87 replies to this topic

[Xandralkus]

Kobura, on 12 January 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

I don't know what the **** statistics they're looking at but it's a rare cold day in hell when I see fewer than 3-4 ECM on one side in an 8v8.

I know the Sharks consider it a necessity to swim no less than 2 Raven/Cicada 2 D-DC.

Oh, a nice side effect of this fuckery: When was the last time you saw an Atlas other than a D-DC? I killed a few RS (rapidly) a week ago or so. Haven't seen a K since ECM came out, literally not one. Not many D's other than Founders (including mine when I'm feeling lucky). Way to extinct the varied assault population...

Someone gets it!

Everything is experimented with heavily when it first launches, but it rapidly normalizes. ECM has normalized, and because it results in DISPROPORTIONATELY MASSIVE deviations in the usage of battlemech variants, we have a ruler by which to measure game balance.

Player preference is, in extremely large samples, a literal roll of the dice. People have different playstyles, and because of this, as the sample size approaches infinity, the deviations in mech variants approach zero. Just like when rolling a 6-sided die 120 trillion times, approximately 20 trillion of those rolls will be a 1, 20 trillion will be a two, and so on and so forth. With a sample size that amazingly massive, you are not going to have deviations of plus or minus millions, or thousands, or probably even hundreds - despite the occasional event where we roll a four 37 times in a row.

If the variants are balanced even slightly well (including their equipment, such as ECM), then we would see similar results - an even distribution of battlemechs across the servers as a whole, with the occasional wild variations inside smaller and smaller sample sets (such as individual matches).

However, this 51-sided die of battlemech variants has a disturbing tendency to predictably and reliably roll AS7-D-DC, CDA-3M, COM-2D, and RVN-3L. The chance of a player choosing any one of these four variants of the 51 available, assuming perfect variant balance, is 12.75%. However, in pure competitive play, the actual chance of one of these four of 51 available being chosen can be as high as 50% - on a predictable basis, not as an outliner.

Why does this 51-sided die have a tendency to roll AS7-D-DC, CDA-3M, COM-2D, and RVN-3L so frequently? Well, let's check and see if there is anything unique to that otherwise odd and seemingly random assortment of chassis...

...Oh, they have something in common after all. They are the only ones that mount ECM.

The devs' logic is bad. ECM use, just like stalker use, has already normalized. These are no longer curious newbies experimenting with the new crap, these are veterans trading in their crappy old mechs for shiny, better, more overpowered mechs with new overpowered gear.

ECM was not a fix to LRM free-reign indirect-fire bombardment and SSRM cheese builds. The solution never was to make them completely unusable, under ANY circumstances. Ever.

The solution to limitless application of LRM indirect fire was to apply a 50-70% missile spread penalty on any target that the firing mech does not have line of sight to.

The solution to LRM's being used in a direct-fire configuration with line of sight, where they can actually hurt things, was for the victim pilot to begin SHOOTING the LRM boats.

The solution to SSRM-heavy streakcats was to make them hit random body parts instead of CT always, and simultaneously NOT render non-streaks completely useless with insanely wide spread. An Artemis+SRM6 is currently lucky to hit with even half of the missiles at 200 meters. Non-Artemis SRM's should have a spread slightly tighter than the LBX-10 Autocannon. Artemis SRM's should be able to nail lights and mediums on 2-3 body parts from 250 meters all day long.

Devs, go ahead, I dare you. Make ECM mountable on every mech variant in existence, just for one week. Just for testing purposes. See if it passes the balance check of "Can a competent build exist without it?" I guarantee you, the answer would be a resounding "No." ECM would be more overused than AMS, back in the days of LRMwarrior Online. We ALL know the only reason it is not like that, right now, is because it's arbitrarily restricted to four mechs. Four mechs, now overused.

Edited by Xandralkus, 12 January 2013 - 08:18 PM.

[Kobura]

I wish your post was on someone's famous's topic so it'd get seen.

[Regrets]

Ok guys. Something has to be done about the light queue.

