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Ecm Isn't Broken, But...

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#81 Gremlich Johns

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 01:53 PM

View PostShdwWraith, on 14 January 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

Didn't read all the posts, so might have missed if this was suggested already...

Why does ECM affect TAG? TAG uses an infra-red laser to paint targets, which an ECM can't jam.


An infra-red beam is not a laser and a laser is not infra-red.

An infra-red beam is a focused pink light which is reflected from a target. It does NOT give you range data, it only illuminates it so you can see it with infra-red capable optical devices (like NODs). An infra-red tracker guides an infra-red guided missile (Like the shillelagh missile on the M551 and M60A2) Again, like ECM, I have actually used such devices.

But it is not a laser. And ECM cannot jam it because it illuminates the WHOLE target, like a flashlight or searchlight. In this, you are correct. If the target puts out an IR signature, you will see it with the night vision option.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 15 January 2013 - 01:55 PM.


#82 StalaggtIKE

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 02:04 PM

View PostSesambrot, on 15 January 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

Now you're blaming me for my first sentence, in a topic that begins with the words: "ECM isn't broken"... ;)
In fact, I don't think ECM itself is the problem, but the fact that whoever makes balancedecisions around here has no freakin' idea about it.
See, I'm not being catious, just saying what I think.
To be frank, this whole game is an unfortunate succession of poor judgement!
To give you some examples aside of ECM:

Gaussapult - Twin Gauss ain't broken even though the weapon itself could use some tweaking, the biggest problem about it is the fact that the damn things are in the sidetorsos...

Lagshield - I will admit back in CB it wasn't perfect but at least I remember being able to hit lightmechs every once in a while. It's a mystery to me how it's possible to break something that has worked more or less so badly!
Granted, they're not warping around anymore but the hitboxes of fast mechs are at least 2-5 mechlengths in front of where the mech is displayed. That's pretty much unplayable!

Servers - Supposedly these folks made a shitload of money from Foundersales, and I know for a fact there are still enough people who buy mechs for 20+ bucks, so how the hell do you not manage to put up a european server already?!? Hell, a server somewhere closer to the US-coast would probably work better than freakin' Canada!
The lagshield wouldn't be as much of an issue... God, both Hawken and Planetside2 managed to get those live during CLOSED BETA!

Matchmaking - Hands up who actually thought this was a good idea? I actually thought this could be a temporary solution, but then they allowed teams to consist of two 4-man-groups... :facepalm:
Who the hell was dense enough to think people wouldn't figure that out and start syncdropping again?! (for the record, the ELP stopped that when the devs asked the community to)
What's even worse is labling it an exploit and threatening to punish people for doing it. It's not an Error that allows people to do what they aren't supposed, the system was never designed to handle that problem in the first place! It's nothing more but a stupid aliby...

As for badly designed systems:
Conquest - It was utterly predictable that this would turn into Deathmatch with an additional win-condition if people weren't given enough incentive to actually go cap... and guess what?!
Played several rounds of conquest, and actually managed to win several times by capturing.. I would have made a lot more money and XP by simply killing the enemy...

And then there's of course ECM which I already addressed...
So much for me tiptoeing around the subject.

All those things are known, but eventually people just gave up, because it hit's deaf ears anyway...
All those issues could/should have been addressed long ago (with the exception of the Gaussapult as that's a debatable one), but if anything, it's only gotten worse so far...

THIS. This, is what we need more of. Our complaints would no longer fall on deaf ears, if everyone could be as clear-cut and honest. This is beta and too many people are forgetting that we are beta testers and should be providing feedback. Letting things slip through the crack will only bite us in the butt later. We aren't angry because we do not care. We are angry because we feel passionate about the game and want to see it succeed.

Thank you.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 15 January 2013 - 02:09 PM.


