97 replies to this topic

[Eddrick]

I personaly, don't have a problem with ECM. But, it's my own point of view. My favorite weapon is the PPC (Which isn't effected by ECM) and I don't rely on radar or target locks.

Light Mechs are a differant story. It has much more to do with the fact I get less then 10 frams per second. I never get more get more then 100ms latencey. So, lag shouldn't be an issue. As my shoting skill inproves, I shouldn't have to much truble hitting Light Mechs, when I get a better computer. I'm not sure about the "Lag Shield". I can't really trace something moving that fast at close range with less then 10 frames per second. So, I don't bother right now. I just lead them to the rest of my team.

Out of the list of Mechs used. I see mostly the Stalker (Atleast, one in almost ever match). The rest are less common. In order: Raven, Atlas, and the others are very uncommen.

[Umbra8]

The only thing they need to do (and should have done in the first place) is use the TT definition of Guardian ECM (citation: http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite ), countering Artemis, C3, C3i, Narc and BAP only within a 180 meter bubble. No stealth, no long range detection issues, just screws up advanced electronic systems at short range. That ability is worth its current weight and crit allotment.

​The one accommodation I would make to transition from TT to a real-time sim is how guided ordinance is handled in this game, as that varies quite significantly from TT. If they feel they needed to mitigate the strength of missiles simply have guided ordinance lose tracking once the missiles themselves entered the 180 meter jamming bubble. They would just continue to move on their last trajectory until they hit something, left the 180 meter jamming bubble, or reached their range limit and detonated. That would offer a strong but not invincible defence against guided ordinance that still punishes stupid play (if you're dumb enough not to move you'll get hit anyway), doesn't invalidate an entire class of weapons system on the other team and meshes well with the TT definition of ECM.

Once that system has been introduced, then you can come in later and introduce Angel ECM or the Stealth Armour addon (citation: http://www.sarna.net...i/Stealth_Armor ). If people then want to remain undetectable at range they can add that to their mech to get it, assuming they're willing to give up the 12 additional crit slots and 10 heat while its active in order to do so (yeah, that's how powerful stealth was considered in TT).

Breaking up the ECM variant packages in this way would add more diversity to the game while including necessary drawbacks to maintain balance all while being true to cannon. Why they chose to introduce it in such a heavy handed one-size-does-all fashion that is so divergent from their stated commitment to remain as true to TT as possible is beyond me.

Edited by Umbra8, 12 January 2013 - 05:57 PM.

[Liam Neeson]

This.

ltwally, on 09 January 2013 - 10:04 PM, said:

This is actually pretty simple. Fix all of Information Warfare in one sweep, as follows:

• Upgrade Beagle to be more effective. (Half of what it does for TT simply does not translate into MW:O). It should generate noticeable improvements on sensor range, and allow sensors to "see around corners". This would turn it into a scout tool for MW:O like it is in TT. Limit Beagle to scout mechs (light mechs + Cicada), as it is a scout tool and should be constrained to scout mechs.
  
• Upgrade NARC to be more effective. It needs to last substantially longer. (In TT, it lasts for the duration of the battle, though this might be over-powered in MW:O.) Also, it needs to broadcast so that friendlies can use it for targeting data, even if no friendlies have Line-of-Sight.
  
• ECM should counter Artemis, Beagle and Narc. It should have no effect on other sensors. Open ECM up to all mechs.

Implement those 3 things. Test it for a month or so. Adjust as necessary. I'd bet good money that few adjustments would need to be made; once Beagle and Narc are actually worth using, then having ECM only counter them makes it worthwhile.

Also, maybe keep the missile shield for the individual mech, and make ams more effective against missle floods to balance the weight for weight.

[Abivard]

Every time someone posts a wall of text someone else comes along and says its well thought out. No it isn't, it is just a lot of words that don't make any sense.

[Valaska]

This is not going to be liked, and I am not being completely serious but I am trying to show how grave this issue really is;

Make ECM a destroyable component on any death, and need to be repurchased. Ramp the cost up to 2,000,000 CBills, and release some modules to counter the effects of ECM.