Light queue is just total weaksauce. I'm leveling my mandos (obv so i can have speed tweak ECMando. The problem is not so much ECM itself, as the queue. Lets take a look at this:
- LIght Queue: Quite frankly, it is ECM or die. An ECM scout >>>>>>>>>> non-ECM scout. I do wayyy more damage with ECM than without (since I am dead without it). There is literally very very little sacrifice made for ECM. Want EndoSteel and XL engine with ECM? No problem. Want FF without, well you can probably make a build with FF, but you only gain ~.5 tons and will be very very limited in Criticals. To boot, Raven is top end of Light weights, so that is why 50%+ light queuers are ECM Ravens. There is no disavantage. In fact, ECM Ravens have very close to the top speed of any mech in the game (like .5kph more than mando and 5kph less than Jenner), can pack more weaponry than a mando, has more armor, QQQQQQQQ.
- Med Queue: Cicada is an inferior firepower to other mechs in its class. Inferior with the exception of ECM. Limited hardpoint selection on 3M Cicada. No lol SSRM+ECM = GG lights and problems for Mediums.
- Heavy Queue: N/A
- Assault Queue: DC Atlas, a nice array of weaponry, but nothing you can't find somewhere else. Also most Assaults have a more specialized set of Hardpoints. You cannot stack 6 LL, SRM30, LRM80, or 2 AC20 on a DC. This is really not as big a problems if you ask me.

Proposal: Some combination of the following:
- Nerf the max speed of the 'problem' ECM variants. The fastest Raven variant is also the one with ECM? It is almost like you want the 3L to be OP and the rest to suck.
- Nerf the number of criticals for ECM, so there is sacrifice made to put ECM on a mech. Currently it is all plus and only 1.5 ton minus. I don't know, make it like 7 criticals but leave at 1.5 tons. Now you are making choices. Do you want DHS or ECM? Do you want ES or ECM? Now the ECM mech is no longer strictly superior.
- Buff non-ECM variants. I can tell you for sure every non-ECM mando sucks terrible. See above max speed problem for Raven. You really can't see how this is IMBA? These other variants are by definition strictly worse!!!!!!!!!
- Make it where Friendlies cannot target within the bubble. Oh wow, now there will be no ECM LRM spotter, and ECM+Streak will be worthless!!!

PGI, please do something. I know this is still 'beta,' but this is obviously broke game play. People will not play competitively if their are hudge imbalances.

Edited by Regrets, 13 January 2013 - 08:24 AM.

[MWHawke]

Make it so that lights can be hit by direct fire weapons without having to aim lasers 3 mech lengths away and all the problems about ECM goes away.

And before anyone says it, I play an ECM Raven, multiple variant Catapults and multiple variant Phracts. I use whichever mech is appropriate according to the lance that I am dropping with. So, I have fought against ECM lights in another ECM light, and I have fought against ECM lights in heavy mechs. I do NOT solely pilot ECM Ravens.

It is just ridiculous that you have to aim 3 mech lengths away with a weapon that is supposed to travel the speed of light.

[Revo13]

Regrets, on 13 January 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

Ok guys. Something has to be done about the light queue.

Light queue is just total weaksauce. I'm leveling my mandos (obv so i can have speed tweak ECMando. The problem is not so much ECM itself, as the queue. Lets take a look at this:
- LIght Queue: Quite frankly, it is ECM or die. An ECM scout >>>>>>>>>> non-ECM scout. I do wayyy more damage with ECM than without (since I am dead without it). There is literally very very little sacrifice made for ECM. Want EndoSteel and XL engine with ECM? No problem. Want FF without, well you can probably make a build with FF, but you only gain ~.5 tons and will be very very limited in Criticals. To boot, Raven is top end of Light weights, so that is why 50%+ light queuers are ECM Ravens. There is no disavantage. In fact, ECM Ravens have very close to the top speed of any mech in the game (like .5kph more than mando and 5kph less than Jenner), can pack more weaponry than a mando, has more armor, QQQQQQQQ.
- Med Queue: Cicada is an inferior firepower to other mechs in its class. Inferior with the exception of ECM. Limited hardpoint selection on 3M Cicada. No lol SSRM+ECM = GG lights and problems for Mediums.
- Heavy Queue: N/A
- Assault Queue: DC Atlas, a nice array of weaponry, but nothing you can't find somewhere else. Also most Assaults have a more specialized set of Hardpoints. You cannot stack 6 LL, SRM30, LRM80, or 2 AC20 on a DC. This is really not as big a problems if you ask me.