#83 Sesambrot

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 02:35 PM

You know, the reason people like myself stop(ed) frequenting the feedback-forums (in my case during CB) is that nobody seems to care...
Half the community is too busy worshipping the devs for introducing the latest pile of crap and throwing insane amounts of money at them for making a game that has "Mechwarrior" in it's name (srsly saw someone who claimed he had paid about 1000$ for several foundersaccounts and MC even before OB... I mean come on!?) while the rest of them, who temporarily ran out of money from changing the colorschemes on their mechs throw fits and try to point out what a ****** you are for disagreeing with the almighty wisdom of those who are responsible for putting in more and more half finished features...

The game has lots of potential, but it seems every second patch they run out of stuff to break, so they introduce something new to break that instead...

Sad truth is, there seem to be far too few who actually want to see all that...
I don't poke my head in here very often, exactly because of that, I only hope the devs wise up on their own eventually...

#84 StalaggtIKE

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 02:41 PM

It is pathetic. I was dumping money into this game, should have been a founder, but realize the direction this game was going in and stopped. I guess it's best for my bank account. ;)

I hope, at least, that the founder who paid $1000 is getting his feedback addressed.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 15 January 2013 - 02:44 PM.


#85 Sesambrot

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 03:01 PM

I haven't spent any money except for this founderspack, and I haven't spent any MC nor activated my premium time, because... duh... I'm not trying to get it back, because I knew it was a gamble, but I'm not going to spend any more until they finally get their **** together!

I also don't think that guy is getting anything addressed... Stupid as it sounds, IIRC he mentioned that in the "farewell" post he wrote when he left, basically because of what's going on with the development of this game.
What is really needed is some seriously bad review for all the problems this game has and the devteam doesn't bother to address... However, considering what happened to the guy at gamespy who dared give this game a mediocre review based on his first impression, I can see why reviewers wouldn't want to touch it with a ten foot pole unless they're out for a shitstorm of horribly biased BTnerds telling them they just don't get it and calling them [REDACTED] and [REDACTED]...

#86 Chuckie

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 04:04 PM

I will not admit how much Ihave spent..

But the game is fun... it has its bugs.. BUT REPEAT AFTER ME ..

ITS IN BETA and ITS FREE (if you want it to be)

So deal.. geez. Try playing Hawken or MWT.. want to play a pointless and unfun game I got those two for you.

#87 Sesambrot

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 04:22 PM

-"it has it's bugs..." is a massive understatement!
-being in beta is not an excuse for not addressing problems at all, which have been present for months and always finding new ways to break things
-neither is being F2P
-Whether you like Hawken or not, is personal preference, but looking at it objectively, they actually fix bugs, they have european servers, they aren't greedy as **** and they have shown to have a bit of common sense when it comes to balancing... Oh and guess what; it's also F2P and in Open Beta... who would have guessed?!? :D

so there... now fanboy on wouldya?!

Edited by Sesambrot, 15 January 2013 - 04:24 PM.


#88 White Bear 84

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 04:47 PM

My five cents (or points, depending on how you look at it)

1. ECM is not broken - it is other game mechanics that enable it to be OP
2. Firstly you need to re-introduce tripping to balance the lights
3. Second, fix the netcode so you can accurately hit light mechs
4. Fix the matchmaking system so that there is a balance between the mechs on the field and mechs with ECM, give the user choice on an ECM or non-ECM match, you could enforce ECM balance.. ..so many possibilities
5. Do something with (2), (3) and (4) and ECM will far more balanced and reasonable than it is now.

Think retrospectively.. ..think outside the box! ECM is not the problem....

#89 Sesambrot

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 04:52 PM

Oh btw, i forgot to mentin that Hawken's netcode just f-ing works it may induce a feeling of nostalgia to those seasoned veterans having to lagshoot like in MW3, but srsly welcome to the 21st century we consider crap like that unacceptable! :D

#90 StalaggtIKE

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 05:56 PM

View PostWhite Bear 84, on 15 January 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

My five cents (or points, depending on how you look at it)

1. ECM is not broken - it is other game mechanics that enable it to be OP
2. Firstly you need to re-introduce tripping to balance the lights
3. Second, fix the netcode so you can accurately hit light mechs
4. Fix the matchmaking system so that there is a balance between the mechs on the field and mechs with ECM, give the user choice on an ECM or non-ECM match, you could enforce ECM balance.. ..so many possibilities
5. Do something with (2), (3) and (4) and ECM will far more balanced and reasonable than it is now.