This would in turn destroy and remove ECM from the game more or less, allowing us to go back into a state of when the game was played more, and by more people.

[healybob]

The problem with ECM right now, as a player is that is has significantly reduced the fun level of the game if you do not have ECM.

The problem with it from a Battletech and Mechwarrior point of view, and it's current implementation strait out of Total Warfare, is that it only affects Active Probes, Artemis, Narc, and C3/C3i systems. It is NOT intended to affect LRM and SRM/SSRM lock.

The above makes sense, since, the main problem with ECM from a balance point is that it completely nullifies one weapon system family which makes certain chassis hilariously disadvantaged and even useless.

[Valaska]

Abivard, on 12 January 2013 - 11:35 PM, said:

Every time someone posts a wall of text someone else comes along and says its well thought out. No it isn't, it is just a lot of words that don't make any sense.

Everytime someone is too stupid to understand something, they say something like this.

[GalaxyBluestar]

sorry to barge in on this discussion but it kinda reads like the couple hundred we've had over the last month so... makes me think nothing's going to change. now carry on and continue these threads for another month or so, we hope something happens well before then.

[Jesus Box]

I'm rubber, LRM Carrier, and you are glue.
Next patch, they'll bounce right off me, and stick to you.
But today, you can't lock me, so fantastic, I must say.
You can't fire your missiles at me. Just leave me be.
Today is a rainy day, just go away.
Put your missiles away, for another day.
But don't worry glue, I'll play a violin for you.
*gets violin and plays theme from Angel*

Edited by Jesus Box, 13 January 2013 - 06:55 AM.

[Abivard]

ECM is culling the herd, those who can't learn die lol

[Big Bad Wulf]

Valaska, on 12 January 2013 - 11:36 PM, said:

This is not going to be liked, and I am not being completely serious but I am trying to show how grave this issue really is;

Make ECM a destroyable component on any death, and need to be repurchased. Ramp the cost up to 2,000,000 CBills, and release some modules to counter the effects of ECM.

This would in turn destroy and remove ECM from the game more or less, allowing us to go back into a state of when the game was played more, and by more people.

Yes and return to LRM Spamming or Streaks Galore... this is what all of you want to be able to LRM spam and use Streak SRM's and with the Stalker's ability to carry missile packages... you get my drift.

Lets be honest the "balance" everyone is asking about is really "skew it back to my play style", which is sitback lock and fire.

Because right now if you want to play missile boat you have to work at it (with TAG) or ask your dropmates to Counter the ECM, Kill the ECM mech (Coordination and Teamwork), just like everybody else. That to me is balance.


Fast light mechs have always been a problem with or without ECM. That is a networking issue which I am hoping they will continue to address.

Limiting the type of mech in a drop is stupid - I should be free to drop with whatever Mech choose to drop with and not be excluded because of equipment.

[CECILOFS]

Marcus Wulf, on 13 January 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

Lets be honest the "balance" everyone is asking about is really "skew it back to my play style", which is sitback lock and fire.

Because right now if you want to play missile boat you have to work at it (with TAG) or ask your dropmates to Counter the ECM, Kill the ECM mech (Coordination and Teamwork), just like everybody else. That to me is balance.

Why can't we have both playstyles like we had before ECM and are supposed to have? LRMs have massive drawbacks to balance their damage. They also have counters just like you are arguing for ECM: Using cover, team tactics such as flanking the missile boats and getting into brawling range.

I agree that the ECM stealth bubble is over the top. Atlas shouldn't just pop up out of nowhere like that and getting pecked to death by murders of Ravens is getting old

[Sandslice]

healybob, on 12 January 2013 - 11:42 PM, said:

The problem with ECM right now, as a player is that is has significantly reduced the fun level of the game if you do not have ECM.

The problem with it from a Battletech and Mechwarrior point of view, and it's current implementation strait out of Total Warfare, is that it only affects Active Probes, Artemis, Narc, and C3/C3i systems. It is NOT intended to affect LRM and SRM/SSRM lock.

The above makes sense, since, the main problem with ECM from a balance point is that it completely nullifies one weapon system family which makes certain chassis hilariously disadvantaged and even useless.

