45 replies to this topic

[Brawler1986]

Somehow the TAG doens't work as intended. This occures when an enemy mech with ECM comes at close range. In my opinion TAG is a beam/laser pointer to guide missiles even if the mech has an ECM. So if you use the TAG it will guide the missiles and everyone is able to target that mech.

[Ceesa]

That's actually what TAG is supposed to do in this game. It only works when you're outside the ECM bubble. Sure it's silly and doesn't make much sense, but it is what it is. If you like using TAG, just stay farther away, at the edge of streak range for example.

[Mordin Ashe]

TAG also doesn't work when ECM is near me, but the Mech I am trying to TAG is far away from the ECM bubble. Long story short, it sucks. Also people saying that TAG is counter to ECM don't even know this, which is somehow funny.

Edited by Mordin Ashe, 12 January 2013 - 07:11 AM.

[ICEFANG13]

"Working as intended"

[Brawler1986]

Mordin Ashe, on 12 January 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

TAG also doesn't work when ECM is near me, but the Mech I am trying to TAG is far away from the ECM bubble. Long story short, it sucks. Also people saying that TAG is counter to ECM don't even know this, which is somehow funny.

True. The main reason why i posted this, is because it would balance the ECM abit more. It sucks when a Raven (without ECM) with a TAG comes close but cant pinpoint targets for the LRM boats because the ECM of the enemy disturbs somehow the beam of the TAG.

[Povier]

That TAG doesnt work in ecm really makes sense! ECM scrambles communication. Thus the information about your TAG cant be broadcast.

What does laser guided lock on do?
The laser can pick up a "location" (distance and coordinates) and itll be send to the missles to guide them if the location of the target changes.

Per this logic it should be possible to guide your own missles within the ECM with TAG, but not be possible to send the location to the teammates.

But this is to complicated and massive StreakCats will be back. Try to imagin that the signal your sending to the missles only can be catched and scrambled if your in the ECM.

I interpret the TAG enemy lock to receive the information about it this way: The laser can locate the enemy signatures more precise. Thus your aerial can be adjusted exactly to this position.
Then if your outside the ECM you can broadcast this information to the friendly network.

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

Povier, on 12 January 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

That TAG doesnt work in ecm really makes sense!

No, it doesn't. And TAG doesn't 'broadcast' anything but coherent beam of light.

[Povier]

?
Some computer must interpret the laser beam informations and calculate the location, a laser beam has no enemy information except a reflection or energy status to calculate a location...
A laser can not gather any other radar information like weapons, mech type... and a laser beam itself is not connected to the friendly network - its your mech comm... and these are scrambled

look here. theres a computer connected with laser and the attack system. modern weapons have laser guidance themself. But for our issue our mech has the guidance-system:
http://www3.nd.edu/~...ing2002/a9.html

To avoid counter concerning the missle guided technique while the missles receive the relfection of the laser near a target themself - SSRM and LRM are not laser guided, but radar guided

Edited by Povier, 12 January 2013 - 10:20 AM.

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

No matter how will you justify this it still doesn't make sense at some point. If TAG is only a laser pointer anyone that can actually see tagged mech (or actually laser reflected from its surface) should be able to target it, but it would require LOS to the target and shouldn't be affected by ECM at all. This would be closer to real life laser designators.. If it works like you describe - then you should be able to target enemy tagged mech even when you're under enemy ECM, but couldn't share that data with ypur teammates.

[Povier]

I agree, any other mech with TAG-system should reveive reflection data if its in TAG-range... (maybe the TAG laser frequence is unique, thus others are not adjusted... ?)

But one thing, only reflection can not give information about location, you must have the inormation about the origin of the laser-pointer...

Edited by Povier, 12 January 2013 - 10:28 AM.

[nungunz]

ECM disrupts TAG within 180m as stated in the patch notes and has always done so since ECM was implemented. This is working exactly as intended.

[StalaggtIKE]

Mordin Ashe, on 12 January 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

TAG also doesn't work when ECM is near me, but the Mech I am trying to TAG is far away from the ECM bubble. Long story short, it sucks. Also people saying that TAG is counter to ECM don't even know this, which is somehow funny.

I always find that humorous as well. You have to invest too much just to use TAG:

• drop a laser (weigh as much as 1 mlaser)
  
• must maintain LOS (you're vulnerable to retaliation)
  
• must avoid ECM mechs

After all of that, your LRM still have a good chance of missing a competent target. Like I say everytime; if you're having success with TAG, you're playing against bad players. Plain and simple.

[Povier]

Povier, on 12 January 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

But one thing, only reflection can not give information about location, you must have the inormation about the origin of the laser-pointer...