Think retrospectively.. ..think outside the box! ECM is not the problem....

First off, ECM is not OP, it's unbalanced. Second, 2-4 has nothing to do with ECM and are separate issues. Finally, if you have to adjust matchmaker to account for ECM, then ECM is a problem.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 15 January 2013 - 05:56 PM.


#91 White Bear 84

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 06:10 PM

View PostStalaggtIKE, on 15 January 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

First off, ECM is not OP, it's unbalanced. Second, 2-4 has nothing to do with ECM and are separate issues. Finally, if you have to adjust matchmaker to account for ECM, then ECM is a problem.


Ok, they affect how matches pan out - you cant hit lights because of netcode and you cant trip them so you just end up getting circled.. ..how tough do you think it would be to take down an ECM raven if these two items were fixed? The amount of ECM is OP threads would drop off instantly.. ..they dont have anything to do with ECM but they are game mechanics that influence the way ECM fits in the game.

ECM is in game as the developers intended, its unbalanced because of other game mechanics. When you have 2 ecm lights circling you, streak boating you and your shots dont register because of lag/netcode, and you can do nothing to stop them circling you that is unbalance.. ..if you can hit them and/or trip them then there is a much greater balance. It not just because a light ECM has streaks that its absolutely caning you, its because its circling giving the mecha-god infallible circle of death!

Bam, shove a trip in there and they aint so infallible now! Bam, your weapons actually hit them.. ..they aint so infallible now! The bigger issue here is not with ECM, its with the game mechanics. Maybe the devs arent responding to all the ECM threads because this is also what they are thinking. Fix the netcode, fix lag, fix tripping then see how ECM goes...

Edited by White Bear 84, 15 January 2013 - 06:11 PM.


#92 Gremlich Johns

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 06:17 PM

View PostWhite Bear 84, on 15 January 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

My five cents (or points, depending on how you look at it)

1. ECM is not broken - it is other game mechanics that enable it to be OP
2. Firstly you need to re-introduce tripping to balance the lights
3. Second, fix the netcode so you can accurately hit light mechs
4. Fix the matchmaking system so that there is a balance between the mechs on the field and mechs with ECM, give the user choice on an ECM or non-ECM match, you could enforce ECM balance.. ..so many possibilities
5. Do something with (2), (3) and (4) and ECM will far more balanced and reasonable than it is now.

Think retrospectively.. ..think outside the box! ECM is not the problem....


I agree, ECM isn't broken, but it has not been correctly implemented. Your 1st point should mean that the ECM suite provides effects only for the mech mounting it, not for every friendly mech within 180m of it - PGI has brought in the cloak from the future of the BT milieu and THAT made it OP. THAT use is exploitation of a capability which is frankly eliminating the scout role. You can eliminate point 5 so points 2, 3 and 4 are okay as is.

ECM as implemented by PGI is actually the problem. The canon suite should have been implemented and limited to the carrying mech. Coupled with knockdown, then it would have been better received.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 15 January 2013 - 06:19 PM.


#93 StalaggtIKE

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 06:46 PM

View PostWhite Bear 84, on 15 January 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:


Ok, they affect how matches pan out - you cant hit lights because of netcode and you cant trip them so you just end up getting circled.. ..how tough do you think it would be to take down an ECM raven if these two items were fixed? The amount of ECM is OP threads would drop off instantly.. ..they dont have anything to do with ECM but they are game mechanics that influence the way ECM fits in the game.

