been fully indoctrinated into the mystical art of Battletech.

Edited by Amarus Cameron, 07 November 2011 - 05:20 AM.

[pcunite]

Amarus Cameron, on 07 November 2011 - 05:19 AM, said:

The forums today speculate a game to the point that when released it looks nothing like what we 'think' was promised and we all are disillusioned. Gentlemen, and the ladies present, we are creating our own delusions, please give the developers a chance to make something and come back to us with concrete numbers and mechanics and then we can talk that to death. Because, hey, at least we know there is some fact behind it.

I too want to feel concern for the developers and let them know that there are more sane among us. But be aware that the hysteria is good and actually lets the devs know the passion within the user base. Total silence on fears would not be good. What I'm trying to say is, I think the developers know how to deal with hysteria and people's fears, even unwarranted fears, which help to provide even more clarity for all.

[Amarus Cameron]

pcunite, on 07 November 2011 - 05:32 AM, said:

I too want to feel concern for the developers and let them know that there are more sane among us. But be aware that the hysteria is good and actually lets the devs know the passion within the user base. Total silence on fears would not be good. What I'm trying to say is, I think the developers know how to deal with hysteria and people's fears, even unwarranted fears, which help to provide even more clarity for all.

I can live with that, I just would like that people would not speculate to the point that it makes no sense. Which unfortunately is quite common. Of course at that point it would be nice for a dev to step in an say, "yeah we are not even close to that area." It would be like 0_0, THE DEV HAS SPOKEN *crowd bows* and then we argue about something else.

Either way I just want to see people pleasantly surprised, not let down.

[Bryan Ekman]

Before this goes sideways, please be mindful of each other's point of view. Perception is a tricky thing, opinions are explosive, and passion turns to hating pretty quickly. I respect everyone's comments and ask that all those participating in this thread and forum do the same.

Healthy debate equals a healthy mind, if that mind is willing to accept they could be wrong.

(There is probably a really good quote from someone far more eloquent than myself.)

[Bryan Ekman]

Firefly, on 06 November 2011 - 09:50 PM, said:

My main gripe with F2P models is the ability for trolls to continue trolling, and the ability for cheaters/hackers to continue cheating/hacking, by way of circumventing a ban by creating a new account. And G-d forbid the game have commodities that can be farmed and traded - that opens the door for gold-farmers, gold-sellers, and gold-spammers.

Cheating is prevalent in many online games, subscription, free, and retail. Even console games have hackers and cheaters.

This is a hot topic for us. We're even rewriting how multiplayer is handled in the engine to help solve some of the common problems. Cheating is impossible to eliminate. All we can do is create systems that allow us to find and ban anyone taking advantage of hacks or loop holes. This includes patching, community policing, well written game code, IP bans, etc. Duke Nukem Forever had an aim bot within 24hrs of launch! So we're acutely aware of the problems and how to solve them.

As for commodities, if you have them, people will farm them. Humans are very industrious people after all! Rest assured, Paul hammers this home to me all the time. "Bryan we can't do x, because y will be farmed."

[OnLashoc]

I just wanted to say Bryan (Im OSU_BROWNS_FAN on Twitter ) I think it is totally awesome and unheard of that developers take the time to respond directly to fans, especially in a forum.

Just keep in mind that some of these people are completely off their rockers, and some are utter geniuses.

Don't let some of the coo-coo's around here get to you.

[Lima Zulu]

My opinion about F2P is very simple. If paying members will get "items" available for cash only (i don't mean paint schemes and stickers for mechs and hangars, I'm talking about weapons, armor and other things this kind) - it is P2W. If there is difference only in time needed to get things - it's okay, it cannot be worse korean MMOs anyway.

[Dozer]

"most of your gaming friends" is not representive and everything i wrote is based on statistics and experience.

I think you miss the point. It's not meant to be representative. You stated something as fact. So do I. We contradict each other. Hence the question I asked; which one is right? In this case neither and both.

A lot of people say their perspective is based on statistics and yet fail to provide. Thus the veracity of their comments is lessened, at least to me. If you could provide proof then I would be more than willing to read and incorporate in my replies. More than happy to review my opinion in the face of fact and not speculation. Experience... we'll have to take that on face value as again mine differs to yours. Both are valid.
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"rpg" is a genre-description for some kind of gamemechanics and does not discribe "roleplaying" itself. most people get that wrong.

You're not being clear here. What's your point?
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probably better than you

Who knows? I don't know you, and you don;t know me. I am not trying to make this a competition, a challange of sorts perhaps for both of us, but not a competition as some might define it.
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"successfull" is btw a very strechable term. all i wrote was "your conversion rate will have a hard time with your target audience, if you plan to align your monetisation to MMOG mechanics" and thats true.

