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What Broke The Game More: Missiles Or Ecm?


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Poll: What Broke the Game More, LRM/SSRM Boating or ECM Without Netcode Fix? (205 member(s) have cast votes)

What Broke the Game More, SSRM/LRM Boating or ECM Without a Netcode Fix?

  1. Voted ECM Before a Netcode Fix (124 votes [60.49%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 60.49%

  2. SSRM/LRM Boating Without ECM (35 votes [17.07%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 17.07%

  3. Neither / I don't know / I don't care (46 votes [22.44%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 22.44%

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#21 SmoothCriminal

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 05:11 PM

View PostApoc1138, on 10 January 2013 - 04:57 PM, said:

i only have assaults and heavies, no ecm and no lagshield


I have a 3L and can absolutely confirm that they are over powered. Netcode/hit detection/hit boxes mean taking a raven down is very difficult unless you have streaks. You will also need counter ECM.

Personally, all TAG a residue of 3 seconds, in order to allow people to hit something moving at 120kph. Then allow the TAG to function at ranges within the ECM.

Or, you know, fix the netcode, but that seems to be out of the realms of possibility at the moment...

#22 TruePoindexter

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 05:18 PM

View PostSmoothCriminal, on 10 January 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:


I have a 3L and can absolutely confirm that they are over powered. Netcode/hit detection/hit boxes mean taking a raven down is very difficult unless you have streaks. You will also need counter ECM.

Personally, all TAG a residue of 3 seconds, in order to allow people to hit something moving at 120kph. Then allow the TAG to function at ranges within the ECM.

Or, you know, fix the netcode, but that seems to be out of the realms of possibility at the moment...


I land AC20 shots on Ravens... I sense that most people blaming net code are in fact bad shots.

#23 SmoothCriminal

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 05:24 PM

View PostTruePoindexter, on 10 January 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:


I land AC20 shots on Ravens... I sense that most people blaming net code are in fact bad shots.


That's both wrong and a little insulting. I've played games where a dead player has told me that my shots, that i saw connect, were actually missing due to lag. In all other online games the shots connect on the clientside, hence BF3 where you race to cover, get there, and then are taken down. Why should this game be any different?

#24 rgreat

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 05:25 PM

Answer is: Players.

#25 TruePoindexter

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 05:28 PM

View PostSmoothCriminal, on 10 January 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

That's both wrong and a little insulting. I've played games where a dead player has told me that my shots, that i saw connect, were actually missing due to lag. In all other online games the shots connect on the clientside, hence BF3 where you race to cover, get there, and then are taken down. Why should this game be any different?


You know that you dealt damage when the cross hair turns red and you see areas on the enemy light up. More often I actually see shots that visually look like they missed deal damage - sometimes even kill. So no it is neither wrong nor insulting - it's fact. Case in point here is a clean Raven RVN-3L kill that was pre AC speed boost: http://youtu.be/ICJ2Pb3ilJk?t=3m20s

EDIT: If you don't want to click the link here's the video just fast forward to 3:20


Edited by TruePoindexter, 10 January 2013 - 05:29 PM.


#26 Kousagi

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 05:29 PM

View PostSmoothCriminal, on 10 January 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:


That's both wrong and a little insulting. I've played games where a dead player has told me that my shots, that i saw connect, were actually missing due to lag. In all other online games the shots connect on the clientside, hence BF3 where you race to cover, get there, and then are taken down. Why should this game be any different?


Thats cause of the way the netcode is handled.. BF3, is a client side game, MWO is a Server side game. In BF3 a players lag makes their hit box float behind them. So say you are running for cover, and on your screen you get to cover and are safe. On my Screen however, you are still running and I put a round through your head, and you die. Now due to what my screen says, your screen will then say, you suddenly die due to a head shot while behind cover. Which is one of the flaws of client side.

Edit: and TurePointdexter, Your video proves the point of a lag shield. As if you notice your first AC 20 shot in that clip Hits visually but does no damage, the 2nd one hits because hes moving away from you in a strait line, so even if the hitbox is displaced forward a bit it does not matter, since hes moving in only one direction dead away from you, so not hard to hit that shot.

Edited by Kousagi, 10 January 2013 - 05:37 PM.


#27 BerryChunks

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 05:29 PM

View PostKaijin, on 10 January 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

People were laser 'boating' and ballistics 'boating' too, and still are. This 'boating' term is meaningless. Several canon mechs in fact do carry multiples of the same weapon.

Also, your poll doesn't include an option for 'ECM broke the game full stop', so I cannot vote. LRMs never broke the game, except for during the 48 hour Festival of Artemis.


A very, very small number of canon mechs boated anything other than missiles (laserback). Most boaters were missile boaters, and even then weren't ridiculous with 50 LRM 20's on them.

