65 replies to this topic

[lonewolfsx]

And I'm... "flabberghasted," to use the term, about the changes (or lack there of). I understand game development takes time, but we're still on the same 4 maps with variants now, a new gametype which basically doesn't work and is the same deathmatch style as before, a few new mechs which are nice (however I think the Cataphract is WAYYYY too small of a scale.. for 70 tons it's barely bigger than the Cicada!).. and worst of all, I've played two matches waiting for my friends to hop on so we could group and both times every mech on the other team was equipped with ECM.

Normally, I'd think no big deal, I just need to close in to get ssrm lock (I piloted an SSRM variant Jenner) but nope, the enemy scouts were entirely impervious to my missiles. I can't even dumbfire SSRM's in this game for some reason. Upon returning to the mechlab, I see ECM can only be equipped by specific mechs. Why? It's just like heat sinks or BAP or any other piece of equipment. The missile system balance is entirely off again, and the classic fun light-vs-light duels of ssrm's and small/medium lasers are now gone. In fact, Jenners are largely absent and my c-bills spent on that chassis is pretty much useless (including the 300XL engine which I can't equip on a Raven, despite being the same tonnage. Kind of strange to me.)


So, a few changes obviously need to be made.

1- ECM cannot block all missile locks. It must lower detection by standard radar, negate the see-through-terrain abilities of BAP, and perhaps expand lock-on time a small amount or break the lock sooner over terrain (and scramble targeting computers if those are put in later on). Also should lower effectiveness of TAG and Artemis, but not NARC.

2- ECM needs to be equippable on all possible mechs. It's just like any other piece of equipment. This will add more variance to the current all-same-configuration issues (everyone using Raven 3L, atlas and cicada variants with ECM.. I forogt which ones have it available).

3- Streak SRM's should be able to fire without missile lock, they would simple act like standard SRM's with spread and all. This will add some more skill to using them (can't just hold down the fire button), as well as increasing their effectiveness in skilled hands (hit and run type stuff), but still being difficult to hit ECM equipped mechs dumb-fire and of course cost more weight making the user inclined to favor the lock-on technique. Also, why are there still no SSRM-4 or SSRM-6 launchers? It's level 2 tech we should have in 3050. Can't be that hard to add in.

4- While ECM will negate the special effects of BAP, a mech using BAP vs a mech using ECM should be basically the same as if neither were using any equipment (i.e. both using standard radar.. equal)

Addendum: I know netcode issues are still prevelent, but with the cryengine updates there is now no reason I can't equip an engine of any size on my various mechs. I'm all about the speed, and it's unfair to me and many other players to prevent us from playing our style. Plus, I miss the excitement of MW3 and older titles where you didn't really know what speed an enemy was capable of, you had to figure it out. The engine limits make all Jenners, all of whatever class, the exact same top speed. That's no fun, I want to wonder if the Jenner I'm dodging through buildings to escape from is going to be slower and more heat efficient or faster than even my 300 and going to catch me around the next turn. This issue should be revisited and is one of the main reasons I took a break for so long.

Edited by lonewolfsx, 10 January 2013 - 07:15 AM.

[Kdogg788]

I've yet to play a game where the entire enemy team had ECM, however, I wouldn't doubt that the entire enemy team could have had ECM cover, where they were within the active limits of friendly ECMs. I've made posts about possible changes to ECM, as have many others, but we have had no word whatsoever of any real change and balance for it, so unfortunately you're wasting your breath. I'm sorry you've been gone so long, but in the meantime everyone who has stayed active has earned Cbills, bought mechs, and leveled up their equipment stable.

-k

[Butane9000]

Some games can have teams having 5-6/8 using ECM. Sometimes 8/8 with 5 Raven 3L and 3 Atlas D-DCs.

[PANZERBUNNY]

You may wanna take another 3 months off.

[Tie Ma]

ECM is just plain broken

[Sug]

PANZERBUNNY, on 10 January 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

You may wanna take another 3 months off.

Back just in time for the delay of the clan invasion.