Funny (funny-sad, not funny ha-ha) thing about this: MWO ECM is intended to affect LRM and SSRM, very deliberately. This means that it gets to be:
-Guardian ECM that also prevents BAP from noticing ECM sooner than anyone else
-A stealth system (like cammy, null-sig, stealth armour, void-sig) without the heat penalties of those systems
-A missile-targeting shield, whose effects on Streak launchers exceed those of Angel ECM.

Meanwhile, currently:
-TAG, the designated counter to ECM, requires an energy hardpoint, continual hit-scanning, and staying out of any ECM bubbles;
-Narc Missile Beacon requires a missile hardpoint, and the missile carriers must have direct line of sight to the target --- and, as usual, it's hard-countered by ECM;
-BAP, just like regular "sensors," still requires front-arc direct line of sight; it cannot tell it's being jammed at longer range than regular "sensors;" it does not expand the magical 180-200m ring at which ECM function is minimised; and unlike ECM, it does not gain any of the improved functions from the Bloodhound probe. Instead, it gets an improvement to missile lock speed that other Mechwarrior games assign to Artemis. But hey, at least it doesn't need a hardpoint.

[StalaggtIKE]

Marcus Wulf, on 13 January 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

Yes and return to LRM Spamming or Streaks Galore... this is what all of you want to be able to LRM spam and use Streak SRM's and with the Stalker's ability to carry missile packages... you get my drift.

Lets be honest the "balance" everyone is asking about is really "skew it back to my play style", which is sitback lock and fire.

That's so far from the truth, at least for me. In fact, given the current state of ECM, I would prefer if TAG became a necessary component to fire any form of guided missiles. I hate the fact that ECM is a hardcounter to missiles. Why? Because in games of ECM teams vs non-ECM teams, it allows the advantage of indirect weapons for the ECM team. So basically it's saying one side can use LRM, but the other can not (unless they're willing to jump through hoops). Next of all, and this is what affects me personally, is the fact ECM "kills" info sharing through stealth. If I have LOS of a target it's stupid that I can not target him and gather info. I am fine if I suffer a penalty while within the 180m bubble. However, if someone is running off in the open, I should be able to gather intel on weapons, armor and damage. Not just have him be some kind of stealth ghost. If PGI want stealth use the proper technology, that comes with pros and cons: stealth armor and null signature.

Quote

Because right now if you want to play missile boat you have to work at it (with TAG) or ask your dropmates to Counter the ECM, Kill the ECM mech (Coordination and Teamwork), just like everybody else. That to me is balance.

If it is one thing I like about ECM, is the fact that the missile boat trend has died. However, ECM is only a band-aid. All ECM has done is killed the trend, not solved the problem. No ECM on the field the game plays just like before. Both ECM and LRM should be addressed separately.

Quote

Fast light mechs have always been a problem with or without ECM. That is a networking issue which I am hoping they will continue to address.

I try to look at this sepreatly from ECM. I hope to see a fix soon, however I believe the limitation has more to do with the CryEngine. So, I am a bit skeptical. In the mean time I am glad there are SSRM and lights to engage them.

Quote

Limiting the type of mech in a drop is stupid - I should be free to drop with whatever Mech choose to drop with and not be excluded because of equipment.

I totally agree.

[Sesambrot]

I could write a lengthy post about this myself, but I'll try to keep it short.
The way ECM works and it strengths seem about right currently. I will not deny that with the implementation of ECM several weapons have become very rare and you end up in several matches where about every mech has ECM, or is at least capable of mounting it.
I think the problem is simply that the ONLY counter to ECM is ECM itself.
While this is actually a realistic approach, I think it was a poor balancedecision, and here's why:

In order to deal with it, you need to have it, so if you want to deal with it, you're forced into one of the few chassis that can mount it, thus severely limitting your choices in every way.
I think one way to alleviate the issue without changing ECM itself too much would be to give people an alternative.
For example, think of BAP as "advanced Sensors". If BAP neutralized, or at least mitigated the effects of ECM (only) for the mech mounting it, it would probably help a great deal! It's still a bit of a problem that ECM renders LRMS and SSRMs absolutely useless, but at least a scout equipped with BAP could properly spot targets again without having to be a Raven...