Proposal: Some combination of the following:
- Nerf the max speed of the 'problem' ECM variants. The fastest Raven variant is also the one with ECM? It is almost like you want the 3L to be OP and the rest to suck.
- Nerf the number of criticals for ECM, so there is sacrifice made to put ECM on a mech. Currently it is all plus and only 1.5 ton minus. I don't know, make it like 7 criticals but leave at 1.5 tons. Now you are making choices. Do you want DHS or ECM? Do you want ES or ECM? Now the ECM mech is no longer strictly superior.
- Buff non-ECM variants. I can tell you for sure every non-ECM mando sucks terrible. See above max speed problem for Raven. You really can't see how this is IMBA? These other variants are by definition strictly worse!!!!!!!!!
- Make it where Friendlies cannot target within the bubble. Oh wow, now there will be no ECM LRM spotter, and ECM+Streak will be worthless!!!

PGI, please do something. I know this is still 'beta,' but this is obviously broke game play. People will not play competitively if their are hudge imbalances.

Admit it, you are a horrible player. ECM is not a problem, you just don't know how to play the game like a pro. I've never had a problem leveling my non-ECM lights, It was actually more fun to rip arms from Dragons at 650 meters with my Raven 2X than playing anything with my Raven 3L.

If you don't like how MechWarrior is setup, reference Sarna.net, then delete the game and buy an XBox so you can play Call of Duty: Black Ops 2 and be a raging K/D-R phreak.

/endinfantilernatsaboutECM

[Revo13]

Kobura, on 12 January 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

I don't know what the **** statistics they're looking at but it's a rare cold day in hell when I see fewer than 3-4 ECM on one side in an 8v8.

I know the Sharks consider it a necessity to swim no less than 2 Raven/Cicada 2 D-DC.

Oh, a nice side effect of this fuckery: When was the last time you saw an Atlas other than a D-DC? I killed a few RS (rapidly) a week ago or so. Haven't seen a K since ECM came out, literally not one. Not many D's other than Founders (including mine when I'm feeling lucky). Way to extinct the varied assault population...

I was in an 8v8 the other day, 2 D-DC, 2 3L, 1 3M, the rest were NON-ECM FATLAS!

The do have an application if you are a competent pilot. Most people think they are invincible in a D-DC Fatlas ... which is perfect for my Assault-Killing-2X. Overconfidence is a weakness I exploit, daily.

Practice more, you will get better eventually.

Xandralkus, on 12 January 2013 - 08:14 PM, said:

Someone gets it!

Everything is experimented with heavily when it first launches, but it rapidly normalizes. ECM has normalized, and because it results in DISPROPORTIONATELY MASSIVE deviations in the usage of battlemech variants, we have a ruler by which to measure game balance.

Player preference is, in extremely large samples, a literal roll of the dice. People have different playstyles, and because of this, as the sample size approaches infinity, the deviations in mech variants approach zero. Just like when rolling a 6-sided die 120 trillion times, approximately 20 trillion of those rolls will be a 1, 20 trillion will be a two, and so on and so forth. With a sample size that amazingly massive, you are not going to have deviations of plus or minus millions, or thousands, or probably even hundreds - despite the occasional event where we roll a four 37 times in a row.

If the variants are balanced even slightly well (including their equipment, such as ECM), then we would see similar results - an even distribution of battlemechs across the servers as a whole, with the occasional wild variations inside smaller and smaller sample sets (such as individual matches).

However, this 51-sided die of battlemech variants has a disturbing tendency to predictably and reliably roll AS7-D-DC, CDA-3M, COM-2D, and RVN-3L. The chance of a player choosing any one of these four variants of the 51 available, assuming perfect variant balance, is 12.75%. However, in pure competitive play, the actual chance of one of these four of 51 available being chosen can be as high as 50% - on a predictable basis, not as an outliner.

Why does this 51-sided die have a tendency to roll AS7-D-DC, CDA-3M, COM-2D, and RVN-3L so frequently? Well, let's check and see if there is anything unique to that otherwise odd and seemingly random assortment of chassis...

...Oh, they have something in common after all. They are the only ones that mount ECM.

The devs' logic is bad. ECM use, just like stalker use, has already normalized. These are no longer curious newbies experimenting with the new crap, these are veterans trading in their crappy old mechs for shiny, better, more overpowered mechs with new overpowered gear.

ECM was not a fix to LRM free-reign indirect-fire bombardment and SSRM cheese builds. The solution never was to make them completely unusable, under ANY circumstances. Ever.

The solution to limitless application of LRM indirect fire was to apply a 50-70% missile spread penalty on any target that the firing mech does not have line of sight to.

The solution to LRM's being used in a direct-fire configuration with line of sight, where they can actually hurt things, was for the victim pilot to begin SHOOTING the LRM boats.

