284 replies to this topic

[Infine]

GB Krubarax, on 25 May 2012 - 12:41 AM, said:

I find it pretty high and mighty to risk your life to protect the civilians, the people and the peace, yes.
A defence force, by name, would not glorify war. but keeping the peace.
And handing out big boots in the rear end to pirates and other ebil-doers

But you don't protect civilians, the people or the peace. You own them. They are just your property. You protect civilians like you protect your purse. Go ahead, ask Wolverines about their civilians. Oh, wait, you can't. Nobody left to ask.
You are encouraged to decide every your petty dispute by the right of the strongest, with ritualized combat. How is that not glorifying war?

You are delusional, you lie to yourself. War is your life. And you consider everyone who does not live by war as being beneath you.

[William Petersen]

GB Krubarax, on 25 May 2012 - 12:41 AM, said:

I find it pretty high and mighty to risk your life to protect the civilians, the people and the peace, yes.
A defence force, by name, would not glorify war. but keeping the peace.
And handing out big boots in the rear end to pirates and other ebil-doers

...and yet you come back and invade. Invasion is not defense, nor is it keeping the peace. =P

The Clans fight for the sake of fighting, to keep their toumans sharp. Their whole society is based on the idea of war being the nature of man. Their states (political) are, in fact, refined war machines. They are militaristic nations on a similar level as ancient Sparta. That makes them interesting and very different to the Houses, and that contrast was kinda needed (again, I think 90% of the problems with the Clans is how they were reintroduced to the story).

Take away the ever presence of war and the clans more or less lose their identity and what makes them Clan. This is why I hate the Dark Age story line with the fury of a thousand suns. None of the Clans would ever agree to Devlin Stone's disarmament crap.

I don't think the term "warrior" for the Clan military men was chosen by accident, and I love the contrast Carth Onasi draws between "warriors" and "soldiers" in KotOR.


EDIT: I see, you clarify you were speaking of the would-have-been-reformed Star League. Never mind then, I guess. =P

Rejarial Galatan, on 25 May 2012 - 12:45 AM, said:

in the end it is THIS simple: Paul and his Developers at PGI will decide this, will decide everything, we will be lucky its not all pink when its done. We love ya paul! But seriously though, Paul and the rest of the Developer staff WILL decide it all. They are making the game, they are coding it, they know what they want. TT does NOT translate well into a true simulator as this is purportedly called. SOME TT rules break when you try to take them real time. Gonna hafta deal with it.

You sound like a broken record. Is there *any* thread in which you haven't made a vain attempt to shut out dissenting voices by saying "it's in PGI's hands"?

Edited by William Petersen, 25 May 2012 - 12:53 AM.

[Riptor]

Quote

And back in MW4, I knew a lot of Merc units, running only IS tech, that could give tha Clan units a good run for their money,
I would say it was pretty balanced.

In MW4 clan tech had its damage, range and heat buildup nerfed greatly to make the game less one sided and mroe dependant on peoples skill. The only real feelable difference was that clan weapons where alot lighter then their IS counterparts, so you could bring along more.

Had the clan equipment its original stats you would not make a reference to MW4

[Krubarax]

Again.
Please excuse me if I am expressing myself in a confusing matter.
Let me clarify.

I was saying that IF tha clans had won. The clan that captured Terra would become the IlClan, absorbing all other clans.
Then they would continue to fight, untill the "great" houses (whatever is great about them) is subdued.
After that, they would re-create the starleague, giving technology and glory back to the people of the Inner sphere, and rid them of the tyrrany and wars of the house lords and comstar.

THEN they would lower the rate of warriors produced from the breeding program, just to uphold the new STAR LEAGUE DEFENCE FORCE.
Which would be used to keep the peace.

Now I really hompe that I made that easy enough to understand.

Edited by GB Krubarax, 25 May 2012 - 12:57 AM.

[Riptor]

Quote

Again.
Please excuse me if I am expressing myself in a confusing matter.
Let me clarify.

I was saying that IF tha clans had won. The clan that captured Terra would become the IlClan, absorbing all other clans.
Then they would continue to fight, untill the "great" houses (whatever is great about them) is subdued.
After that, they would re-create the starleague, giving technology and glory back to the people of the Inner sphere, and rid them of the tyrrany and wars of the house lords and comstar.

THEN they would lower the rate of warriors produced from the breeding program, just to uphold the new STAR LEAGUE DEFENCE FORCE.
Which would be used to keep the peace.

Now I really home that I made that easy enough to understand.

And this is what i cant really believe.

The clans have shown time after time that they are capable of scheming and political maneuvres and outright assasinations. Also seeing most of the crusader clans and observing their behaviors (looking at you smokes and jades) i highly doubt that they would EVER accept anyone but themselves as rulers of all clans.

It just isnt in their blood if you might see it that way to bow down to anyone.