I must correct me myself. You would be able to calculate the location from other TAGs if you include the change of reflection angle and the change of laser energy your reveiving on movement.

Conclusion: Other TAG systems should be able to reveive the location of the laser painted target, even if u tag from inside a ECM.

But thats reality... Maybe just the sensitive electronic of the laser emitter is disturbed by ECM.

For all "this is a fact - why do u ask"
We just seak a simple explanation - human nature and the other fiddle-faddle...

[Jukebox1986]

StalaggtIKE, on 12 January 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

After all of that, your LRM still have a good chance of missing a competent target. Like I say everytime; if you're having success with TAG, you're playing against bad players. Plain and simple.

Maybe thats true. Maybe everyone i meet is bad and let me do my 400-1000 dmg per round because they cant do any better.

Or maybe - just maybe - you are bad with TAG and/or LRM´s.
I´m playing a 4xLRM15/4ML Stalker in 8Man/4Man/Lone Wolf games. Its hard to hold a lock, but its neither impossible, nor completely broken. LRM´s are very unforgiving at this moment. Plain and Simple.

[LynxFury]

First off it's light...if ECM can block light, then either it should give off one heck of a light show, we all should be blinded in game, or it's serious inconsistency.

If it really is about transmission between mechs, than the tagging mech shouldn't have it effect their own missiles.

If it's about transmission of mechs to missile, than all missiles should loose lock once it enters that bubble.

non of it makes sense.
--
And TAG should have nothing do with the communications between mechs. It's reflected laser light off the enemy that mech/missiles lock onto. This is how it works in the real word.

"near-infrared
wavelength spectrum, which is not visible to the human eye. They
can be aimed so the energy precisely designates a chosen spot on the
target. Laser illumination designates targets for laser spot
trackers (LSTs) and laser-guided weapons (LGWs). Some laser systems
can also accurately determine target range and location. When
coupled with horizontal and vertical scales, they can measure target
azimuth and elevation."
http://www.fas.org/m...rt/jp3_09_1.pdf

[StUffz]

TAG works, but the C3 function in each mech does not. If you tag an enemy, you should basically see the "+" but your teammates don't because C3 is interrupted.

In short, your own fired missile should work normal. Anyhow, it would be best to have more than one person in your team who has tag to make sure that if one is jammed the other can tag. consider that only the closest mech will be disabled, the other one should still be able to tag.

[Povier]

LynxFury, on 12 January 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

...
non of it makes sense.
--
And TAG should have nothing do with the communications between mechs. It's reflected laser light off the enemy that mech/missiles lock onto. This is how it works in the real word.
...

You forgot one possibility:
See your scrambled HUD if you re in ECM. Maybe the TAG system (emitter) didnt work properly, too.
And another thing, you re only able to detect laser painted targets if u have a suitable system named TAG. Thus if your the only one in your team u have to broadcast the subsequent informations...

Missles in game are not laser guided...

Edited by Povier, 12 January 2013 - 12:30 PM.

[LynxFury]

Povier, on 12 January 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

You forgot one possibility:
See your scrambled HUD if you re in ECM. Maybe the TAG system (emitter) didnt work properly, too.

It's a laser, not a radio.

Quote

And another thing, you re only able to detect laser painted targets if u have a suitable system named TAG. Thus if your the only one in your team u have to broadcast the subsequent informations...

Missles in game are not laser guided...

It could be that way, but in BT through the murk of badly thought out sensor game which worked ok on cardboard, it doesn't take an extra piece of equipment...guided BT missiles ARE laser guided because they can lock onto TAG. In real life there's added components to missiles to track laser light for sure. And I'd be loath to add another piece of non-BT gear just to cancel out a 1.5 ton piece of equipment.

The thing is, I to a big degree don't care how it goes, but it should be consistent within itself and not be so obvious counter intuitive that it provoke "wtf" moments when you see it, such as when you can't fire on your own TAG inside the bubble.

Edited by LynxFury, 12 January 2013 - 12:45 PM.

[Povier]

"It's a laser, not a radio."

Its a fine electronic component which could be scrambled, like the displays in HUD.

No the missles are not laser guided, because if no tag is available the missle locks on, too. So friends missles lock on if he has no tag. The information of the laser is aquired by the mechs not by the missles.
With this thoughts everything fits.

Edited by Povier, 12 January 2013 - 01:03 PM.

[Thysbe]

I still don´t get it.

It´s a laser. It´s made for emission. How can it be scrambled without beeing destroyed?

But as ECM only work on frequencies the enemy uses or with some kind of magic ignors
own transmissions any "real life" discussion on ECM is pointless.

Edited by Thysbe, 12 January 2013 - 01:21 PM.