Conversion rate from my perspective equates to a measure of success of a given objective. If you reach your conversion rate it's a success, if not its not, at least in terms of the objective itself. You mention it will have a hard time, but fail to describe to me exactly why? It may be true but you haven't provided evidence of it. Please do.. again always open to new information to change my mind.
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there wont be any suprises here. from what they wrote you can expect something between the soft monetisation of LoL and the hard monetisation of designs with asian roots.

Maybe. Maybe not. Speculation. Educated or otherwise, it's nothing more. I just don't see the need to speculate when so little evidence has been provided by the company in question?

Edited by Dozer, 07 November 2011 - 07:23 AM.

[Dozer]

Bryan Ekman, on 07 November 2011 - 05:46 AM, said:

Before this goes sideways, please be mindful of each other's point of view. Perception is a tricky thing, opinions are explosive, and passion turns to hating pretty quickly. I respect everyone's comments and ask that all those participating in this thread and forum do the same.

Healthy debate equals a healthy mind, if that mind is willing to accept they could be wrong.

(There is probably a really good quote from someone far more eloquent than myself.)

I agree Brian but I don't see this as a debate. Debate typically engenders argument, that manifests polarisation of opinion. I prefer a meaningful dialogue. I quoted a lecturer of mine in another thread who once said 'debate escalates, dialogue informs'. I hold to that philosophy as best I can. I just hope others can too...

[Bryan Ekman]

Dozer, on 07 November 2011 - 07:02 AM, said:

I agree Brian but I don't see this as a debate. Debate typically engenders argument, that manifests polarisation of opinion. I prefer a meaningful dialogue. I quoted a lecturer of mine in another thread who once said 'debate escalates, dialogue informs'. I hold to that philosophy as best I can. I just hope others can too...

Pure wisdom.

[Threat Doc]

Bryan Ekman, on 06 November 2011 - 09:37 PM, said:

The article associate with this thread was written by myself. The interview was given by myself and Russ. My #1 challenge as this game's lead designer is to make sure the core experience is enjoyable and balanced.

I disagree that a subscription model equals a better or more level playing field. Anyone who drops a grand on a game will do so regardless. In a subscription based game, it usually takes the form of power leveling , buying in game cash, or ebayed items.

If you're willing to try MWO, I hope you'll be surprised. I think you'll happily invest your money, because it's going to be spent on things that make your playtime more fun/challenging/engaging.

And if you play it and find no enjoyment, MWO might just not be for you.. I'm cool with that.

I would advocate, and this is entirely from left-field, so bear with me, that you shut these forums down so people can get outgoing information, only. Too many arguments, here, enough to chase potential customers away, too much nay-saying, too many griefers, trolls, and argument hounds, even if they say they're not trying to argue, who will keep this community from growing due to their lack of ability to see the larger picture, to even think about the possibility of new ideas and any positive aspects they may bring.

Shut these forums against standard posting, then put out daily or weekly news bits, whatever your plan is, put out links to other articles across the internet, and let these people start and finish their arguments elsewhere. You don't have the staff to stop them from chasing away your future revenues, here, and on other forums, third-party forums, potential customers who have their heads screwed on straight will want to make sure what's being said around the internet is true before they turn down the possibility of playing this game. They're already talking about it on a dozen forums or more, so it's truly a bad idea to keep these open. You will always have 2+ sides to the argument, and the ones who want to cause problems will argue with all sides, just to be argumentative.

You guys have a great plan for MWO, and if you build it according to YOUR plan, whether they like it or not, they will come. Standard PC and console games typically have zero community input through forums, at least, and people purchase and play those games all the time. Having no input for this game will help you complete it more quickly, and will get the audience you're targeting on-board the moment it's released. Let these go, my son, hehe, and put your efforts into the game, instead. Thank you.

[Amarus Cameron]

Bryan Ekman, on 07 November 2011 - 05:56 AM, said:

Cheating is prevalent in many online games, subscription, free, and retail. Even console games have hackers and cheaters.

This is a hot topic for us. We're even rewriting how multiplayer is handled in the engine to help solve some of the common problems. Cheating is impossible to eliminate. All we can do is create systems that allow us to find and ban anyone taking advantage of hacks or loop holes. This includes patching, community policing, well written game code, IP bans, etc. Duke Nukem Forever had an aim bot within 24hrs of launch! So we're acutely aware of the problems and how to solve them.

