60 replies to this topic

[Rakashan]

EyeOne, on 10 January 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

We are the worst community in gaming history.

Heavens no. You didn't play SWTOR I guess. I'd have to think before I could say it even makes the top 5 in my personal experience.

[Strucker]

Serapth, on 10 January 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

You can't drop something like ECM into the game, ask for feedback, get an absolute mountain, then ignore the community completely... that's pretty freaking appalling.

Not to mention the wonderful job they did communicating yesterdays patch... just drop the servers

I know they are a young company, but that should make them more agile with their communications, not less so. To say nothing of professionalism.

ECM is a mixed bag unfortunately, the unifying theme is it needs to be balanced or at the very least talked about in depth and fast for PGI to avoid a total breakdown of community confidence, yes this is still open beta and that grants a certain gray area however with such monumental issues typically there is a crunch to fix any major issues within a week or two.

That brings me back to my previous point, ECM is just one of many factors playing a part here:
first there is the netcode, which has become progressively better over time but it still leaves alot to be desired, associated with the netcode is the lagshield given to faster mechs especially lights which is most respects makes them nearly invincible to non-tracking weapons (ie: lasers, srm's, ac's, etc);
second there are Streaks which are still to our knowledge in the midst of rebalancing with no concrete plan as to how it will be done to prevent 'boating', and with respect there are alot of currently ineffective weapons that require rebalancing (ie: machine guns, flamers, etc);
third is the matchmaker which unfortunately has proven over time to be unreliable in any form of balance with 90% of matches being a complete steamroll for one reason or another;
fourth you have the deployment of a major patch immediately before the holiday break which largely left the community with many new issues and concerns that were not able to be addressed or answered resulting in nearly a month of backlog for PGI to sort through after their return;
fifth and this relates to the previous point, the apparent communication issues, this will plague any company at some point however the key is how they address and deal with their communications strategies, too much of an 'open forum' and the community can become too influential in the development process, too little and the community can be largely shock by the implementation of features and mechanics;
lastly you have ECM itself which has a whole host of issues pertaining to it, the best example of which was / is Tolkien's post within the Ask the Dev's section.

And there are probably alot of other issues that play a part, however I just selected a few that came immediately to my mind.

So its not to say that ECM alone has 'ruined' MWO or turned the community on its end, really the state of the game is very multidimensional, it just seems ECM has been the turning point where alot of players said enough is enough we need things discussed and fixed now not later, similar to the LRM changes which sparked outrage in the later half of 2012. Unfortunately we have yet to see anything come of the current posts in terms of tangible information be it a patch or a blog.

All this under consideration as I stated previously MWO is still in beta, and that is what a beta typically does, sort through the issues with major game systems, its not always pretty but it is the 'nature of the beast' so to speak.

After participating in many betas and even a few alphas I'll try to pass on some advice for players being frustrated by alot of issues. Take a break, even if just for a few days, playing and getting more and more aggravated with a problem will just result in hatred for a game which is suppose to be fun, maybe you'll never play MWO again after you take a break, but it is better to leave and decide not to come back rather than become so overly upset that you 'rage quit'.

[hammerreborn]

Strucker, on 10 January 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

So its not to say that ECM alone has 'ruined' MWO or turned the community on its end, really the state of the game is very multidimensional, it just seems ECM has been the turning point where alot of players said enough is enough we need things discussed and fixed now not later, similar to the LRM changes which sparked outrage in the later half of 2012. Unfortunately we have yet to see anything come of the current posts in terms of tangible information be it a patch or a blog.

All this under consideration as I stated previously MWO is still in beta, and that is what a beta typically does, sort through the issues with major game systems, its not always pretty but it is the 'nature of the beast' so to speak.

After participating in many betas and even a few alphas I'll try to pass on some advice for players being frustrated by alot of issues. Take a break, even if just for a few days, playing and getting more and more aggravated with a problem will just result in hatred for a game which is suppose to be fun, maybe you'll never play MWO again after you take a break, but it is better to leave and decide not to come back rather than become so overly upset that you 'rage quit'.

