183 replies to this topic

[Tolkien]

Grey Black, on 12 January 2013 - 03:49 AM, said:

This thread is patently wrong. Everyone knows the COM-2D is more powerful. Same speed, 3rd SSRM launcher, and smaller profile, and 10 tons lighter. Obviously!

I have to disagree just to be controversial!

I've run a Trollmando 2D and found the following when running a 3x SSRM2, 1 Medium Laser build

1) With 2 tons of ammo to share between the 6 tubes, you will often run out of ammo before you run out of enemies.
2) While you do have an extra SSRM making you more effective against lights, you are much less effective against heavier mechs
3) The armor is much thinner than the Craven 3L, so even with your extra SSRM launcher you won't stand up to one in a fight, especially if he gets the lasers on your back.

To be clear - in the Craven you have to respect the Trollmando 2D, and you should prioritize him as a target, but he likely won't be able to outfight you one on one.

Edited by Tolkien, 12 January 2013 - 04:08 AM.

[Grey Black]

Tolkien, on 12 January 2013 - 04:07 AM, said:

I have to disagree just to be controversial!

I've run a Trollmando 2D and found the following when running a 3x SSRM2, 1 Medium Laser build

1) With 2 tons of ammo to share between the 6 tubes, you will often run out of ammo before you run out of enemies.
2) While you do have an extra SSRM making you more effective against lights, you are much less effective against heavier mechs
3) The armor is much thinner than the Craven 3L, so even with your extra SSRM launcher you won't stand up to one in a fight, especially if he gets the lasers on your back.

To be clear - in the Craven you have to respect the Trollmando 2D, and you should prioritize him as a target, but he likely won't be able to outfight you one on one.

Oh, I get it. I was just trolling (as all trollmandos do). However, just for the sake of continuing the troll, I will say that 1v1 trollmando vs craven, it all will come down to skill. If the trollmando can pull of the ECM disrupts/counter timing well, then it goes to the trollmando. With any less skill, it will likely go to the craven (those 3 mlas will pack a huge punch and likely leg the trollmando in no time). Versus bigger targets, I will definitely agree the Craven can take them down much easier (I'm thinking AS7-D-DC specifically). In the current metagame, though, it seems like it might be somewhat wiser to pull a scout-hunter to eat the Cravens and ECM Cicadas rather than run something a little more "Jack of all trades."

Off topic, who would have ever thought that one day, someone could say the Raven was a "Jack of all trades"?

[Inveramsay]

On a fast mech I much prefer how the pulse lasers handle so I roll a 2xMPL, Tag, ECM and 2xSSRM with 2t ammo, 280XL, 11 DHS, Endo and FF with 232 armour. For me this seems to work better than the usual 3xMLas and 2xSSRM

[Mindtrucking]

I started playing MWO just a while ago. Bought the Raven 3L, started getting atleast 1 kill per game. Bought the 295 XL, had my first game with 5 kills. This thing is so much fun. Sure, I only have the trial mechs to compare to, but still... I love this build already!

[Burkmanfox]

Sorry for this dumb ? but what about NARC or TAG maybe BEAGLE on the Craven, when I put this together didn't seem to have enough room,didn't notice Tolkein mention if he equiped any of these.

[Polarice]

Narc is not really useful, tag can be handy but I prefer the extra ml. Bap is not on the build as its extra tonnage you need. That and you can take a module for 0 weight that does the same kind of thing.

[Orgasmo]

When you play in premades with your friends having LRMs, I rather pack a TAG than another medium laser. When you fight bigger mechs, call down fire support.

[Tolkien]

Burkmanfox, on 12 January 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

Sorry for this dumb ? but what about NARC or TAG maybe BEAGLE on the Craven, when I put this together didn't seem to have enough room,didn't notice Tolkein mention if he equiped any of these.

Polarice already answered these, but just to confirm there are no other pieces of equipment on it by default.

1) Bring TAG if you are dropping with friends and know you will have LRM support to use it, otherwise it's a risk. Personally when pugging I prefer to have the extra medium laser for punching through big mech torsos.

2) BAP is not very good in its current implementation since ECM hard counters it. Oddly ECM counters BAP even when the BAP is not inside the 102,000 square metre exclusion zone. It just doesn't work agains mechs that have ECM or are in the bubble.

3) NARC is currently not worth using - I have yet to encounter one on the battlefield.

