96 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

The answer is more complicated than just "missiles" or "ecm".

LRMs are still fundamentally broken. This can be evidenced by how overpowered LRMs are when the opposing team has no ECM.

ECM is also fundamentally broken. This can be evidenced by how useless LRMs are when the opposing team has multiple ECMs.

The fix is actually to nerf ECM but also nerf indirect fired LRMs. ECM should not hard-counter missiles. And LRMs should not be overpowered if the other team has no ECM.

[HiplyRustic]

Seriously?

LRMs are a Darwin add-on; if you die repeatedly to them you're too stupid to pilot a mech.

[BerryChunks]

Codejack, on 10 January 2013 - 07:21 PM, said:

Yea, but saying that the devs need a swift kick in the *** is rude.

sometimes you have to stop pussyfooting around people's feelings and tell them what's what.

in case anyone starts crying:

pussyfoot [ˈpʊsɪˌfʊt] Informal
vb (intr)
1. to move about stealthily or warily like a cat
2. to avoid committing oneself
n pl -foots
a person who pussyfoots

Edited by BerryChunks, 10 January 2013 - 08:01 PM.

[Serapth]

BerryChunks, on 10 January 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

sometimes you have to stop pussyfooting around people's feelings and tell them what's what.

in case anyone starts crying:

pussyfoot [ˈpʊsɪˌfʊt] Informal
vb (intr)
1. to move about stealthily or warily like a cat
2. to avoid committing oneself
n pl -foots
a person who pussyfoots

Holy crap, that made it past the censor? I'm shocked!

This is the most locked down forum I have ever seen, language filter wise.

Edited by Serapth, 10 January 2013 - 08:17 PM.

[Orzorn]

Khobai, on 10 January 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

The answer is more complicated than just "missiles" or "ecm".

LRMs are still fundamentally broken. This can be evidenced by how overpowered LRMs are when the opposing team has no ECM.

ECM is also fundamentally broken. This can be evidenced by how useless LRMs are when the opposing team has multiple ECMs.

The fix is actually to nerf ECM but also nerf indirect fired LRMs. ECM should not hard-counter missiles. And LRMs should not be overpowered if the other team has no ECM.

No Khobai, stop making sense, that isn't allowed here. We're only allowed to suggest a ridiculous and awful "fix" to the issue and then call anyone else with a differing opinion or who want to "fix" a different item awful names and slurs.

[h00n]

Well, I hate missile boaters more than snipers in traditional first person shooters.

LRMs are for softening, but IS LRMs are too heavy to use as a weapon to punch holes in armor to exploit with direct fire weapons.

Without ECM, missile boats are a pain in the ***. With ECM, people who use LRMs to soften a target up before closing have wasted tonnage.

[Orzorn]

h00n, on 10 January 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

Well, I hate missile boaters more than snipers in traditional first person shooters.

LRMs are for softening, but IS LRMs are too heavy to use as a weapon to punch holes in armor to exploit with direct fire weapons.

Without ECM, missile boats are a pain in the ***. With ECM, people who use LRMs to soften a target up before closing have wasted tonnage.

I used to use a single LRM 10 on my Dragon both for fire support, and a bit of variety, but have since stopped because of that. I'll pretty much never get them to hit anything indirectly these days, so why waste the tonnage when I could put larger energy weapons or ballistics on my mech?

[Rift Hawk]

Typatty, on 10 January 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

I don't understand why PGI would introduce ECM before a fix to the netcode. My guess is that they knew how many people were LRM and SSRM boating.

So, my question to you, was the game more broken before ECM when players were LRM/SSRM boating or is the game more broken now with ECM introduced without netcode fixes?

What broke the game more ? Nothing. The game is in Beta and is not in its final launch stage. Therefore the game is incomplete in terms of development and cannot be broken.

Also, one can see this argument from multiple perspectives.

The brawlers will always say the game was broken because of streaks and LRMs.

The LRM/Streak boaters will always say it was because of ECM.

Then the pissed off people in Assaults and Heavies will always say it was ECM because they can't streak down lights anymore.

Here is my opinion:

1. Everyone needs to realise that ECM is part of Mechwarrior and Battletech alike. Given we don't have to slave ourselves to cannon but at the same time, picking and choosing what we want doesn't work either. What needs to happen here is to find a way to limit the amount of ECM per battle. The game is at the point where I see 1 medium for every 3-4 assaults. I don't think that should ever happen. There should be something more strick in the way matchmaker forms battles.

2. Hardpoints need to be more restrictive. Boating weapons is ridiculous.

3. Each Mech has a roll to fill. Its time the game reflects that. Heavies and Assaults should not be able to easily kill lights or what the point of using a light ? If all there is, is to kill other lights...no one will use them. They will want mechs that can kill bigger mechs and be able to take a beating. Also, lights should not be damn near invulnerable because premades are running 4 RVN CLs. Thats ludacrous that match maker would even allow such a thing. Nor should it allow 4 DD-Cs to launch into battle together. This game needs more restrictions on how match maker draws players into a battle. With limits such as 1-2 assault and 1-2 lights. Mediums and Heavies should be the primary force on the battlefield. Not Lights and Assaults.