ECM is in game as the developers intended, its unbalanced because of other game mechanics. When you have 2 ecm lights circling you, streak boating you and your shots dont register because of lag/netcode, and you can do nothing to stop them circling you that is unbalance.. ..if you can hit them and/or trip them then there is a much greater balance. It not just because a light ECM has streaks that its absolutely caning you, its because its circling giving the mecha-god infallible circle of death!

Bam, shove a trip in there and they aint so infallible now! Bam, your weapons actually hit them.. ..they aint so infallible now! The bigger issue here is not with ECM, its with the game mechanics. Maybe the devs arent responding to all the ECM threads because this is also what they are thinking. Fix the netcode, fix lag, fix tripping then see how ECM goes...

Sigh.., Personally I don't have much of a problem killing lights, nor do I need SSRM to do so. The ability to defeat an ECM mech has nothing to do with balance, it's the implementation of ECM. Even if the whole missile lock-on thing was removed from ECM, it would still be unbalanced. I'll try to break it down in a simple format:
Posted Image
Due to ECM having stealth properties, MechA, without ECM must be within 200m in order to even spot the enemy. However the MechB, on the right, with ECM, can spot the enemy out to 800m! That's a 600m difference. By that time he's got intel on weapons and damaged armor well before you can. In theory ECM does BAP's job better, oh and it also neutralizes it to boot. Now with the just released modules in the current patch, the ECM mech can further increase his range advantage by 800m+. However, the module does not increase range vs ECM. This only further increases ECM vs non-ECM advantage.
Source: Sensor Range Rank 2

#94 ExAstris

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 09:18 PM

The entire quoted post below is golden, and worth a read if you haven't already. I'm just quoting the proposed fix to ECM.

View Postltwally, on 09 January 2013 - 10:04 PM, said:

This is actually pretty simple. Fix all of Information Warfare in one sweep, as follows:
  • Upgrade Beagle to be more effective. (Half of what it does for TT simply does not translate into MW:O). It should generate noticeable improvements on sensor range, and allow sensors to "see around corners". This would turn it into a scout tool for MW:O like it is in TT. Limit Beagle to scout mechs (light mechs + Cicada), as it is a scout tool and should be constrained to scout mechs.
  • Upgrade NARC to be more effective. It needs to last substantially longer. (In TT, it lasts for the duration of the battle, though this might be over-powered in MW:O.) Also, it needs to broadcast so that friendlies can use it for targeting data, even if no friendlies have Line-of-Sight.
  • ECM should counter Artemis, Beagle and Narc. It should have no effect on other sensors. Open ECM up to all mechs.
Implement those 3 things. Test it for a month or so. Adjust as necessary. I'd bet good money that few adjustments would need to be made; once Beagle and Narc are actually worth using, then having ECM only counter them makes it worthwhile.





I'm not convinced this is the best fix possible for the entire information warfare aspect of MWO. In fact, I have a comprehensive information warfare proposal linked in my sig that I think trumps any version that relies on the small handful of e-war equipment pieces from TT as the sole composition of i-war.

However, that said, I do realize that my implimentation takes alot more work than most. And so far as simple fixes go towards promoting the best gameplay experience, this guy hit the nail on the head.

If the DEVs want us to play in the dark with even less information than we had before ECM, then they should reduce all mechs base capabilities (possibly by removing the free pseudo-C3 computer we all get that transmits target data, or just flat out reducing maximum locking ranges, or by giving every mech a built in ECM for no crits/tonnage). All of those options would be fair ways to impliment the effects of ECM that do not mess with gameplay, balance, or (at least to the same extent) enjoyability.

Similarly, if the DEVs wanted us to play with access to more information, they could simply improve every mech in the other direction, increase maximum targeting/locking range, increase map visibility, let sensors detect enemies through terrain, etc.



But imo, the information we could gather pre-ECM was already spot on and quite limited in many cases. I am perfectly OK with modifying our total information on the battlefield up and down a little bit with mech modifications, equipment, etc. But drastic changes to the basic formula just weren't warrented, it was working just right.