The solution to SSRM-heavy streakcats was to make them hit random body parts instead of CT always, and simultaneously NOT render non-streaks completely useless with insanely wide spread. An Artemis+SRM6 is currently lucky to hit with even half of the missiles at 200 meters. Non-Artemis SRM's should have a spread slightly tighter than the LBX-10 Autocannon. Artemis SRM's should be able to nail lights and mediums on 2-3 body parts from 250 meters all day long.

Devs, go ahead, I dare you. Make ECM mountable on every mech variant in existence, just for one week. Just for testing purposes. See if it passes the balance check of "Can a competent build exist without it?" I guarantee you, the answer would be a resounding "No." ECM would be more overused than AMS, back in the days of LRMwarrior Online. We ALL know the only reason it is not like that, right now, is because it's arbitrarily restricted to four mechs. Four mechs, now overused.

Without ECM people will only run missile boats, again. If you know what you are doing and your Lance Mates know how to pilot their mechs then all is well. If not ... then we will continue getting posts about how someone wants to nerf the game so they can play with zero skill.

As stated before, in one of the numerous threads about baby-whining-crying-ECM-makes-me-suxor, why don't we all run around on a map with no terrain, clear vision, omni-mechs, with infinite armour, no heat at all (because heat-sinks just get in the way) and unlimited speed?

/endstupidthreadsandbellyachingpracticemoreyouwillgetbettereventually

[Regrets]

Revo13, on 13 January 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

Admit it, you are a horrible player. ECM is not a problem, you just don't know how to play the game like a pro. I've never had a problem leveling my non-ECM lights, It was actually more fun to rip arms from Dragons at 650 meters with my Raven 2X than playing anything with my Raven 3L.

If you don't like how MechWarrior is setup, reference Sarna.net, then delete the game and buy an XBox so you can play Call of Duty: Black Ops 2 and be a raging K/D-R phreak.

/endinfantilernatsaboutECM

Have you leveled a Commando? What would you say the advantages of the Commando are?

[Revo13]

Regrets, on 13 January 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

Have you leveled a Commando? What would you say the advantages of the Commando are?

I have, sold it for a Raven.

=/

As much as I like the Commando, this is a game of numbers, the Raven's numbers a better. In short, the disadvantages of the Commando is that it is not a Raven.

Numbers don't lie.

[Khan Hallis]

Revo13, on 13 January 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

...Without ECM people will only run missile boats, again. If you know what you are doing and your Lance Mates know how to pilot their mechs then all is well. If not ... then we will continue getting posts about how someone wants to nerf the game so they can play with zero skill. ...

And until something is done to correct it all we are going to continue seeing is people with zero skill, not all of the players using ECM just a good portion of them, abusing a broken aspect of the game so that they can look good and improve their worthless KD ratios and other nearly meaningless stats. So sounds like a lose-lose keeping ECM as is, or removing it from the game.

The real win-win is to properly restore it's balance so it isn't the be all end all that it currently is.

[Termius]

MasterBLB, on 09 January 2013 - 01:43 AM, said:

LRM boats are still useable if they are equipped with TAG,but chassises what can't take it (like cat A1) are in real troubles.
Same for streak users,but they are affected much more due to fact they are catched inside ECM bubble a way more often,and in that conditions TAG is useless.

Thats why I run a Stalker 5M LRM boat. It tears all the little ECM atlas's to shreds

[Aleric]

Ok been reading the posts and it seems like a simple fix would be to increase the time it takes to lock onto a mech with an ECM. In other words an ECM is meant to scramble the signals coming in so that a complete lock on is not possible. Increase the lock on time dependent on how far the LRM is to the target. Add one to two seconds for every 100 feet back the LRM is from its target. That way the ECM is not OP and the LRM still have a way to deal damage. Its a non complicated way to even out the problem.

[StalaggtIKE]

Revo13, on 13 January 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

I was in an 8v8 the other day, 2 D-DC, 2 3L, 1 3M, the rest were NON-ECM FATLAS!
The do have an application if you are a competent pilot. Most people think they are invincible in a D-DC Fatlas ... which is perfect for my Assault-Killing-2X. Overconfidence is a weakness I exploit, daily.
Practice more, you will get better eventually.

So, a group of 8 guys drop together, probably full aware of each chassis that would be piloted. With the cover of five.., yes, five ECM mechs, they felt they could take the risk to play some other chassis. And someone how this is proof that non ECM mechs are just as viable as the rest. Is this some kind of joke?

Quote

Without ECM people will only run missile boats, again. If you know what you are doing and your Lance Mates know how to pilot their mechs then all is well. If not ... then we will continue getting posts about how someone wants to nerf the game so they can play with zero skill.