You're so adorable. You honestly think ECM was a turning point when its just the cool thing to ***** about currently. Before ECM it was sreaks that broke the game, before that it was not enough maps, before that it was the economy, before that it was lights, before that it was lrms, and before that was a mystical time where only founders could play without the cesspool of trolls and idiots saying they aren't playing the game anymore but will post 50 threads a day about how good they are with streaks and how bad PGI sucks, and there was actual constructive feedback for a while and people would talk about how great dragon tackling was instead of how weapon balance means the game is DOOOOOOOOMMMMMMEEEEEDDDDDD.

When ECM is fixed (which i dont think it should) it'll be lasers have ruined the game, dakkaphracts, thundercats, then last but not least the rampant crybabies will cry about NARC being OP, Flamers making it too hard to see and OP, and last but not least that Machine guns make too much noise that they can't concentrate on shooting the now giant glowing arrow while betty says shoot now because of the easy mode noobs want the game to be.

[Serapth]

Thorn Hallis, on 10 January 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

You know, the devs don't have to talk to us. It's all voluntary.

So is paying them more money. One is directly linked to the other these days. You make a community based game and want to see any level of success, you need to engage your community!

Lately they certainly haven't been.

Edited by Serapth, 10 January 2013 - 02:00 PM.

[Orzorn]

hammerreborn, on 10 January 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

You're so adorable. You honestly think ECM was a turning point when its just the cool thing to ***** about currently. Before ECM it was sreaks that broke the game,

Ignoring all the other junk (which were true at one time or another, but have since then been fixed. It is no surpise that that complained about issueswill get fixed. Listing them off in some big rant does not support your position very well), streaks are still breaking the game.

The issue is that currently, unlike ever before, barring the LRM+artemis issues that we had, ECM, bad netcode, bad hitboxes, and streaks being overpowered have combined to make a most dastardly brew, and that's why everybody is on edge. It happened just before Christmas and the devs were barely around to answer any pressing questions about it all. It was basically an entire month (and still ongoing until the 15th, and perhaps beyond if that patch offers no solutions) of being in the dark with Ravens breathing down everyone's throats, all the while a brand spanking new piece of equipment that alters the metagame so hard its like a shock to people's systems.

What really matters at this point is that the devs reckognize the issues (I'm sure they have), but the more important part is swiftly and expertly taking care of them, which I fear they may have some trouble with considering the combined nature of the issue. We need SSRM fixes, ECM changes (some would argue against that, I would strongly disagree), netcode issues (which have been a plague on this game for a while now), and hitbox tweaks (the Raven has some rather odd things going on with it that aren't entirely netcode related, or at least seems to at times).

[Serapth]

Orzorn, on 10 January 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

What really matters at this point is that the devs reckognize the issues (I'm sure they have)

And this is where the lack of communication comes in. Unlike you, I am not sure they have. That's what happens when you are left to guess.


The part that is gonzo is how easy some of these fixes should be... and we still wait for them. Make Streaks not always hit center torso... solved. Change the heat on ERPPC and Large Laser in the database, done. Put a premade on each side, done. A handful of the biggest gripes in the game at least band-aid fixed in what should be less than a lunch breaks work. Every patch that goes by and the low hanging fruit of fixes aren't addressed makes you lose a bit of confidence that they do in fact recognize the issue.

Edited by Serapth, 10 January 2013 - 02:09 PM.

[Orzorn]

Also, does anyone have a link to this "Tolkien's ECM post"? I'd love to read it.

[Orzorn]

Serapth, on 10 January 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

And this is where the lack of communication comes in. Unlike you, I am not sure they have. That's what happens when you are left to guess.


The part that is gonzo is how easy some of these fixes should be... and we still wait for them. Make Streaks not always hit center torso... solved. Change the heat on ERPPC and Large Laser in the database, done. Put a premade on each side, done. A handful of the biggest gripes in the game at least band-aid fixed in what should be less than a lunch breaks work. Every patch that goes by and the low hanging fruit of fixes aren't addressed makes you lose a bit of confidence that they do in fact recognize the issue.