Thus, the choice to restrict the information gaining, sharing, and using by giving ECM stealth beyond 200m, canceling of all incoming and outgoing enemy targeting info inside 180m, and full hard-lock canceling inside 180, distrupted that balance significantly.

Conversely, if we implimented a 2 crit, 1.5 ton piece of equipment that gave a continuous unbreakable uplink to a satellite that provided constant minimap updates for all units positions on the field (even if it wasn't targetable, just battlegrid locations), it would drastically disrupt the balance of the game because it massively shifts the total amount of information on the battlefield. No more guessing where enemies are, no more getting caught by overwhelming numbers unexpectedly, no more sneaky base-caps, no more guessing where those last couple of guys went to hide while their conquest points stack up on you, etc. If we then limited this module's use to just 5 chasis because it was too powerful, would anyone in their right mind call that balanced?


No. They wouldn't. ECM does too much for too little, just like that satellite uplink equipment would. It becomes a requirement, a tax to every variant that can mount it, and a stamp of disapproval to every variant that cannot.


To bring this post full circle, the quoted fix eliminates the biggest problem with ECM, it changes the flow of information on the battlefield by too much. Its OK if it disrupts information sharing between enemies in its bubble, but it cannot disrupt target aquisition (hardlocks) of any mech, nor should it be granting aoe-stealth.

I do not recommend this change out of some love of TT (It was a fine game the few times I played it, but I have no special allegience to it), I recommend this change wholeheartedly because it will bring the total information on the battlefield back to near where it use to be, which is where we want it, and because it will put the benefits of ECM in a far more reasonable proportion to its mounting costs.

#95 StalaggtIKE

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 09:28 PM

View PostExAstris, on 15 January 2013 - 09:18 PM, said:

The entire quoted post below is golden, and worth a read if you haven't already. I'm just quoting the proposed fix to ECM.



I'm not convinced this is the best fix possible for the entire information warfare aspect of MWO. In fact, I have a comprehensive information warfare proposal linked in my sig that I think trumps any version that relies on the small handful of e-war equipment pieces from TT as the sole composition of i-war.

However, that said, I do realize that my implimentation takes alot more work than most. And so far as simple fixes go towards promoting the best gameplay experience, this guy hit the nail on the head.

If the DEVs want us to play in the dark with even less information than we had before ECM, then they should reduce all mechs base capabilities (possibly by removing the free pseudo-C3 computer we all get that transmits target data, or just flat out reducing maximum locking ranges, or by giving every mech a built in ECM for no crits/tonnage). All of those options would be fair ways to impliment the effects of ECM that do not mess with gameplay, balance, or (at least to the same extent) enjoyability.

Similarly, if the DEVs wanted us to play with access to more information, they could simply improve every mech in the other direction, increase maximum targeting/locking range, increase map visibility, let sensors detect enemies through terrain, etc.



But imo, the information we could gather pre-ECM was already spot on and quite limited in many cases. I am perfectly OK with modifying our total information on the battlefield up and down a little bit with mech modifications, equipment, etc. But drastic changes to the basic formula just weren't warrented, it was working just right.


Thus, the choice to restrict the information gaining, sharing, and using by giving ECM stealth beyond 200m, canceling of all incoming and outgoing enemy targeting info inside 180m, and full hard-lock canceling inside 180, distrupted that balance significantly.

Conversely, if we implimented a 2 crit, 1.5 ton piece of equipment that gave a continuous unbreakable uplink to a satellite that provided constant minimap updates for all units positions on the field (even if it wasn't targetable, just battlegrid locations), it would drastically disrupt the balance of the game because it massively shifts the total amount of information on the battlefield. No more guessing where enemies are, no more getting caught by overwhelming numbers unexpectedly, no more sneaky base-caps, no more guessing where those last couple of guys went to hide while their conquest points stack up on you, etc. If we then limited this module's use to just 5 chasis because it was too powerful, would anyone in their right mind call that balanced?


No. They wouldn't. ECM does too much for too little, just like that satellite uplink equipment would. It becomes a requirement, a tax to every variant that can mount it, and a stamp of disapproval to every variant that cannot.