[StalaggtIKE]

Sesambrot, on 13 January 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

The way ECM works and it strengths seem about right currently....

I think one way to alleviate the issue without changing ECM itself too much would be to give people an alternative.
For example, think of BAP as "advanced Sensors". If BAP neutralized, or at least mitigated the effects of ECM (only) for the mech mounting it, it would probably help a great deal! It's still a bit of a problem that ECM renders LRMS and SSRMs absolutely useless, but at least a scout equipped with BAP could properly spot targets again without having to be a Raven...

You state that ECM seems about right, and you feel that BAP should be its counter. Well shouldn't BAP give all allies within the area a detection bonus?

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 13 January 2013 - 12:43 PM.

[Ornus]

Reduce ECM effectiveness using one or more of the following:

• increase space required to mount
  
• increase tonnage
  
• increase cost
  
• require pilot module to mount
  
• when active results in heat generation
  
• only protects equipped Mech

Increase BAP effectiveness with one or more of the following

• reduces effectiveness of ECM carried by enemy Mech within front arc by 50%
  
• increase sensor range by 25%

[Jungle Rhino]

Here is the only test you ever need to determine if ECM is OP.

If every mech in the game could slot it would they?

Answers on the back of a postcard to PGI studios please.

[Asmudius Heng]

No no no no - the devs have thought this out very, very well.

Garth (I think) stated in maybe an NGNG podcast or an interview somewhere that they were hoping people would wise up and learn to dumb fire LRMs on targets.

The simplicity of the solution. All this time I thought I had to get a missile lock! We are all so silly for not thinking that LRMs could just be used as dumb fire direct weapons.

See - more counters to ECM there are so many it is hard to believe.

I think we need to see a video of the developers using this tactic and proving to us that LRMs are super cool dumb fired and ECM is actually really, really balanced.

[Valaska]

Marcus Wulf, on 13 January 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

Yes and return to LRM Spamming or Streaks Galore... this is what all of you want to be able to LRM spam and use Streak SRM's and with the Stalker's ability to carry missile packages... you get my drift.

Lets be honest the "balance" everyone is asking about is really "skew it back to my play style", which is sitback lock and fire.

Because right now if you want to play missile boat you have to work at it (with TAG) or ask your dropmates to Counter the ECM, Kill the ECM mech (Coordination and Teamwork), just like everybody else. That to me is balance.


Fast light mechs have always been a problem with or without ECM. That is a networking issue which I am hoping they will continue to address.

Limiting the type of mech in a drop is stupid - I should be free to drop with whatever Mech choose to drop with and not be excluded because of equipment.

Well hold on just a minute, in the patch before ECM, missiles actually fell into the same roll they were before they were spammed, being that they were there but not an overpowering force. There were boats,sure, but if you couldn't deal with the watered down version of those it -was- just a failing in tactics. SSRM's were a problem, in a way. You could always shut down to break lock, that's what I did as a Jenner Pilot.

And my apologies but you're sorely mistaken, not more than three of my load outs actually sport missiles in any hardpoint. Though I suppose my Dragon which had a Guass Rifle, Three Medium Lasers did have two SSRM with one ton of ammo to deal with lights, that's hardly boating.

No, in fact the reason I dislike ECM is one of your stated points my good sir. I am now forced to pilot only mechs that have ECM. In simple terms, if I don't pilot a mech with ECM I am screwing myself, and my team over. Right now if you want to even pilot a missile boat, you can't work at it because TAG is a bag of dicks as a counter to ECM, BAP is a joke, and there is every single counter to LRM's that existed before plus an impunity to locks.

There is even data proving that a team fully fitted every mech with ECM has a 4x more likely chance to win, at this point its gotten ridiculous. Your idea of diversity is a very funny one indeed.

Abivard, on 13 January 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:

ECM is culling the herd, those who can't learn die lol

No, no we all understand perfectly well. Pilot something that has ECM, bottom line. There;s no learning to this, ECM has actually dumbed MechWarrior down to the level of Mech Assault, actually both of your posts in this topic really are denotative that you've the intellect of a Mech Assault fan... Hm...