As for commodities, if you have them, people will farm them. Humans are very industrious people after all! Rest assured, Paul hammers this home to me all the time. "Bryan we can't do x, because y will be farmed."

As I said...THE TEAM HAS SPOKEN *bows*...but in all seriousness thank you for taking the time to respond, it means a lot to a battletech nerd like myself. I just want to see this game rock like we all want it to, and in the same time I want to see the groups of individuals and groups of groups we have here catalyze into a glorious community dedicated to the Glory of the Clans....errrrmmm...sorry, I mean the Glory of Battletech!

So again, thank you for your comments, and please continue how you guys have been, you are winning more and more support with every post.

[Amarus Cameron]

kay wolf, on 07 November 2011 - 07:08 AM, said:

I would advocate, and this is entirely from left-field, so bear with me, that you shut these forums down so people can get outgoing information, only. Too many arguments, here, enough to chase potential customers away, too much nay-saying, too many griefers, trolls, and argument hounds, even if they say they're not trying to argue, who will keep this community from growing due to their lack of ability to see the larger picture, to even think about the possibility of new ideas and any positive aspects they may bring.

Shut these forums against standard posting, then put out daily or weekly news bits, whatever your plan is, put out links to other articles across the internet, and let these people start and finish their arguments elsewhere. You don't have the staff to stop them from chasing away your future revenues, here, and on other forums, third-party forums, potential customers who have their heads screwed on straight will want to make sure what's being said around the internet is true before they turn down the possibility of playing this game. They're already talking about it on a dozen forums or more, so it's truly a bad idea to keep these open. You will always have 2+ sides to the argument, and the ones who want to cause problems will argue with all sides, just to be argumentative.

You guys have a great plan for MWO, and if you build it according to YOUR plan, whether they like it or not, they will come. Standard PC and console games typically have zero community input through forums, at least, and people purchase and play those games all the time. Having no input for this game will help you complete it more quickly, and will get the audience you're targeting on-board the moment it's released. Let these go, my son, hehe, and put your efforts into the game, instead. Thank you.

While I understand and respect this post I must disagree.

1) It is the standard of the day to have the forums for a new game be open to the debate and discussion you already see.
2) The 'normal' and potential customers will not be here, as it is so far from launch any one not already in love with the game is not going to spend their time trawling through what is already a massive forum.
3) I am enjoying talking to all of you people

[Lio Lio]

dont really see the issue with Pay 2 Win. Let the skillless buy thier way to the top. Im sure you can use the revenue


*edit* forgot my smiley

Edited by Lio Lio, 07 November 2011 - 07:35 AM.

[Dozer]

kay wolf, on 07 November 2011 - 07:08 AM, said:

I would advocate, and this is entirely from left-field, so bear with me, that you shut these forums down so people can get outgoing information, only. Too many arguments, here, enough to chase potential customers away, too much nay-saying, too many griefers, trolls, and argument hounds, even if they say they're not trying to argue, who will keep this community from growing due to their lack of ability to see the larger picture, to even think about the possibility of new ideas and any positive aspects they may bring.

Shut these forums against standard posting, then put out daily or weekly news bits, whatever your plan is, put out links to other articles across the internet, and let these people start and finish their arguments elsewhere. You don't have the staff to stop them from chasing away your future revenues, here, and on other forums, third-party forums, potential customers who have their heads screwed on straight will want to make sure what's being said around the internet is true before they turn down the possibility of playing this game. They're already talking about it on a dozen forums or more, so it's truly a bad idea to keep these open. You will always have 2+ sides to the argument, and the ones who want to cause problems will argue with all sides, just to be argumentative.

You guys have a great plan for MWO, and if you build it according to YOUR plan, whether they like it or not, they will come. Standard PC and console games typically have zero community input through forums, at least, and people purchase and play those games all the time. Having no input for this game will help you complete it more quickly, and will get the audience you're targeting on-board the moment it's released. Let these go, my son, hehe, and put your efforts into the game, instead. Thank you.

I understand the premise as you explain it but would only say that the earlier you have the customer involved in the development process the greater the likelihood of producing something they value at the end. That means taking the good with the bad. The trick is to be able to sift the 'gold flakes from the stream'. Business 101 really.

[Lio Lio]

rollermint, on 04 November 2011 - 03:33 PM, said:

That sound alright, pretty good.

But we are going to wait to hear the exact details first though We still don't know what we can or can't buy with real money. Can we buy superior weapons? Superior armor? superior engines et c etc? The infamous "gold" ammo?

I hope thats not the case though. I don't mind buying certain special mechs with real money though, since no mechs are superior than every other mechs. Besides the Lowes and T59s of WOT doesn't seem to be that good, anyway. No, gold ammo or components. Please.