Ah, see, when I said "recognize the issue", what I really was saying is that they understood that there was some sort of issue, not that they necessarily saw or realized what the particulars of the issue were, such as how they're currently planning to "buff" machine guns. I fear they do not realize just how dire the issues are with the machine gun, or that their buffs will not likely be enough to warrant taking 1.5 tons for a weapon that deals less than half the damage of a small laser in 10 seconds time.

[Homeless Bill]

Orzorn, on 10 January 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

Also, does anyone have a link to this "Tolkien's ECM post"? I'd love to read it.

Tolkien, on 08 January 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

Question 0 is about your definition of "best". Does best mean the one most liked by the community or is it still just the ones you feel like answering?

Question 1 is about ECM)
How was it considered balanced to introduce a 1.5 ton 2 slot piece of equipment that does all of the following?:

i) Counters Artemis
ii) Counters BAP
iii) Counters TAG bonuses and the whole system inside of 180m
iv) Counters NARC - a system which weighs more and requires real skill and teamwork to use
v) Counters other ECMs
vi) Destroys LRM locks (absent holding a TAG laser on a potentially lag shielded mech)
vii) Destroys SSRM locks (absent holding a TAG laser on a potentially lag shielded mech)
viii) Ruins information sharing via minimap
ix) Scrambles HUD display of enemies
x) is a better AMS than AMS itself
xi) Requires no exploding ammo
xii) Generates no heat
xiii) Costs less than a much less useful module by a factor of 15
xiv) Doesn't use up a weapon hardpoint

Going by tonnage and critical space the ECM should be about as useful as a small laser plus a regular heatsink.
Or a medium laser and a little armor,
Or an AMS and a ton of ammo
etc.

Here's a link to the existing unanswered question from 'ask the devs' 29:
http://mwomercs.com/...70#entry1598770
And another to the same in 'ask the devs' 29A:
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1640301

The former question has 230 likes at last count, while the latter has another 94, and neither have been addressed yet.


Question 2 is about game outcome statistics versus number of ECMs on each team:
Put simply, are the outcomes measured here representative of the current state of the game? If not, how far off were my results?
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1709146

tl:dr I gathered enough match outcome data that with >99.999% confidence (statistical not subjective) I can say that ECM superiority is a predictor of victory. Also I can say with >97% confidence that a team with more ECMs is at least 2x more likely to win than the team with less.

[Orzorn]

Thank you, Bill.

Yes, that is definitely a question I would enjoy seeing answered.

[hammerreborn]

Serapth, on 10 January 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

And this is where the lack of communication comes in. Unlike you, I am not sure they have. That's what happens when you are left to guess.

Not reading their responses does not mean a lack of communication. The entire command chair is ripe with information about upcoming changes and dates they should be implemented.

Quote

The part that is gonzo is how easy some of these fixes should be... and we still wait for them.

Easy doesn't mean balanced. Sure ECM could be changed to weigh 15 tons to cut down on ECM mechs, but that doesn't make it a great solution.

Quote

Make Streaks not always hit center torso... solved.

Umm...they don't. Devs have stated time and time again that it hits 5 locations, 2 shoulders, 2 hips, and CT.

Quote

Change the heat on ERPPC and Large Laser in the database, done.

They are doing this, but in a balanced fashion. Reducing the heat too much on ER PPCs and we'll see a million 6 ppc stalkers.

Quote

Put a premade on each side, done.

Matchmaking 3 is probably released next week.

Quote

A handful of the biggest gripes in the game at least band-aid fixed in what should be less than a lunch breaks work. Every patch that goes by and the low hanging fruit of fixes aren't addressed makes you lose a bit of confidence that they do in fact recognize the issue.

Balanced approaches and coding is harder than waving a magic wand.