[mekabuser]

hmm, to me as a pug , the ssrm spam was far more of a pita than the raven ecm spam. I mean really , the ssrm spam was off the charts.

[StalaggtIKE]

LRM/SSRM and ECM are both pretty bad, however nothing got fixed. All ECM did was grant the one with the most ECM un-impeded use of LRM/SSRM while the other team's indirect fire become highly unreliable.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Khobai, on 10 January 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

The answer is more complicated than just "missiles" or "ecm".

LRMs are still fundamentally broken. This can be evidenced by how overpowered LRMs are when the opposing team has no ECM.

ECM is also fundamentally broken. This can be evidenced by how useless LRMs are when the opposing team has multiple ECMs.

The fix is actually to nerf ECM but also nerf indirect fired LRMs. ECM should not hard-counter missiles. And LRMs should not be overpowered if the other team has no ECM.

all you're saying is lrm's are op if ecm is employed, no ecm means everyone gets their lrm's back thus teams can retaliate properly without the firepower lop sidedness ecm provides against those without. sounds like you're arguing more against ecm than lrm's.

Orzorn, on 10 January 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

No Khobai, stop making sense, that isn't allowed here. We're only allowed to suggest a ridiculous and awful "fix" to the issue and then call anyone else with a differing opinion or who want to "fix" a different item awful names and slurs.

he wasn't making that much sense when all he needed to say is lrm's are op if they can use them with ecm and i can't counter their ecm shield so my lrm's are bunked. even if lrm's went down to 1.4 dmg people will still complain about the spread dmg being too high cause they can't dodge the flying pensioners {yeah they're that slow to reach you when indirectly fired from afar}. as i said ecm is bad but it's only a part of what's broke in this game, many many many other problems elevate ecm's opness and screws other aspects into the ground.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 10 January 2013 - 09:09 PM.

[CrashieJ]

ECM shouldn't have been a hard counter to the Nth degree, that and the fact it becomes untargetable is not right.

in other ravens I can get up to 2 kills (1 ERPPC + 1 Large Pulse or 2 ERPPCs for the 2X; 4 med + 1 SRM6 for the 4x) before dying
In my ECM raven 3L I can get 4-6 depending on map (4 med las + 2 SSRM2s) WITHOUT DYING AT THE END OF THE MATCH

that's past a 300% increase in battle effectiveness if you tally kills to deaths.

Drop the ECM in the 3L and I'm down to 1 kill before dying.

-ECM is the problem along with a horrible netcode
it became a scourge.

[Orzorn]

GalaxyBluestar, on 10 January 2013 - 09:09 PM, said:

all you're saying is lrm's are op if ecm is employed, no ecm means everyone gets their lrm's back thus teams can retaliate properly without the firepower lop sidedness ecm provides against those without. sounds like you're arguing more against ecm than lrm's.

Well, he did say that they BOTH needed nerfs (in which case, I'd say ECM would be nerfed to not block lock ons unless you're WITHIN its bubble, which would remove the missile exclusivity issue).

Quote

he wasn't making that much sense when all he needed to say is lrm's are op if they can use them with ecm and i can't counter their ecm shield so my lrm's are bunked. even if lrm's went down to 1.4 dmg people will still complain about the spread dmg being too high cause they can't dodge the flying pensioners {yeah they're that slow to reach you when indirectly fired from afar}. as i said ecm is bad but it's only a part of what's broke in this game, many many many other problems elevate ecm's opness and screws other aspects into the ground.

I see what you're saying. ECM is strong because of lots of other issues, such as SSRMs becoming exclusive to whatever team packs the most ECM. This also means that one of the best ways to deal with the bad netcode (auto-hit SSRMs) is removed for everyone BUT the mechs that benefit from the poor netcode in the first place. So ECM doesn't so much cause the issue as it exacerbates it.

Regardless, the point is that its a compound issue of several problems that ALL need addressing; something that aggressive and angry posters tend to ignore in favor of picking sides ("hurp, you're an LRM boater noob." "hurp, you're just too bad to avoid lrms"). SSRMs, LRMs, ECM, BAP, TAG, NARC, hitboxes, and netcode ALL need fixing and won't magically go away by focusing on a single issue.

Edited by Orzorn, 10 January 2013 - 09:24 PM.

[Corvus Antaka]

mech3 LRM's.

mech4 Radar.

btech:3025 jumpjets.

LRMS - Fixed.

ECM - Fixed.

Jumpjets - Fixed.

No wackamole jumpjets. fun jumpjets.

LRMS that hit hard, but can be dodged and AMS'd. LRMS that need skill to arc and hit targets behind cover and vectoring to hit moving targets.

mech4 radar, passive, active, ecm, bap.

yeah but we don't know what we are doing. We only play the game, call the battles, and see more fights than anyone else, and have for the past 20 years.