I do wish this game to be a huge success. I really do.

As a fellow WoT player I agree. I would hope there was "premium" mechs as well to help aleviate grind..depending on the how the grind works. Hell there might not even be a need for them..but still mediocre vanity mechs I think would be a good idea for Lols..like the Stock Charger and what not ( Id buy it..and I would play it too ) Once again, since i dont know what game play will be like, im on the fence for gold ammo/kits like in WoT..i like having them ability to use them in WoT and would support the ability to use them here ( note: the ability to use..ive never fired a gold round in WoT..just I dont rage about thier existance either )

[Threat Doc]

The problem, as I see it, Dozer, and I thoroughly respect your opinion, here, so don't think I'm just trying to wash it out, is that eight days ago, when this forum went live, there were many positive comments and ideas. The the closed-minded and/or argumentative trolls came in and started doing their normal dirty work. They're not trying to support ideas, and they're not attempting to have a meaningful dialogue because, the moment an individual jumps the shark in order to be accommodating, have a meaningful dialogue, or attempt to support the 'other' side of the argument, the trolls shift the argument, again. You know that saying the Department of Homeland Security has, "We have to be right all the time, the terrorists only need to be right once." ? Well, that applies to forum trolls and those who don't want to have a meaningful dialogue, they simply want to stir the pot; all they need to do is stir the pot a little bit, bait a few others toward their side of the argument, and voila, you have no meaningful discussion taking place. It happens to the most intelligent, well-meaning people on these forums, and it's really bad for potential future business. I've seen it before, that's why I raise the concern.

In just eight days, Dozer, I've had three conversations I was a part of and felt passionate about wiped out by trolls. Hopefully, this will not continue.

Edited by kay wolf, 07 November 2011 - 07:38 AM.

[Kyll Long]

Easier just to ignore the trolls who don't want to have an intelligent debate.

[Dozer]

kay wolf, on 07 November 2011 - 07:37 AM, said:

The problem, as I see it, Dozer, and I thoroughly respect your opinion, here, so don't think I'm just trying to wash it out, is that eight days ago, when this forum went live, there were many positive comments and ideas. The the closed-minded and/or argumentative trolls came in and started doing their normal dirty work. They're not trying to support ideas, and they're not attempting to have a meaningful dialogue because, the moment an individual jumps the shark in order to be accommodating, have a meaningful dialogue, or attempt to support the 'other' side of the argument, the trolls shift the argument, again. You know that saying the Department of Homeland Security has, "We have to be right all the time, the terrorists only need to be right once." ? Well, that applies to forum trolls and those who don't want to have a meaningful dialogue, they simply want to stir the pot; all they need to do is stir the pot a little bit, bait a few others toward their side of the argument, and voila, you have no meaningful discussion taking place. It happens to the most intelligent, well-meaning people on these forums, and it's really bad for potential future business. I've seen it before, that's why I raise the concern.

In just eight days, Dozer, I've had three conversations I was a part of and felt passionate about wiped out by trolls. Hopefully, this will not continue.

I completely understand. Hard to see the trees for the trolls I have faced as well and know the frustration all too well.

I tend to do as Kyll suggests most of the time. Ignore. And try and keep things on the thread on track, though that's pretty **** hard sometimes lol

Edited by Dozer, 07 November 2011 - 07:49 AM.

[Ashar]

As it seems many other people in this community are, I am an avid World of Tanks player. They have done a marvelous job with their gold (only bought with real money) system, with only a few exceptions: Gold ammo, consumables and (soon to be released) camouflage. Each of these has a non-gold counterpart, but they are not near the power of the gold types. Granted, it's not economical to use gold ammo in random matches, but they throw off the balance in competitive matches. Armor, which absolutely dictates how a tank performs in random matches, takes a back seat in competitive matches due to how good gold ammo is at piercing armor.

The rest of the gold system is great. All it does is basically lend convenience. Gold tanks offer a different play experience and greater credit income to speed a player's ability to generate credits, while actually being a tad bit inferior to "real" tanks. Premium does nothing but add to your out-of-battle experience (credit / experience income, ability to start certain stuff that even non-premium members can join, etc..). Conversion of experience earned on one tank (which can only be used on that tank) to free experience (which can be used on any tank) is genius, and has probably earned them the most income.

I highly recommend some of your developers to check out World of Tanks and take some notes along the way. Just PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't offer items that affect the game in-battle that can ONLY be bought with real money. This is the easiest way to seriously fubar the F2P model.

Also, watch this video, please :-)