[Bad Brad Keselowski]

I buried out my 3L some days ago which i accidentally bought once. It's really ridiculous. First I don't use good equip, I have the stock engine which lets you only go like 97KPH.

I consider myself a very poor light pilot, I often get stuck somewhere. But, tough, to take me out it took:

A decent Com-2D pilot who had to be significantly faster to outmaneuvre me.

A very good Jenner pilot who also had to be significantly faster than me.

So, anyone who wanted to take me out had to be quite better in skill and significantly better in equip. It's just ridiculous. I really hope they change something. I played like 8 games with it, 7 were wins. After that I couldn't take it anymore.


By all my admiration for your dedication to solve this problem Tolkien...if they don't change anything fast, I think you make it way worse with this post^^

[Tolkien]

Bad Brad Keselowski, on 13 January 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

I buried out my 3L some days ago which i accidentally bought once. It's really ridiculous. First I don't use good equip, I have the stock engine which lets you only go like 97KPH.

I consider myself a very poor light pilot, I often get stuck somewhere. But, tough, to take me out it took:

A decent Com-2D pilot who had to be significantly faster to outmaneuvre me.

A very good Jenner pilot who also had to be significantly faster than me.

So, anyone who wanted to take me out had to be quite better in skill and significantly better in equip. It's just ridiculous. I really hope they change something. I played like 8 games with it, 7 were wins. After that I couldn't take it anymore.


By all my admiration for your dedication to solve this problem Tolkien...if they don't change anything fast, I think you make it way worse with this post^^

Thanks for the kind words, Brad.

It makes me feel dirty to play it too, but hey there's a certain perverse magic to getting ~1000 damage and 5 kills in a 35 ton light mech. The Craven 3L lives longer and does more damage than my founders Jenner or Hunchback ever could.

I hope that if enough people play this mech the problems with ECM hard countering guided missiles will be made clear for all.

Edited by Tolkien, 13 January 2013 - 04:47 AM.

[Regrets]

Hey guys, I have been informed in the suggestions forum that this is totally L2P on my behalf. That the 3L is faster than every other Raven is a feature, not a bug. My non-ECM mando is totally balanced with the 3L despite less firepower, speed, no ECM, and less armor. I guess being shorter >>>>>>> all of that. Napolean is one bad mammer jammer and all that.

I am sorry for suggesting that there is anything wrong here. Brb, uninstalling to go KD in CoD2BO. *yawn*

Edited by Regrets, 13 January 2013 - 11:41 AM.

[Tolkien]

Regrets, on 13 January 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

Hey guys, I have been informed in the suggestions forum that this is totally L2P on my behalf. That the 3L is faster than every other Raven is a feature, not a bug. My non-ECM mando is totally balanced with the 3L despite less firepower, speed, no ECM, and less armor. I guess being shorter >>>>>>> all of that. Napolean is one bad mammer jammer and all that.

I am sorry for suggesting that there is anything wrong here. Brb, uninstalling to go KD in CoD2BO. *yawn*

No, don't do that! Your experience as a light pilot makes you a perfect fit for a Craven 3L - please consider using your powers for evil like the rest of us, and joining in a shiny death bird.

[XSerjo]

Thanx for example of Loadout, Tolkien.

If tuesday's patch will not change ECM or SSRM.. I want to switch my D/F Jenners to Raven 3L (hate it).
No, I can blow Raven's legs or slow him 1 vs 1. But 3L'll bring my teammates much more firepower and aglility.

What about correlation between number of ECM and win/loss. For me, it is (same team, with or without ECM-Atlas - it's pretty easy to loose without any ECM cover).

Edited by XSerjo, 13 January 2013 - 07:33 PM.

[Business]

XSerjo, on 13 January 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

If tuesday's patch will not change ECM or SSRM.. I want to switch my D/F Jenners to Raven 3L (hate it).
No, I can blow Raven's legs or slow him 1 vs 1. But 3L'll bring my teammates much more firepower and aglility.

Pretty much my thoughts as well.

[Tolkien]

XSerjo, on 13 January 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

Thanx for example of Loadout, Tolkien.

If tuesday's patch will not change ECM or SSRM.. I want to switch my D/F Jenners to Raven 3L (hate it).
No, I can blow Raven's legs or slow him 1 vs 1. But 3L'll bring my teammates much more firepower and aglility.

What about correlation between number of ECM and win/loss. For me, it is (same team, with or without ECM-Atlas - it's pretty easy to loose without any ECM cover).