Quote

Battle Tech Forces


Not every ’Mech is appropriate for every type of scenario,
so match the machine to the mission when choosing
BattleMechs. This section will help you do that by providing a
feel for the strengths and weakness of the various units available
in BattleTech. This information is particularly helpful when
you get to choose the ’Mechs you will use for a scenario, but it
also can help you make the best use of your forces when you are
assigned a particular mix of ’Mechs, all of which are not necessarily
ideal for the task at hand. The best commanders make the
most of what they have and expertly fit square pegs into round
holes.
For the sake of discussion, we have divided the ’Mechs
available in BattleTech into seven broad categories: scouts, strikers,
skirmishers, brawlers, missile boats, snipers and juggernauts.
The ’Mechs assigned to each category are deployed in a similar
fashion by virtue of their movement capabilities and weapons
complements. Each category description provides a discussion
of the characteristics of ’Mechs included in that category and
their use in game play, followed by brief comments on each
specific ’Mech. If players purchase any of the various technical
readouts that include many other BattleMech designs, they only
need to compare each design’s relative characteristics to those
found here to find in which category they belong.
The House name that appears in parentheses after each
’Mech description indicates the Successor State that most commonly
uses the ’Mech.
Scouts
These extremely fast ’Mechs rush ahead of the main force,
using speed to achieve their objectives and avoid the enemy.
These types of ’Mechs are most useful in campaign settings
where intelligence-gathering is important, but they also can be
useful in standard scenarios. Use them when you need to reach
an objective quickly, such as “capture the flag” games, or when
you expect the opposition to field very fast ’Mechs.
Though protected only by light armor, scouts are not
defenseless. Moving at their maximum speed makes scouts
virtually invulnerable because their opponents must overcome
an impressive target movement modifier to make a successful
weapons attack against them. Those scouts that can jump
should do so as often as is practical. Head for the heaviest
woods available and use them for cover, or move into a dead
zone behind a hill. It’s more important to protect a scout from
attack than to get in a strike with its meager weaponry. Hold
your fire until you have the opportunity to strike an opponent in
the back, where even a relatively weak attack can penetrate thin
rear armor and score critical hits.
Scouts work best when teamed up with medium and heavy
’Mechs that can provide covering fire and present more threatening
targets for the opponent to attack; a fast-moving Spider is
likely to be ignored in favor of a stationary Catapult. Ideally, this
match-up buys the scout the time it needs to move into position
for attacks on the enemy’s rear.
SDR-5V Spider
The Spider is the fastest ’Mech available in the Classic
BattleTech game—in fact, speed is its only real asset. With little
armor and only two medium lasers, it is not designed for heavy
combat. The Spider should jump at least 7 hexes each turn, into
woods whenever possible. (Marik)
ASN-21 Assassin
Though it is better armed than the Spider, the Assassin still
lacks enough weaponry to be considered a useful strike ’Mech.
In fact, the Assassin’s main weakness is a lack of firepower, as
well as flimsy leg armor. To counter these weaknesses, keep the
Assassin moving and take partial cover whenever possible to
protect the fragile legs. Try to “stab” your opponent in the back
in keeping with the ’Mech’s namesake. (Davion)
CDA-2A Cicada
Unlike most other scout ’Mechs, the Cicada cannot jump.
It is best used in open terrain where it can use its considerable
running speed to circle behind likely targets. The Cicada will not
overheat even if it constantly runs and fires. Its sturdy structure
allows it to hold up well for a scout ’Mech, and it can easily afford
to lose both arms to enemy attacks with no loss of effectiveness.
Rather than hiding in woods, this ’Mech should continually
move at high speed. (Marik)
CLNT-2-3T Clint
The Clint’s autocannon gives it an impressive attack range
for a ’Mech of its size and speed. To take advantage of this asset,
keep the Clint moving away from the enemy, using its mobility
to stay out of range of the opponent’s short-range weapons.
Snipe away with the autocannon until that weapon runs out of
ammo, then close in to attack with the lasers or flee the battlefield.
(Liao)
Strikers
Not as fast as scouts, these ’Mechs sacrifice some speed
for a heavier complement of close-range weapons. They dash
in, stand toe-to-toe with the enemy, then unload a massive barrage
of weapons fire. Commanders often send an entire lance of
strikers into the midst of the enemy, ordering them to concentrate
fire on a single enemy ’Mech and thus eliminating a medium
or heavy ’Mech in a few turns. Players should be prepared to
sacrifice these ’Mechs to enemy fire in exchange for a significant
damage against enemy ’Mechs. Use bold tactics when deploying
strikers; bold strategies get the best results.
Deploy strikers with heavier ’Mechs that can provide longrange
covering fire, but make sure these ’Mechs can keep up
with the striker ’Mechs—both types of ’Mechs need to stick
together to distract the enemy. Any of the ’Mechs in the skirmishers
group would serve this purpose. To survive long enough
to close with their opponents, strikers need to keep moving,
staying in woods or behind partial cover whenever possible
until they reach medium or short range to the target. Then let
‘em have it!