[Crashingmail]

From Sarna.net Streak SRM 4 are available for IS first in 3058, only Clan got them far quicker.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Streak_4

[CDLord HHGD]

lonewolfsx, on 10 January 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

3- Streak SRM's should be able to fire without missile lock, they would simple act like standard SRM's with spread and all. This will add some more skill to using them (can't just hold down the fire button), as well as increasing their effectiveness in skilled hands (hit and run type stuff), but still being difficult to hit ECM equipped mechs dumb-fire and of course cost more weight making the user inclined to favor the lock-on technique. Also, why are there still no SSRM-4 or SSRM-6 launchers? It's level 2 tech we should have in 3050. Can't be that hard to add in.

SSRM4 and SSRM6 are Clan tech at this time I believe. There are no IS mechs equipped with anything larger than a SSRM2 in my TRO: 3050. There isn't anything larger than a SSRM2 in my TRO: 2750 book either (just checked) so it's not even LosTech.

[StraferX]

Welcome back to 0pen Cash Beta my friend. I as well am very dissapointed as it looks like the only real major change from the last patch is that Large Lasers now interact properly with the environment and have proper sounds and detections. Light mech lagsheild is now worse than before, I am seeing more disconnects than ever, still fps bug, mine craft bug etc. I wait with baited breath for the Jan 15th patch as it is supposed to be chock full of major fixes. Still fun most of the time though with a fine mix of frustration.

[Kdogg788]

Butane9000, on 10 January 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

Some games can have teams having 5-6/8 using ECM. Sometimes 8/8 with 5 Raven 3L and 3 Atlas D-DCs.

In eight mans possibly if they are min maxing for ECM usage. Most of my 8 man games come in teams not maxing ECM or are inter-regiment skirmishes where the class limits are tightly enforced. In 4s and PUGs, ECM is not as prevalent as when it was new.

-k

[Goose]

Tie Ma, on 10 January 2013 - 07:18 AM, said:

ECM is just plain broken

No: It's the Streaks …

[GODzillaGSPB]

I like all the proposed changes, except one. ECM should still be limited to a few chassis variants. Let's face it...otherwise EVERYONE would use it. Your other changes would make it less of an OP item, yes. But the same changes would also make all the other non-ECM variants of that chassis (Atlas, Cicada, Raven) viable and attractive again. Jenners would probably see their return, too.

Edited by GODzillaGSPB, 10 January 2013 - 07:52 AM.

[Voridan Atreides]

lonewolfsx, on 10 January 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

I've played two matches waiting for my friends to hop on so we could group and both times every mech on the other team was equipped with ECM.

lonewolfsx, on 10 January 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

Upon returning to the mechlab, I see ECM can only be equipped by specific mechs. Why? It's just like heat sinks or BAP or any other piece of equipment.

It would be pretty ridiculous if every mech had ECM available. It would do exactly as you supposedly experienced. Every mech in every match would have ECM. That was a pretty big contradiction.....

Edited by Voridan Atreides, 10 January 2013 - 07:47 AM.

[Voridan Atreides]

GODzillaGSPB, on 10 January 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

Jenners would probably see their return, too.

Jenners with ECM would be total madness. ECMWarrior Online would turn into JennerWarrior Online.

[Skyfaller]

lonewolfsx, on 10 January 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

And I'm... "flabberghasted," to use the term, about the changes (or lack there of). I understand game development takes time, but we're still on the same 4 maps with variants now, a new gametype which basically doesn't work and is the same deathmatch style as before, a few new mechs which are nice (however I think the Cataphract is WAYYYY too small of a scale.. for 70 tons it's barely bigger than the Cicada!).. and worst of all, I've played two matches waiting for my friends to hop on so we could group and both times every mech on the other team was equipped with ECM.

Normally, I'd think no big deal, I just need to close in to get ssrm lock (I piloted an SSRM variant Jenner) but nope, the enemy scouts were entirely impervious to my missiles. I can't even dumbfire SSRM's in this game for some reason. Upon returning to the mechlab, I see ECM can only be equipped by specific mechs. Why? It's just like heat sinks or BAP or any other piece of equipment. The missile system balance is entirely off again, and the classic fun light-vs-light duels of ssrm's and small/medium lasers are now gone. In fact, Jenners are largely absent and my c-bills spent on that chassis is pretty much useless (including the 300XL engine which I can't equip on a Raven, despite being the same tonnage. Kind of strange to me.)


So, a few changes obviously need to be made.