Sometimes I dream that Activision resurrects and saves mechwarrior from itself.

[Mordin Ashe]

LRMs were always a problem, but mostly on unexperienced players who simply didn't get that they can't charge huge open space alone and expect to survive. Flight path changes changed that. But they had one common effect with ECM - peopel had to stay in groups in order to AMS work 100%. Not because they were somehow forced to, but because they were punished if they didn't. And this is bad indeed.

Anyway, voted for AMS. LRMs had at least some counter and drawbacks, ECM has none whatsoever.

[Apoc1138]

SmoothCriminal, on 10 January 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

I have a 3L and can absolutely confirm that they are over powered. Netcode/hit detection/hit boxes mean taking a raven down is very difficult unless you have streaks. You will also need counter ECM.

Personally, all TAG a residue of 3 seconds, in order to allow people to hit something moving at 120kph. Then allow the TAG to function at ranges within the ECM.

Or, you know, fix the netcode, but that seems to be out of the realms of possibility at the moment...

I'm not quite sure why you quoted me when you wrote this response
I don't need ECM and I don't find it "very difficult" to kill ravens or commandos, either with large lasers (and AC's as they are often stupid enough to stand still), or SRM's (shot gun effect is great as you'll always land some kind of damage on them)

I also have no problems tagging in my LRM boat and taking down Ravens or commandos in my 4 x LRM15 stalker... which also has 5 medium lasers for when they get too close... the delay of losing lock is long enough that you can wave the tag around near the ECM mech at distance and it hits enough to keep lock... if they are in the open because they think they are immune to LRM's they are dead... or they have to use cover just like every other mech with or without ECM

in fact if I see an atlas under ECM, I don't even bother using the tag, I just fire - they then get no warning about being locked on to and get a face full of missiles before they have a chance to move

I totally agree that the netcode would be great if they could fix it, but in the meantime I have no problems playing the game and adjusting to what is there now

Edited by Apoc1138, 11 January 2013 - 01:56 AM.

[Windsaw]

Wow, this was one of the most biased polls I have ever seen here.

Netcode fix wouldn't fix ECM.
LRMs weren't a problem before ECM. Streaks were only a problem on certain lights. And ECM even made the streak problem worse.

There are, like, 10 options missing in this poll.

[Remarius]

TruePoindexter, on 10 January 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:

I land AC20 shots on Ravens... I sense that most people blaming net code are in fact bad shots.

Ditto with my large lasers I often kill Raven 3L's - not always as some pilots are very good but most really just rely on pure speed so positioning and aim can take them down - First match last night was a raven and commando... of course the next 3 matches were fair disasters but not to lights and don't we forget all the ones we made stupid errors in?

[Rushin Roulette]

Kousagi, on 10 January 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

edit, And before ANY of you "LRM"s are not OP" people say that the counter to LRM's is cover.... Well... ya know, cover blocks all weapons right? So.... Everyone should just stay in cover to not get shot at, we'll have a fun ol game of camp behind the rock till the timer runs out.

Um... yes. Exactly this. This is the exact reason why people should learn to play and not run out into the open like Lemmings.

If you are fighting someone... would you rather fight out in the middle of a lake where everyone can hit you with only your rear armor to stop damage to your internals... or would you rather fight while standing behind a really big rock which stops Missile, Balistic and Energy weapons from hitting you at all?

[Long Draw]

So I've been using my non-ECM equipped mechs (Stalkers, Atlases, Jenners and the founders catapult) since ECM module was introduced about 99% of the time I go into matches. Tonight, I switched into my ECM equipped AS7-D-DC with sensor module, capture module, advanced zoom, AMS, 3xSSRM2(400), 1xGauss(30), 2xER PPC, std250 engine and the rest filled with DHS.

The result ended up being that instead of killing 1-2 mechs per match on average without ECM, when I used my ECM Atlas, I managed over 12 kills in 4 matches. And only died 3 times due to very bad PUG groups (I didn't drop with a group for the ECM Atlas test).

So is ECM OP? Yes, hands down it is OP compared to all other non-ECM variants I tested. The fix I suggest. Make Guardian ECM module only disrupt target locking on either the equipper or on one of eqipper's team, not an entire team. It doesn't matter if you are in a commando or an Atlas with ECM. It is silly that everyone can pretend like they aren't there from one module.

Other than that, the ECM module is reasonable for the most part, even if I don't personally agree with some of its other added bonuses that aren't canon or TT-based.

Rushin Roulette, on 11 January 2013 - 02:47 AM, said:

Um... yes. Exactly this. This is the exact reason why people should learn to play and not run out into the open like Lemmings.

If you are fighting someone... would you rather fight out in the middle of a lake where everyone can hit you with only your rear armor to stop damage to your internals... or would you rather fight while standing behind a really big rock which stops Missile, Balistic and Energy weapons from hitting you at all?

Isn't that what happens all the time on Arctic Ridge and Caustic Volcano and Forest Colony in several places?