COM-2D Commando
Though it lacks the speed of some other light ’Mechs, the
Commando wields the firepower of ’Mechs twice its size. It gains
this advantage at a cost; it mounts only short-range weapons
and a limited supply of ammunition. In addition, its light armor
protection means it cannot stand up to much punishment.
If employed properly, however, the Commando can be a very
effective quick-strike ’Mech. (Steiner)
JR7-D Jenner
The Jenner has excellent firepower for a light ’Mech. This,
coupled with its tremendous speed, make the Jenner a good
’Mech for blitzkrieg missions. Jenners are perhaps used best
in groups, where they can deliver massed laser fire against an
unsuspecting enemy, then quickly flee the front lines before the
enemy rips their light armor to shreds. This ’Mech can overheat
if it fires and jumps, so try to use running movement during the
turn of attack. (Kurita)
Skirmishers
Skirmishers are versatile ’Mechs with the mobility, armor
and firepower to take the fight to the enemy and inflict serious
damage. Unlike most other types of ’Mechs described here, skirmishers
can be used in a variety of ways depending on the situation
at hand and the terrain.
Commanders commonly use these ’Mechs in tandem with
lighter or slower ’Mechs to provide mobile fire support. The skirmishers
harass the enemy forces while the special-use ’Mechs
maneuver into position. Skirmishers often draw heavy recon
duty, probing deep into enemy territory where lighter ’Mechs
would fall to enemy attacks before they could return to friendly
lines with intelligence on the enemy positions. For scenarios
involving breaking through enemy-held positions, skirmishers
offer many advantages.
Skirmishers should not be sent on missions of direct assault.
Their firepower, while respectable, is not sufficient to take out
heavy or assault ’Mechs quickly. To succeed in a direct assault,
skirmishers need support from snipers and/or missile boats.
Combined, such ’Mechs can take out heavy opposition with no
problem.
HER-2S Hermes II
A fast ’Mech with good armor protection, the Hermes II lacks
substantial firepower, making it best used against targets lighter
than itself. Because the Hermes II has the speed to keep up with
light ’Mechs and carries far more armor than most light ’Mechs,
it can survive long enough to destroy them in running battles.
When faced with strong opposition, use its speed to keep the
Hermes II at medium to long range and fire the autocannon.
Don’t give in to the temptation to close with heavy ’Mechs; you
won’t last long against them. (Marik)
GHR-5H Grasshopper
One of the best all-around BattleMechs in the Classic
BattleTech Universe Book, the Grasshopper fights well in any
combat situation. Enemies often underestimate the threat it
poses because it lacks powerful weapons such as PPCs or heavy
autocannon. Because the ’Mech actually carries significant firepower
and the heat sinks to use it, you can use the ’Mech’s perceived
failings to your advantage. The Grasshopper rarely faces
heat or ammunition problems, allowing you to risk difficult
shots. Try to target weaker enemy ’Mechs by jumping into range
and firing. (Liao, Davion)
Brawlers
These ’Mechs lack the mobility of skirmishers but make up
for their lesser speed with longer range weapons and/or heavier
armor. These ’Mechs often form the backbone of an assault
force or act as mobile escorts for the painfully slow juggernauts
that often comprise the main punch of an assault.
Although these ’Mechs cannot fight effective running battles,
they are well suited to a variety of other tasks. They shine
in defensive battles or in attacks against stationary targets, and
can use their slight advantage in maneuverability to take out
enemy assault ’Mechs. Two or three of these ’Mechs should be
able to outflank and eliminate any one slow enemy ’Mech. Use
them to flush snipers and missile boats from their positions.
ENF-4R Enforcer
The Enforcer is a solid all-around BattleMech. Its two main
weapons share the same range profile, allowing it to make concentrated,
effective attacks on the enemy. The Enforcer’s jump
jets make it fairly mobile, allowing it to close in and use its
weapons effectively. If need be, such mobility can also be used
to keep faster ’Mechs from easily out-flanking it or to quickly
get behind slower ’Mechs. (Davion)
DRG-1N Dragon
The excellent mobility and armor of the heavy Dragon come
at the cost of significant weaponry—most medium ’Mechs can
out-gun the Dragon. Against slow, heavy juggernauts such as
the Hunchback and Cyclops, use the Dragon’s superior movement
to keep out of range of the enemy’s larger weapons.
Against lighter ’Mechs, move the Dragon in to make effective
physical attacks. A full-speed charge attack from a Dragon can
destroy a light ’Mech in one fell swoop. (Kurita)
Missile Boats
The class of BattleMechs known as “missile boats” are
armed primarily with long-range missiles. This allows them to
stay safely far away from enemy forces and rain down devastating
fire with little risk of being attacked themselves. To make the
most of these ’Mechs, accompanying forces must move forward
and prevent the enemy from closing in, a task usually accomplished
by skirmishers or strike lances. Move each of your missile
boats into a “nest;” a good firing position far from the enemy
position (about one mapsheet away). Ideally this spot should
have woods for cover and at least one level of height to provide
line of sight to most of the ’Mechs on the board. Hex 1303 on
the BattleTech map is popular for this purpose, especially if the