1- ECM cannot block all missile locks. It must lower detection by standard radar, negate the see-through-terrain abilities of BAP, and perhaps expand lock-on time a small amount or break the lock sooner over terrain (and scramble targeting computers if those are put in later on). Also should lower effectiveness of TAG and Artemis, but not NARC.

2- ECM needs to be equippable on all possible mechs. It's just like any other piece of equipment. This will add more variance to the current all-same-configuration issues (everyone using Raven 3L, atlas and cicada variants with ECM.. I forogt which ones have it available).

3- Streak SRM's should be able to fire without missile lock, they would simple act like standard SRM's with spread and all. This will add some more skill to using them (can't just hold down the fire button), as well as increasing their effectiveness in skilled hands (hit and run type stuff), but still being difficult to hit ECM equipped mechs dumb-fire and of course cost more weight making the user inclined to favor the lock-on technique. Also, why are there still no SSRM-4 or SSRM-6 launchers? It's level 2 tech we should have in 3050. Can't be that hard to add in.

4- While ECM will negate the special effects of BAP, a mech using BAP vs a mech using ECM should be basically the same as if neither were using any equipment (i.e. both using standard radar.. equal)

Addendum: I know netcode issues are still prevelent, but with the cryengine updates there is now no reason I can't equip an engine of any size on my various mechs. I'm all about the speed, and it's unfair to me and many other players to prevent us from playing our style. Plus, I miss the excitement of MW3 and older titles where you didn't really know what speed an enemy was capable of, you had to figure it out. The engine limits make all Jenners, all of whatever class, the exact same top speed. That's no fun, I want to wonder if the Jenner I'm dodging through buildings to escape from is going to be slower and more heat efficient or faster than even my 300 and going to catch me around the next turn. This issue should be revisited and is one of the main reasons I took a break for so long.

Welcome back. Please do try not to step on the giant defecation pile... I know, I know, it has grown to monumental size since the last time you were here.

Just.. try to go around it.

Please, try supress any TT opinions or they'll end up like the many hopes and dreams that lie under the steaming mass. The devs seem to delight in dropping more goey nuggets when TT is mentioned.

Why yes, I do refer to ECM how did you guess? Wow you've barely been back and you already know about it. Nice.

Ah, true, they did seem to help PPCs a bit but if you look at the middle of the dung pile you'll see the 'PPC scramble effect' still moaning and weeping to be let out. What? Ah yes, certainly... it WOULD be an interesting counter to ECM and...

oh crap... you made me hope and quote TT.... the pile just got bigger. ><

Edited by Skyfaller, 10 January 2013 - 07:53 AM.

[Adridos]

Easy-mode Jenner pilot hops inot the era of easy-mode Raven pilots... the results are quite interesting, but most of the post is whine.

[Tie Ma]

roman aquaducts are lost tech during the dark ages

[AlanEsh]

GODzillaGSPB, on 10 January 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

I like all the proposed changes, except one. ECM should still be limited to a few chassis variants. Let's face it...otherwise EVERYONE would use it.

No, make it heavier and make it HOT so it actually has a drawback to equip. -- Or make it use a module slot.

In any case, I'd rather see 8 different mechs all equipped with ECM than what we have now which is almost every mech running ECM but only 2 or 3 chassis on the field. This is a case where ubiquity (in ECM capability) will bring some diversity back to the game when it comes to mech chassis being used in matches.

[lonewolfsx]

Selected replies below:

PANZERBUNNY, on 10 January 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

You may wanna take another 3 months off.

Not sure if that's sarcasm or not... but I might. I'll keep an eye on patch notes but I have enough c-bills racked up for the mechs I want in the future and probably won't play now until I can get them... Storm Crow specifically, should cost ~14m.

Crashingmail, on 10 January 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

From Sarna.net Streak SRM 4 are available for IS first in 3058, only Clan got them far quicker.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Streak_4

cdlord, on 10 January 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

SSRM4 and SSRM6 are Clan tech at this time I believe. There are no IS mechs equipped with anything larger than a SSRM2 in my TRO: 3050. There isn't anything larger than a SSRM2 in my TRO: 2750 book either (just checked) so it's not even LosTech.

Ah I didn't realize that, thank you for showing me. I always thought all SRM's were lvl1 and SSRM's were all lvl 2, didn't realize the larger packs came in later. Not that it ever mattered before, if you wanted to mount an SSRM-6 you just put on 3x SSRM-2's, but this particular game ruins all of that with the "hardpoint" system. Oh well.