I didn't look deeper into what the effects of N+1, N+2, N+3 etc. ECM number is, just N+1. I'm sure there is an incremental advantage, but at some point there will be diminishing returns where the team is better off bringing an extra medium laser and some armor

This happens because of the hard-counter of ECM vs. ECM. The team that has N+1 of them nearby gets all of the advantages and none of the drawbacks, and the area this covers is larger than a grid of 18 american football fields. This means that for all intents and purposes you can model all ECM on a given team as being at the front line, especially since 3/4 of ECM carriers are fast mehcs.

[Cordy Ceps]

This 3l is an insult to the players. Every match when a team has a non-ecm light and the other team has a 3l (which is like 70% of all cases), the team with the 3l downright wins, period. The exceptions from this rule are rare and probably due to stock 3l or stock 3l drivers brains.

Sometimes I get so frustrated with this game cause of these little s...ts, i take my own and rule. Even if its unfair.
And guess what? the only thing that can stop me is another 3l (in a pug o.c.).

This thing gets the best hardpoints, 3 module slots AND ECM - hellyeah.

But the best is still to come: Additionall to being exceptionally good as it is, this thing gets a ******* evasion +60 bonus from the netcode. Hitting this thing (well, every light) is a lottery.

IMAO, since lagshield IS PART OF THE CURRENT META, the devs have to balance lagshielded mechs accordingly! They can re-balance them again when lagshield is gone!

P.S. : The job for the lead network programmer is still vacant - expect no netcode improvements next patch.

Edited by Cordy Ceps, 14 January 2013 - 06:54 AM.

[Tolkien]

Cordy Ceps, on 14 January 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:

This 3l is an insult to the players. Every match when a team has a non-ecm light and the other team has a 3l (which is like 70% of all cases), the team with the 3l downright wins, period. The exceptions from this rule are rare and probably due to stock 3l or stock 3l drivers brains.

Sometimes I get so frustrated with this game cause of these little s...ts, i take my own and rule. Even if its unfair.
And guess what? the only thing that can stop me is another 3l (in a pug o.c.).

This thing gets the best hardpoints, 3 module slots AND ECM - hellyeah.

But the best is still to come: Additionall to being exceptionally good as it is, this thing gets a ******* evasion +60 bonus from the netcode. Hitting this thing (well, every light) is a lottery.

IMAO, since lagshield IS PART OF THE CURRENT META, the devs have to balance lagshielded mechs accordingly! They can re-balance them again when lagshield is gone!

P.S. : IMAO, its a disgrace to have A BUG rule the current meta of a mmo.

Hi Cody - I agree with the majority of what you say here, the really strange thing is that the lag shielded mechs used to have to fear guided missiles. Thankfully that was solved by the introduction of ECM so if you have local ECM superiority you've got a free hand more or less

[Cordy Ceps]

ECM superiority is a game-winner, thats a given. Even without the stealth-bubble, without the comms jamming, ECM would STILL be worth the 1.5 tons.

Just for the lock-on immunity and single-mech stealth.

Make this thing a single-hex ECM and everyone will still take it!
Make it half as good and ppl will still buy mechs because of it!
Its pure comedy, but noones laughing.

[G Land]

In most games, if things were getting this annoying I would just quit, but I 'really' want MW:O to do well in the long run since I like it so much at it's core.

This means that I completely agree with you Tolkein and I will be purchasing a Raven 3L tuesday after the patch if I don't see massive progress towards:

• Fixing netcode to hit lights
  
• fixing hit boxes on Raven (as jenners and commandos are much easier to hit even with lag shield)
  
• nerfing streaks (make them hit arms and legs equally likely as torso, reduce fire rate, require re-lock on, and/or reduce their agility to 90 degree turn)
  
• adjust ecm (make it heavier, nerf it, do something, not so bad an an atlas, 100% broken on a light currently)

After that I will then play that raven for at least half my games (would go insane doing more than that) and encourage everyone I play with/against to do the same until PGI has to act as they will be over represented all over.

[Tolkien]

Hi Cody and G Land,

I too want to see the game succeed as they already have my $120, plus I bought a friend who liked mechwarrior the $40 pack as a gift.

He doesn't touch it anymore unless I cajole him into playing which is kinda sad. I like to think he's suffering from beta burnout and that he'll be back at launch, but in the meantime there are some seriously 'interesting' balance issues cropping up, including but not limited to ECM.

I hope you enjoy your shiny Craven 3L deathbirds (pending information on the Tuesday patch).