enemy is in the direction of Hex 1403; the attacking ’Mech gains
partial cover from the hill.
WTH-1 Whitworth
Colloquially known as the “Worthless,” the much-maligned
Whitworth can be quite effective if used properly. The main reason
for the ’Mech’s bad reputation is its lack of focus. Armed
with a pair of LRM launchers and three medium lasers, the
Whitworth carries two distinct groups of weapons. Only ten heat
sinks means it can’t fire all of its weapons at once anyway. To
best take advantage of this ’Mech capabilities, use the ’Mech’s
jump capability to move it into a good firing “nest.” Don’t worry
about firing in the turn you move, because your ’Mech will overheat
and the shot will probably miss. From your position, concentrate
on firing your LRM’s at distant targets. If any enemies
close within the LRM’s minimum range, the Whitworth’s armor,
good for a ’Mech its size, allows it to switch to the medium lasers
rather than fleeing. (Davion, Kurita)
TBT-5N Trebuchet
The Trebuchet can be characterized as a heavier version of
the Whitworth, though it lacks the lighter unit’s jump capability.
Because the Trebuchet’s missile racks are larger, it is a better
barrage ’Mech. Without jump jets, though, it takes a little longer
to move into firing position. The Trebuchet also suffers from a
insufficient supply of ammunition. If it runs out of missiles during
battle, it can close with the enemy and use its medium lasers
to stay in the fight, in much the same way as brawler ’Mechs.
(Marik)
DV-6M Dervish
In some ways, the Dervish is more like a skirmisher than a
missile boat, but two factors place it in this category. Its maneuverability
allows it to move quickly into firing position, and its
severe overheating problems prevent it from using all of its
weapons in the way a good skirmisher must. To use this ’Mech
effectively, try to keep the Dervish away from the enemy and
functioning as a lightweight missile boat until its LRM ammo is
spent. At that point, bring it in to brawl with the enemy as short
range. Ample supplies of SRM ammo allow the Dervish to slug it
out as long as it can survive. (Davion)
CPLT-C1 Catapult
The heavy Catapult exemplifies the missile boat ’Mech, with
jump capability to move into a good position and a potent pair
of missile racks. The Catapult’s main advantage over other missile
boats is its fifteen heat sinks, which allow the ’Mech to fire
most of its weapons and jump without risking overheating. The
Catapult’s limited supply of ammo means it will ultimately have
to close with the enemy, but its heavy armor and four medium
lasers make it a good close-range fighter as well. (Liao)
Snipers
Though slow-moving, these ’Mechs carry powerful, longrange
weaponry. Because they don’t have to close with the
enemy to fight effectively, however, their lack of speed represents
only a minor weakness. Most sniper ’Mechs set up a “sniper
nest” on the battlefield, in much the same way as missile boats
take up and maintain a strategic position. Unlike missile boats,
however, snipers are armed with direct-fire weaponry and cannot
attack from hiding. To compensate for this necessity, choose
a sniper nest far from the enemy force that provides cover in
the form of woods and/or Partial Cover. As the enemy advances
on your position, attack while staying stationary. As additional
protection, assign striker or brawler ’Mechs to keep fast enemy
’Mechs away from the snipers
PNT-9R Panther
The Panther is truly fearsome for such a small BattleMech.
Its Lord’s Light PPC can deal serious damage from a distance,
and the ’Mech carries sufficient heat sinks to maintain a steady
barrage of fire while on the move. Heavy armor and jump capability
round out this eminently useful ’Mech’s capabilities. In
fact, the only drawback to the Panther’s all-around performance
is its slow movement rate. The Panther is best suited to fights in
confined terrain, such as forests and cities. In open terrain, the
Panther should keep its distance, using its range advantage to
the fullest. Because the Panther is slow, faster ’Mechs should
provide short-range covering fire. (Kurita)
VND-1R Vindicator
The Capellan Confederation loves this ’Mech for good reason.
An excellent balance of firepower, armor and heat sinks
make the Vindicator one of the best medium BattleMechs
around. Unlike many ’Mechs its size, the Vindicator can use
jumping movement and keep up a sustained barrage. To counteract
the inherent inaccuracy of firing while jumping, place
an Experienced MechWarrior in the Vindicator. If piloted by a
Regular MechWarrior, this ’Mech is better off standing still like
other snipers, because it will have a much better chance of hitting
its target. (Liao)
JM6-S JagerMech
The JagerMech is under-gunned for a heavy ’Mech and
has paper-thin armor, especially in the back. Its weapons inflict
relatively minor damage but do posses exceptional range.
Combined with a slow movement rate, this ’Mech is suited
only for sniper duty well behind the main line of combat. Find
a good sniper nest for the JagerMech and leave it there; ample
heat sinks and a healthy supply of ammo allow the JagerMech
to fire continuously. Position a few friendly ’Mechs in the area to
prevent enemies from closing with the JagerMech, because it is
essentially helpless up close. (Davion, Liao)
ZEU-6S Zeus
The Zeus represents a poor compromise between speed,
firepower and armor. Much like the smaller Dragon, the Zeus’s
large engine leaves little room for armaments. Keep it far from
the enemy and use its array of long-range weapons to full effect.
The Zeus cannot overheat, allowing for longer sustained fire
than ’Mechs such as the Awesome or Banshee, even when on the
move. (Steiner)