GODzillaGSPB, on 10 January 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

I like all the proposed changes, except one. ECM should still be limited to a few chassis variants. Let's face it...otherwise EVERYONE would use it. Your other changes would make it less of an OP item, yes. But the same changes would also make all the other non-ECM variants of that chassis (Atlas, Cicada, Raven) viable and attractive again. Jenners would probably see their return, too.

Voridan Atreides, on 10 January 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

It would be pretty ridiculous if every mech had ECM available. It would do exactly as you supposedly experienced. Every mech in every match would have ECM. That was a pretty big contradiction.....

No no, my point was that ECM should be extra equipment available to all chassis AFTER it has been limited to the specifications I mention above. I'm not talking about all mechs mounting insane anit-missile god-mode devices like they do now. Of course it'd be ludicrous to have that situation, I'm talking about old-style. I knew only a rare few people who ran ECM on their MW2 and MW3 mechs, I usually just did configs with no arm-mounted weapons and had plenty of tonnage to spare for equipment (most of my MW3 campaign mechs run BAP, ECM, and jump jets all at once). ECM wasn't overpowering, in fact, it barely did anything really. Scrambling the targeting computer and limiting radar range were about it.

Angelicon, on 10 January 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

No, make it heavier and make it HOT so it actually has a drawback to equip. -- Or make it use a module slot.

In any case, I'd rather see 8 different mechs all equipped with ECM than what we have now which is almost every mech running ECM but only 2 or 3 chassis on the field. This is a case where ubiquity (in ECM capability) will bring some diversity back to the game when it comes to mech chassis being used in matches.

Thanks, you got my point on the all-mechs-equip thing. However, ECM shouldn't generate heat or weigh more than it does in table top. It just needs to have effectiveness relative to its weight.. it's 1.5 tons, and therefore can only possibly do so much. As it stands right now, it's 1.5 tons and I'd rather be 5.5 tons under weight than mount an extra PPC. That's not a good sign.

[lonewolfsx]

Skyfaller, on 10 January 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

Welcome back. Please do try not to step on the giant defecation pile... I know, I know, it has grown to monumental size since the last time you were here.

Just.. try to go around it.

Please, try supress any TT opinions or they'll end up like the many hopes and dreams that lie under the steaming mass. The devs seem to delight in dropping more goey nuggets when TT is mentioned.

Why yes, I do refer to ECM how did you guess? Wow you've barely been back and you already know about it. Nice.

Ah, true, they did seem to help PPCs a bit but if you look at the middle of the dung pile you'll see the 'PPC scramble effect' still moaning and weeping to be let out. What? Ah yes, certainly... it WOULD be an interesting counter to ECM and...

oh crap... you made me hope and quote TT.... the pile just got bigger. ><

Sshhhhh I didn't even mention TT or lore or battletech in my post. I didn't want to offend anyone who is opposed to a mechwarrior game resembling... mechwarrior. Sadly that seems like a lot of forum users.

Haven't tried PPC's yet, in the older iterations I was extremely partial to ER Large Lasers, and greatly enjoyed using them in "closed beta." Haven't been hit by a PPC yet either, so not sure what effect they added, though at first glance I'm glad they added something. The tone of your post makes me think it's way overdone or poorly implemented.. or both.

Two new comments:

1- I didn't realize ECM also shielded other friendly mechs, whichever one is closest to you across the entire map in radar range. So that means if there are two enemy mechs left, and one has ECM, they both reap the benefits even if they are 1000m apart. That's pretty stupid. It should only apply to the mech it is equipped on. How could an electronics suite boost the stealth abilites of a friendly mech across distances without itself generating a signal detectable by enemy radar? derp!

2- I've also seen the words "beta," "closed beta," and "open beta" thrown about pretty carelessly. I'd like to point out that this game is, by definition, in its ALPHA stage. It is not feature complete. We are in an alpha stage of development, don't be fooled by that "beta" moniker in the launcher. Note: feature complete does not mean all content added, it's the core code and implementation of various dynamics such as gametypes, core map items/structures, textures, netcode, etc. that they have been adding slowly patch by patch.
See here: http://en.wikipedia....ife_cycle#Alpha

Edited by lonewolfsx, 10 January 2013 - 09:12 AM.