[Protoculture]

EyeOne, on 10 January 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

We are the worst community in gaming history.

Your gaming experience must be limited to this game. I'm very sorry.

[Strucker]

hammerreborn, on 10 January 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

You're so adorable.

Thanks I always liked to think so.

BTW what I took from your post was rage and QQ

[repete]

Serapth, on 10 January 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

I know they are a young company, but that should make them more agile with their communications, not less so. To say nothing of professionalism.

I particularly liked the "[...we know how things should be and you don't...]".

[RynCage]

repete, on 10 January 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

I particularly liked the "[...we know how things should be and you don't...]".

That's what happens when you give every shmuck on your dev team free reign to post as they see fit. Pretty cute stuff.
PGI has some of the worst PR i've ever seen out of a company.

[xRaeder]

Heh. Is it bad that I don't know how to ignore someone on the forums?

[Solis Obscuri]

EyeOne, on 10 January 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

We are the worst community in gaming history.

Actually... no, we aren't.

And we definitely need a "Ask the Devs" drinking game!

[hammerreborn]

repete, on 10 January 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

I particularly liked the "[...we know how things should be and you don't...]".

Generally when you quote someone you should actually write what they said, or its not you know, a quote.

[Serapth]

xRaeder, on 10 January 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

Heh. Is it bad that I don't know how to ignore someone on the forums?

Learn, it makes life so much better.


Its a gigantic pain in the butt though. Go to Profile ->Forum Profile->Edit My Profile->Ignore Preferences.


Intuitive eh?

[Kristov Kerensky]

'I want answers NOW or this game is fail!!!!!!!!!!!!111!!!1!'

Did I miss anything?

What games are you folks playing where the dev team tells you everything they are doing, are THINKING about doing, and constantly answer each and every question you pose? I've been gaming for a long time, well over a decade, and I've seen 1 dev team do that in the past 18 years, Dynamix. They did that for Tribes early on, and then they learned why no one else DOES that and they stopped doing it. Really hurt the game too, hurt it SO badly that Sierra, their publisher, paid them to create Tribes 2! Yeah, they stopped talking to the community the way you folks are demanding PGI do and the game did great.

I've played a number of F2P games over the past few years, lots of stuff out South Korea especially, including LoL, and one thing they all tend to share is that the devs do NOT treat the community like a spoiled little child and answer every damn question and constantly keep them updated on everything they are thinking about, what they ate for lunch, what they are having for dinner and so on. They say 'we're releasing an update, it includes these changes, these new features/changed features, and these new/changed items' and that's it. They don't explain why, they don't listen to the whining on their forums, they create the game THEY are working on and if you like it, great, if you don't, so sorry, too bad, bye bye now! That also happens to be how most games that are NOT F2P are done as well.

Want to know why? Because we, the players of the game, have NO ******* clue how to build a balanced and fun game. Know how they know that's true? Cause YOU aren't making the game, they are.

Lets take 1 single thing in MWO that's a hot button right now, ECM. MOST of us have no problem with it and how it works, it just isn't that game changing to us. A FEW of you absolutely HATE it and foam at the mouth at the very mention of it, just see all the threads created by a handful of posters who are backed up by the same handful of posters creating more of the same threads. According to you, ECM ruined MWO, made the game totally unplayable and so on. I hate to tell you this, but when the same 10-15 people constantly say something and back each other up, that is NOT a majority, that's not even enough people to qualify as a minority as it's not even a full percentage point of the player count. It's a few very vocal people who want this piece of software to be built as THEY demand and to hell with anyone else, including the developers who are creating the software, it's not like they have a ******* clue right? After all, they didn't listen to YOU, so how could they have one? Right? I mean, YOU know best right?

There IS a section of the forums where a lot of the stuff you people WHINE about has been covered, you should take a few minutes to look at it some time...but that would mean less time pounding on your keyboards and telling PGI how stupid they are and how they are ******* up YOUR game right? Can't be having that, good gods no, then someone might think you don't really matter...

pssst...you don't.