WS-8Q Awesome
The Awesome truly deserves its name. It is slow moving, to
be sure, but the massed firepower of its three PPCs more than
makes up for any lack of speed. At the beginning of a scenario,
maneuver the Awesome into shooting position on a hill or other
appropriate “sniper nest.” Then let it stand still and pound at
the opposition with its three massive weapons. It has enough
heat sinks to fire all its weapons continuously for several turns
without overheating. The most common tactic for this ’Mech
is to fire all three PPCs for two turns, bringing the Awesome’s
heat scale to 4, then fire only two to cool down. In this way, the
pilot achieves maximum firepower without any loss of mobility.
(Marik)
BNC-3E Banshee
A massive engine and thick armor plating leave little room
for weaponry on this unpopular assault ’Mech. When using a
Banshee as part of your force, you must capitalize on its strengths
or it will end up being a 95-ton paperweight. Against a slowmoving
enemy, use the Banshee as a standard sniper, gunning
at long range while your opponents advance. If the enemies are
fast, they will probably close in quickly to negate your range
advantage. In this situation, use the Banshee in the role for which
it was originally intended: an ultra-heavy close-assault vehicle. If
you face an enemy ’Mech 5 or 6 hexes away across clear terrain,
forget about firing weapons; go for the charge attack! A Banshee
running at full speed can seriously damage or even destroy an
opposing ’Mech with a single charge attack. (Davion, Steiner)
Juggernauts
Juggernauts are slow-moving ’Mechs with excellent shortrange
firepower. Lacking long-range weapons or speed, juggernauts
must rely on brute force to maneuver their way to within
attack distance of the enemy. These ’Mechs are usually very well
armored so that they can withstand heavy fire as they slowly
advance toward the enemy. In theory, this armor is sufficient to
allow them to get in a few successful shots—which is all they
need to take out their opponents. Team up juggernauts with skirmishers
or strikers as escorts, assigning the smaller ’Mechs to flank
the enemy ’Mechs and threaten them with attacks against their
backs, essentially shepherding them toward your juggernauts!
The three juggernauts shown below all carry the massive
AC/20. The most damaging weapon in the Classic BattleTech
Introductory Rulebook, the AC/20 inflicts 20 points of damage to
a single location when it hits. This is enough to penetrate the
armor of most ’Mechs and can even destroy a light ’Mech with a
single attack! Because this powerful weapon has a range of only
9 hexes, most enemies will take great pains to position themselves
exactly 10 hexes away from a ’Mech carrying this autocannon.
To counter this, use the juggernauts against opponents
armed with weapons of similar range profile, such as medium
lasers or SRMs. These opponents will have to close to within
range of your AC/20 if they want to attack.
HBK-4G Hunchback
The Hunchback can deliver devastating short-range firepower
with its autocannon, provided it can get close enough
to the target. Its back-up weapons are also short-range, and so
the Hunchback needs to get in close to have any effect at all.
For this reason, it is best used in defensive situations where the
opponent has no choice but to come to you or at least try to
move past you. Try to anticipate when the enemy ’Mech will be
in range of your cannon and plan to remain stationary or walk
(if necessary) that turn so that your shot will be as accurate as
possible. The Hunchback doesn’t have much ammo to spare and
usually gets only a few chances at a good shot. Make each one
count! (Marik)
CP-10-Z Cyclops
Unlike most BattleMechs its size, the Cyclops gives up
armor protection in favor of speed and firepower. Unfortunately
the Cyclops carries mainly short-range weaponry, so it must
advance close to the enemy, exposing itself to fire, to attack. To
help keep the Cyclops alive, keep it moving. Try to move at least
3 hexes per turn so your opponent has a to-hit modifier against
you. Like the Hunchback, the Cyclops is best suited to defensive
missions where the enemy forces come to you. It can fire away
with its LRMs until the targets are within 9 hexes and then let
loose with its short-range weapons. With an ample 20 rounds
for its AC/20, the Cyclops should attack with that weapon if
even the smallest chance exists of the shot hitting its target.
You should never pass up the opportunity to inflict so much
damage. (Davion)
AS7-D Atlas
Don’t tell your opponent, but the Atlas isn’t as scary as it
looks. This massive ’Mech is painfully slow and carries an arsenal
of exclusively short-range firepower, with the exception of
a single LRM-20 rack. In the right situation, however, the Atlas
can be a devastating weapon. Like all juggernauts, it is at home
in a defensive role. In any other situation, run as fast as you can
toward the enemy. Don’t worry about taking cover; that will just
slow you down. The Atlas has more armor than any other ’Mech
in the game and can easily withstand whatever your opponent
throws at it. Try to move adjacent to an enemy ’Mech whenever
possible and make a punch attack instead of using medium
lasers; a punch inflicts twice as much damage and generates no
heat! (Kurita)


^ Ripped straight from the introductory rulebook, which you can download for free from Battletech Official Site.

Here's an example of a "missile boat".

http://www.sarna.net...oat_BattleMechs

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Trebuchet

Quote

Armament



The primary weapons on the Trebuchet are a pair of Zeus LRM-15 launchers in its right torso and left arm. One ton of ammo per launcher allows it to "soften up" an opponent, though not truly cripple them, at ranges where they cannot return fire. Backing these up for close range work is a trio of Magna Mk II Medium Lasers, two in its right arm and one in its left, which provide the Trebuchet with firepower when the LRM ammunition has been depleted. These also discourages lighter 'Mechs from attempting to intercept it, and the ten heat sinks allows the 'Mech to fire these continuously when traveling at a cruising speed of 54 km/h. The Trebuchet is also proficient as a brawler, though its physical blows lack the same weight as heavier 'Mechs.


Heat generation and dissipation mod based on speed isn't a factor in game yet.
Heat nerfing has been done to limit "boating", because for some reason people don't like it.
Armor has been doubled for people to survive "boating", because for some reason people don't like dying instantly.

These three factors have changed the weapon damage to armor protection dynamic, on the one hand limiting boating, on the other hand encouraging it as the only effective way to kill others, with speed and massed weapons of a specific object.

This above is further compounded by the fact that they decided to allow torso twist and mech turn speed to be variably based on engine size. Slower engines not only make your top speed lower, they massively penalize your turning speed, so anyone faster than you can get back shots in. On the other hand, putting heavier and heavier engines in allows you to turn on a dime just as well as light mechs, meaning that your "capture rate", the rate at which you can get an enemy within your crosshairs for lock and fire, is MUCH higher. This would actually be deadly to Light Mechs as it is right now, except that the "Lagshield" protects them and so protects us from noticing this.

So the rules of the game are as follows:

-Pick the biggest engine you can, not just for speed but for capturing enemy mechs. (awesomes, atlas, catapults, that can turn in less than 2 seconds from facing the other way to facing me in my light mech and shooting the crap out of me are constants).