To bring this post full circle, the quoted fix eliminates the biggest problem with ECM, it changes the flow of information on the battlefield by too much. Its OK if it disrupts information sharing between enemies in its bubble, but it cannot disrupt target aquisition (hardlocks) of any mech, nor should it be granting aoe-stealth.

I do not recommend this change out of some love of TT (It was a fine game the few times I played it, but I have no special allegience to it), I recommend this change wholeheartedly because it will bring the total information on the battlefield back to near where it use to be, which is where we want it, and because it will put the benefits of ECM in a far more reasonable proportion to its mounting costs.

Well said. With the current state of the game, I would almost look forward to the broken satellite uplink.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 16 January 2013 - 05:37 AM.


#96 Fraggoth

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:54 AM

I agree with the Tabletop description:

It affects ONLY Artemis, BAP, and NARC, and those are ONLY affected WITHIN 180m. Ability to acquire targets through Line of Sight is unaffected.

The main reason as far as I can tell that it currently affects our ability to target ECM equipped 'mechs is that we more-or-less have a version of C3 computers automatically installed in our 'mechs. I'm not going to take that into account, though, since it's a core mechanic, and it's fairly debatable whether or not we really have C3's installed anyway.

All that aside, how do we use ECM to fix the issue that ECM was ostensibly implemented (in MW:O) to remedy, I.E.: MissileBoat Online?

This might actually be fairly easy! It DOES mean giving ECM an additional property, but it's SORT OF there in the manual. Read Stormwolf's post and you'll see what I mean:

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1741693

Now read that italicized part that is indicating a diagram in the Total War excerpt. Note the parts about shots being affected. Yes, I know that it's related to dice rolls, and not point-and-click mechanics, but it got me to thinking:

All you really have to do to make ECM work as missile defense and NOT be a Stealth system, is simply have it knock out a missile's homing function once it gets within the 180m bubble! We could lock on and fire quite normally. Sure, the missiles will still be hurtling at the ECM equipped 'mech, but if he/she moves, well... minimal damage, without completely nullifiying the effectiveness of everyone with LRMs.

This would work on SSRMs as well, of course, making Streaks a LOT harder to use, but while still remaining viable. You would be able to lock on to and target the ECM equipped enemy and also be able to fire at them, but once those missiles are in that 180m bubble- they turn into dumbfires, much like vanilla SRMs. This would mean that Streaks would be viable, but would also require skill to use. Yes, a Streak-Cat would still be dangerous, but it would be more like an SRM2-Cat.

Heck, it would even keep the Helps-Your-Allies function, since it would conk out missiles headed at your allies. My only concern would be that an ECM 'mech would basically act as a shield for her/his entire team by being at the front, disrupting all missiles headed behind them, which would leave us in a similar bind to what we have now, except we could at LEAST target the other team.

This, I feel, would be one of the best ways to integrate both the functions of ECM from TT and help the Missile Boating and Streak-Spamming problem we had Pre-ECM. There are probably some huge problems I haven't considered, and I'm sure there will be some folks who will point this out with a vengeance, but at its core I feel it's a REALLY good solution that not only keeps a bit closer to TT lore AND fulfills what the Devs were going for when it was introduced.

Edited by Fraggoth, 18 January 2013 - 12:06 PM.


#97 GldnSabre

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:24 PM

How bout they make ECM an active system where you have to hold your primary fire button to engage and keep in engaged. With ECM installed you cannot fire weapons while it is active (Kinda like the cloak in ST). Separate ECM to three active modes, Cloaking, Missile Lock Break, and ECM Counter. Something like this would make the pilot have to do more work to use this system.


I do not know have drunk and maybe just having diarrhea of the mouth who knows.

#98 StalaggtIKE

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:59 PM

How about they flip it around. ECM disrupt only the closest mech to it. ECCM counters all ECM within 180m.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 18 January 2013 - 01:00 PM.






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