Kind of ironic for someone to tell someone to learn how to play, then whine about missile boats...., PLEASE.

[Capt Cole 117]

ECM is op, thats why I use it every match.

[focuspark]

I've been saying this for some time: ECM should only affect 'mechs within its 180m radius. 'mechs outside that radius should not be impacted, including being able to offer LOS to the ECM 'mech for allied LRM support.

The fact that ECM disrupts electronic anywhere on the battlefield and not just those caught with in its area of effect [AOE] is the problem with ECM currently.

ECM should not prevent lock-on to any 'mech outside the ECM AOE.
ECM should not hide 'mechs from the radar or map
ECM should not hide 'mechs from BAP unless it is inside the ECM AOE.
ECM should not hide the friend/foe identifiers

ECM should disable BAP when it's inside the ECM AOE
ECM should disable Artemis when the target is inside the ECM AOE
ECM should disable NARC when it's inside the ECM AOE
ECM should prevent 'mechs inside the ECM AOE from sharing targeting data
ECM should prevent 'mechs inside the ECM AOE from determining weapon loadout of other 'mechs
ECM should prevent 'mechs inside the ECM AOE from determining damage levels of other 'mechs

I'd even accept ECM reducing the number of LRMs that successfully connect with their target when the target is within the ECM AOE.

[Regrets]

Revo13, on 13 January 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

I have, sold it for a Raven.

=/

As much as I like the Commando, this is a game of numbers, the Raven's numbers a better. In short, the disadvantages of the Commando is that it is not a Raven.

Numbers don't lie.

Before I should uninstall cause the problems not with the mando, now you agree the Raven is better? Admit it you are just flaming people that want to nerf your imba mech. I think ECM is part of the problem, but lots of it is the Raven. Don't worry tho, I didn't take it personally.

[MWHawke]

focuspark, on 13 January 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

ECM should not prevent lock-on to any 'mech outside the ECM AOE.
If a mech is outside ECM AOE, it is not under the coverage and so this does not happen right?

ECM should not hide 'mechs from the radar or map
I feel there should be some form of chaff due to the effect of ECM blocking radar returns.

ECM should not hide the friend/foe identifiers
Whole area of ECM has no returns due to the nature of ECM. Not too sure how it affects friendly radars.

Some suggestions.

[Alaric the Arcane]

Xandralkus, on 08 January 2013 - 10:48 PM, said:

I can push a button and become completely and totally immune to LRM's.

And I can push a button to light you up with TAG and proceed to melt all of the armor off of your ECM D-DC.

[Asmudius Heng]

Syllogy, on 10 January 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

Garth confirmed yesterday that no ECM changes are on the books for now.

His reasoning behind this was sound:

Despite the extremely vocal posts on the forums, ECM is still only averages 1-2 per team in PUG matches, and only 3-4 per team in 8v8 matches, with declining numbers every week.

If ECM was truly overpowered, those numbers would be at least doubled.

If i was not grinding various variants I would be running ECM a lot more.

It was not fun ginding those other ravens at all but i did it so my ECM variant would be more powerful.

The developers have a way that makes people not take the ECM mechs - but this does not mean it is good or fun.

As for 8 vs 8 taking HALF THIER TEAM of ECM ... yes obviously thats balanced /sarcasm

As the days go by the newbies will find ECM and realise it is what to take, the others will have ground out their variants and will go back to their mainstay ECM mech.

If ECM was balanced there should be plenty of games that had NO ECM beccause it is not an ESSENTIAL item and no one would feel cheated because they were missing ECM.

I do not care if no one takes BAP - but i do care when we do not have some ECM. Maths be damned this is common sense.

[White Bear 84]

What makes ECM OP:
- No tripping for light mechs
- Mounted on light mechs with capability to boat streaks
- Taking the above into account, nullifies LRMS and STREAKS
- No limit on drops e.g. can have a 8 V 0 ECM team.. ..EXACTLY!
- LAG.. ..LAG... LAG...

I actually find that on the Atlas its not so bad (remember you can still manually fire without a lock), but on lights at the moment its pretty stupid and i own an ECM Atlas, Raven and Commando.

[StalaggtIKE]

My favorite part is when an ECM heavy team gets mad when you defeat them in a base capture. Just in a game, where we couldn't find the enemy team, over half of them had ecm. Of course they whined about our base capture. I say if you intend to fight, then don't hide.