-Pick a selection of weapons that has the best punch, heat efficiency, and can be massed due to hardpoint spam allowing them to be packed in multiples, otherwise you'll never get through enemy armor.

People call this Mech Brawler Online. I call it Speed Brawler Online.

Without restrictions beyond simple "weapon STAT balancing", the game will always be stale and uniform. How do I know this? Look at my sig.

Further examples of "terrible stock mechs", which Battletech was designed around.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Shootist

Quote

Armament

The Shootist has a top speed of 64.8 km/h, giving it an average level of mobility for a heavy 'Mech. The 'Mech has thirteen double heat sinks that allow the Shootist to dissipate the waste heat that is produced by its heavy weapons payload. The Shootist carries twelve tons of MV Ferro-Fibrous armor with CASE to protect the 'Mech in the event of an ammunition explosion.
The Shootist is armed to engage an enemy at various ranges. The only long-range weapon on the 'Mech is a Blankenburg ER Large Laser that has an effective range of five hundred and seventy meters. For medium to close range combat, the Shootist carries a devastating Deathgiver Autocannon/20 which is capable of downing most light and even some medium 'Mechs in a single salvo. Finally, for point blank defense, the 'Mech has two Blankenburg Medium Pulse Lasers and a Dinatech Mark III Small Laser.


http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hermes_II



Quote

Armament

The primary weapon on the Hermes II is an Oriente Autocannon/5, which gives it a respectable reach on the battlefield. As secondary weapons, the Hermes II carries an Irian Weapons Works Medium Laser for anti-'Mech combat as well as an Olympian Flamer, which gives it a good deterrent against infantry attacks.


http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Enforcer

Quote

Armament

With a top speed of 64.8 km/h and a jumping distance of up to one hundred and twenty meters, the Enforcer is a very mobile 'Mech and an ideal city fighter. For protection, the Enforcer has nine tons of Starshield Armor, weaker than average along the back to enhance frontal coverage.[2]
The Enforcer's primary weapon is a Federated Autocannon/10 complemented by a ChisComp 43 Large Laser, both give the Enforcer respectable intermediate range firepower, though only a single ton of autocannon reloads is carried. Finally, to round out the design, the Enforcer carries a ChisComp 32 Small Laser for close range combat.[5]


Of course, none of this would be complete without some assault mech builds for reference.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mauler



Quote

Armament

The Mauler is armed with four Imperator Smoothie-2 Autocannon/2s as its longest ranged primary weapons. Individually, the damage the AC/2s deal is insignificant, but together they can steadily whittle away armor at extreme range. The 'Mech also carries two Shigunga LRM-15 launchers, adding much needed punch to the extreme reach of its four autocannons. The 'Mech also carries two Victory Nickel Alloy ER Large Lasers for added long range punch.
While the Mauler is outfitted with CASE to protect its vulnerable ammunition bays, its heavily ballistic and missile based weapons complement forces reliance on secure supply lines to properly satiate its weaponry's voracious appetite for ammunition.


http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Highlander



Quote

Armament

The Highlander carries a weapons mix that is more at home when fighting a ranged battle, but when the ranges close the Highlander has the right equipment for the job. The primary weapon is a M-7 Gauss Rifle that is capable of stripping armor off of an enemy a ton at a time. The Gauss is backed up at long ranges by a Holly-20 LRM-20 launcher. For close range work, it carries two Harmon Starclass Medium Lasers and a Holly-6 SRM-6 launcher. Two tons of ammo for the gauss rifle, LRM and SRM launchers each provide good endurance while the use of CASE grants added production. Low heat buildup from the weapons allows for a nearly continuous barrage without taxing the twelve heat sinks, though pilots must still exhibit caution




Quote

Armament

The Striker is built using rugged, off-the-shelf technologies that allow it to stand up to a great deal of punishment and enable easy repair. The Striker has a top speed of 64.8 km/h that is provided by a Pitban 320 Fusion engine. For protection, the Striker carries thirteen and a half tons of armor which is an average amount of protection for a 'Mech of the Striker's size. Finally, to dissipate the heat from its arsenal, the Striker has fifteen heat sinks.
The Striker has an arsenal that is capable of engaging an enemy at a variety of ranges. The primary long-range weapons on the Striker are a HellStar PPC and a Pontiac Light Autocannon/5. These are backed up by a Defiance B3L Large Laser that is capable of engaging enemies at medium to short ranges. Finally, for close range defense, the Striker has three Hellion-b II Medium Lasers.


So, what is more interesting? A game where each mech carries different weapon systems and they can all be used effectively or ineffectively? Or a Game of "Trading Cheeses", where you blindly hardcounter someone else's cheese build based on what you dropped into a match with?

Even in real life, advanced combat systems don't use "50 machine guns". They Use a big weapon or two, a smaller weapon or two, and that's it.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/T-90#India

Quote

T-90 tanks featuring 2A46M 125 mm smoothbore tank gun, NSV 12.7 mm AA machine gun and PKT 7.62 mm coaxial machine gun.


I don't see "featuring 10 AA machine guns" there.

Edited by BerryChunks, 10 January 2013 - 05:42 PM.


#28 Imperius

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 05:32 PM

ECM = free to only brawl mode. :) yup took watching where your next point of cover was out of the game.

Edited by Imperius, 10 January 2013 - 05:33 PM.


#29 MadcatX

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 05:39 PM

View PostBerryChunks, on 10 January 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:


Without restrictions beyond simple "weapon STAT balancing", the game will always be stale and uniform. How do I know this? Look at my sig.



Indeed,,,, your experience with Front Mission and Mech Commander make you an expert in the field of game development.

Get off the podium and just come down to be with the rest of us regular disgruntled gamers.

#30 Solis Obscuri

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 05:39 PM

ECM. Even at the peak of the AWS-8R LRM-boat days (when LRMs had miserable accuracy unless you were on the highest hill on the map but did ludicrous damage if they hit) or the CPLT-A1 Streakcat days (terrible to run into in a brawler Hunchie, free XP in a brawler Atlas), those systems weren't as influential as ECM.

Worse, now that LOLOPECM is here, even more people are boating SSRM builds (provided they have ECM or a teammate with it), and AS7-D-DC Artemis LRM boats (now 100% free ammo thanks to the stupid R&R change) are miserable to counter if you don't have ECM yourself - especially if the enemy team has multiple ECMs, and you can't tell what to hide behind to break LoS. All existing imbalances are still there and exacerbated for everyone not running the FotM faceroll -3L/D-DC builds.

#31 SmoothCriminal

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 05:39 PM

View PostTruePoindexter, on 10 January 2013 - 05:28 PM, said:


You know that you dealt damage when the cross hair turns red and you see areas on the enemy light up. More often I actually see shots that visually look like they missed deal damage - sometimes even kill. So no it is neither wrong nor insulting - it's fact. Case in point here is a clean Raven RVN-3L kill that was pre AC speed boost: http://youtu.be/ICJ2Pb3ilJk?t=3m20s

EDIT: If you don't want to click the link here's the video just fast forward to 3:20





I understand that, and when I'm using a laser to drag i can combat bad net code. But when im judging with a one shot weapon, i really dont want to miss 3-4 times to gauge the other person's lag + my own. I don't know, maybe I'm being entitled, but i want to be able to see a mech be hit, and see the damage transfer.

Kudos for your prowess at combating the lagshield though, I've had a few lucky shots but surely you must agree that mostly this a problem with the game? How about any novices who are completely unfamiliar with the way that the lag shield works?

Personally I think it should be fixed.

#32 TruePoindexter

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 05:40 PM

View PostKousagi, on 10 January 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

Edit: and TurePointdexter, Your video proves the point of a lag shield. As if you notice your first AC 20 shot in that clip Hits visually but does no damage, the 2nd one hits because hes moving away from you in a strait line, so even if the hitbox is displaced forward a bit it does not matter, since hes moving in only one direction dead away from you, so not hard to hit that shot.


Watch again - the shot you are referring to hit him in the right leg. I actually fired three times - first when he was right in front of me but I timed it wrong and missed. Second shot he was moving near perpendicular to me and I fired with substantial lead hitting him in the right leg. Final shot was at range with him moving at a nice flatter angle with the shot landing squarely CTR and killing him.

#33 BerryChunks

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 05:53 PM

I'd like to note this point of interest: The Highlander's flavor text tells us that a gauss rifle can strip 1 ton of armor off at a time, but that's on the old Battletech armor and damage values.

That just isn't true in this game. it strips 1/2 ton off. To strip a whole ton off, you have to fire twice, and to do that much damage to a single spot, you have to hit the same spot twice. This effectively makes gauss rifle realistically a 7.5 damage weapon by comparison.

View PostMadcatX, on 10 January 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:


Indeed,,,, your experience with Front Mission and Mech Commander make you an expert in the field of game development.

Get off the podium and just come down to be with the rest of us regular disgruntled gamers.


don't be stupid. I was there when MW3 turned into Streak or Medium Laser fest. I was there when Chromehounds turned into chicken leg Howitzer clone wars. Those games died from that. I have more knowledge, more education, and better critical thinking than you. Take your inferiority complex somewhere else.

I know you think experience doesn't matter, but that's why you still work at the local gas station.

Edited by BerryChunks, 10 January 2013 - 05:58 PM.


#34 TruePoindexter

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 05:56 PM

View PostSmoothCriminal, on 10 January 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

Kudos for your prowess at combating the lagshield though, I've had a few lucky shots but surely you must agree that mostly this a problem with the game? How about any novices who are completely unfamiliar with the way that the lag shield works?

Personally I think it should be fixed.


Being harsh the fact is people need to learn to play. "Lag shield" or no people need to learn to lead their targets and fire deliberately. I do agree that the requirement ideally should be removed and given some of the awesome networking I've seen go into modern games I have no reason to believe it won't be - these things just take time. The fact is though that it is hard to hit a fast moving target regardless of lag and at least for me (a west coast NA player with an average ping well below 100ms) the amount of lead required to compensate for lag is actually fairly small.

EDIT: I'd like to add that I do think the issue is real for non-NA players. However the devs have already stated they are looking into regional servers come release.

Edited by TruePoindexter, 10 January 2013 - 05:58 PM.


#35 BerryChunks

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 06:02 PM

View PostTruePoindexter, on 10 January 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:


Being harsh the fact is people need to learn to play. "Lag shield" or no people need to learn to lead their targets and fire deliberately. I do agree that the requirement ideally should be removed and given some of the awesome networking I've seen go into modern games I have no reason to believe it won't be - these things just take time. The fact is though that it is hard to hit a fast moving target regardless of lag and at least for me (a west coast NA player with an average ping well below 100ms) the amount of lead required to compensate for lag is actually fairly small.

EDIT: I'd like to add that I do think the issue is real for non-NA players. However the devs have already stated they are looking into regional servers come release.


I understand how to lead lagshield, it still degrades the effectiveness of lasers and ballistics compared to locking missiles, which makes L and B seem underpowered to M. You must accept that fact or we won't be going anywhere in this discussion.

#36 Kousagi

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 06:05 PM

View PostTruePoindexter, on 10 January 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:


Being harsh the fact is people need to learn to play. "Lag shield" or no people need to learn to lead their targets and fire deliberately. I do agree that the requirement ideally should be removed and given some of the awesome networking I've seen go into modern games I have no reason to believe it won't be - these things just take time. The fact is though that it is hard to hit a fast moving target regardless of lag and at least for me (a west coast NA player with an average ping well below 100ms) the amount of lead required to compensate for lag is actually fairly small.

EDIT: I'd like to add that I do think the issue is real for non-NA players. However the devs have already stated they are looking into regional servers come release.


You are acting as if there is no lag shield even for good ping players. Its there, it exists. As a Light pilot myself, I notice it on me, and other people, and I'm a US player. Both people can be 30 ping and they still will get a lag shield, its all based on the server, and movement. PGI even says theres one, and they be working on the fix.

Also, what Awesome networking game are ya talking of? Cause if its other FPS games they don't have the best of netcode either at times, Lag still kills them pretty good. Its just they all use Client side hit detection, which kinda hides the lag from people.

#37 AlexWildeagle

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 06:05 PM

another amusing thread. Which do I like bettter:

1) Standing behind cover watching a sky full of missiles going back and forth, waiting. Watching heavy mechs trying to move from one cover point to another and disintegrating in less then 30 seconds to streams of missiles. Where eventually the winner is whomever has the most missiles. Where "tactics" are sitting there in an LRM boat waiting for an enemy to poke their head out.

Or

2) LRM boats now have to manuever, tag and narc actually have a point. Direct fire weapons are actually useable as mechs can manuever and flank enemy positions. LRMs have a place, but not as mech melters but as their original purpose which was to remove tons of enemy armor softening them up for your frontline mechs. Where "Tactics" now involve manuevering, flanking and cornering your enemy.

2 involves multiple mech types in roles. With #1 you might as well just design an artillery game or drop the a bomb game.

#38 TruePoindexter

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 06:08 PM

View PostBerryChunks, on 10 January 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:


I understand how to lead lagshield, it still degrades the effectiveness of lasers and ballistics compared to locking missiles, which makes L and B seem underpowered to M. You must accept that fact or we won't be going anywhere in this discussion.


This is very true and why people argue that SSRM's are intended to counter fast mechs. This will remain true lag or no for the exact same reason - it's hard to hit fast moving targets. Homing weapons will always be the preferred weapon since you do not have to do anything but achieve the missile lock to begin with.

People however pretend that it is impossible to hit fast targets with non-homing weapons however which is just flat false. It is very possible.

#39 TruePoindexter

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 06:14 PM

View PostKousagi, on 10 January 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

You are acting as if there is no lag shield even for good ping players. Its there, it exists. As a Light pilot myself, I notice it on me, and other people, and I'm a US player. Both people can be 30 ping and they still will get a lag shield, its all based on the server, and movement. PGI even says theres one, and they be working on the fix.

Also, what Awesome networking game are ya talking of? Cause if its other FPS games they don't have the best of netcode either at times, Lag still kills them pretty good. Its just they all use Client side hit detection, which kinda hides the lag from people.


No I did not act like it doesn't exist. I acknowledged it though stated that the extent to which it exists is in fact overblown. I come from playing MW3 back in the day where we measured leading in mech lengths. E.G. in order to hit the average player you had to fire the length of an entire mech ahead of them to land the shot - and that was with lasers. It wasn't unusual to run into the player on really horrible internet though (think Netzero) and have to do some test shooting measuring his lead only to find out it was 3-4 mech lengths. Even the worst mech case of lag I've encountered in MWO has not broken a full mech length yet by comparison.

It exists and will be reduced over time - but it is certainly not an excuse for being unable to kill a mech.

Edited by TruePoindexter, 10 January 2013 - 06:15 PM.


#40 Solis Obscuri

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 06:15 PM

View PostAlexWildeagle, on 10 January 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

another amusing thread. Which do I like bettter:

1) Standing behind cover watching a sky full of missiles going back and forth, waiting. Watching heavy mechs trying to move from one cover point to another and disintegrating in less then 30 seconds to streams of missiles. Where eventually the winner is whomever has the most missiles. Where "tactics" are sitting there in an LRM boat waiting for an enemy to poke their head out.

Or

2) LRM boats now have to manuever, tag and narc actually have a point. Direct fire weapons are actually useable as mechs can manuever and flank enemy positions. LRMs have a place, but not as mech melters but as their original purpose which was to remove tons of enemy armor softening them up for your frontline mechs. Where "Tactics" now involve manuevering, flanking and cornering your enemy.

2 involves multiple mech types in roles. With #1 you might as well just design an artillery game or drop the a bomb game.

You have those backwards. 1) is what fighting a team of LRM D-DCs without your own ECM is like now. 2) is how the whole game used to be prior to ECM.





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