[Tadakuma]

Personally as somebody who played the game prior to 3050 the biggest issue I have with the Clans is that they started a trend were new source books and TROs were sold because they had more powerful weapons and toys in them. This culminated in the World of Blake Jihad, which has almost ruined the battletech universe for me.

I actually ignore anything that happens after 3067 in the Battletech universe because the writing is pure excrement.

DireWolf307, on 25 May 2012 - 12:09 AM, said:

The Periphery is a whole different mess of worms. Unfairly treated? Maybe, I could see how they could feel that. But when you're mostly made up of pirates, rouges, and less than reputable mercenary units, it's hard to get painted fairly, eh?

I personally think that the Starleague was over rated.

Actually, if you read the Re-unification war source book, the Star League makes Nazi Germany look like a Sunday school teacher. The Star League actively targeted civilian populations with WMDs, after the conflict was over civilian casualties were in the 10s of Billions.

The only house involved in the Star League who had even a shred of credibility was Marik.

House Davion did limited Civilian casualties but it was in the service of real politic. (they basically supplied the Outworld Alliance with Mechs and loaned them a Brigade of Davion Guard members to help them hold off the Kurita and Star League forces in exchange for some of the Outworld Alliance worlds). In fact some of the biggest Star League defeats of the re-unification wars came at the hands of the Davion troops.

[Krubarax]

Every clan warrior, from Mechwarrior to star Captain to Khan, would accept whatever fate brings them.
If Marthe Pryde would capture terra, her Jade Falcons would be the IlClan.
It would then be her responebility to do what ALL clans ultimatly want (though they have different means on how to accomplish it)
Restore the Star League.

All clans also agree that wastign is bad.
Wastign resources on having too many warriors and war-machines for example.

The very first thing Kerensky did, was actually to reduce the SLDF (by the time of the exodus) by 80%
For just the same resaon.

It is not so hard to believe.
What you fail to understand is what drives the CLANS as a hwole.
You grasp what drives a WARRIOR.
But All Warriors eventually die.
The plan is for society to live on

[Thanatos1973]

So, after reading through the entire thread, the best way I can see for the Clans to be brought in is to use them as NPC antagonists in missions. Follow the major story arc, they invade, we, as IS pilots fight back, after a short while, we start scrounging parts, almost like MW3, we take a map, we find salvage, so on and so fourth. It only makes sense. Eventually, we, as players could salvage enough to build an entire Mech, or capture one or more in good working order(major events).

But this is all said IMHO.

P.S., I have played both sides of the coin, IS rulse for tactics, Clans rule in Tech, they both suck in politics.

[Pvt Dancer]

You want my honest answer for the reason why I hate the clans? It is because the Clans killed table top.

I am not blaiming the Clans per say, as apparently FASA kinda planned on this from the begining. I am blaiming FASA's poor handling of the release of the Clans and that FASA failed to stress certain rules like '3 to 1' odds or 'Fire on one target till it is dead'. FASA just did such a terrible job of playtesting and of balacing the Clans that it effectivily lead to the release of 'Lost Tech' to bridge that gap /AFTER/ the fact, because people would just not follow the 'suggested guidelines'. Gee... who would have thunk.

They were also embroiled in the Harmony Gold lawsuit and kinda swirling the drain at that point. Clans kept them alive a few years longer, but they pissed off sooooo many of their old die hard table top fans that were effectivily supporting them where the new kids who didn't have to play smart and could just run up and alpha strike everything couldn't or didn't put enough money into the game to keep it going. Clans also lead to the death of Tactics for Battletech. You didn't need them because the game just made you soooo much better than everyone else in the game. It was just stupid at that point...

[Stormwolf]

Gangrel, on 25 May 2012 - 01:04 AM, said:

So, after reading through the entire thread, the best way I can see for the Clans to be brought in is to use them as NPC antagonists in missions. Follow the major story arc, they invade, we, as IS pilots fight back, after a short while, we start scrounging parts, almost like MW3, we take a map, we find salvage, so on and so fourth. It only makes sense. Eventually, we, as players could salvage enough to build an entire Mech, or capture one or more in good working order(major events).

But this is all said IMHO.

P.S., I have played both sides of the coin, IS rulse for tactics, Clans rule in Tech, they both suck in politics.

I think that is a horrible idea for the people who are invested in specific Clans.
A good bidding system would go a long way to keep gameplay balanced.

[Quentin Yatoki]

Gangrel, on 25 May 2012 - 01:04 AM, said:

So, after reading through the entire thread, the best way I can see for the Clans to be brought in is to use them as NPC antagonists in missions. Follow the major story arc, they invade, we, as IS pilots fight back, after a short while, we start scrounging parts, almost like MW3, we take a map, we find salvage, so on and so fourth. It only makes sense. Eventually, we, as players could salvage enough to build an entire Mech, or capture one or more in good working order(major events).

But this is all said IMHO.

P.S., I have played both sides of the coin, IS rulse for tactics, Clans rule in Tech, they both suck in politics.

This is what I've been thinking as well. Perhaps include captured clan mechs as rewards for superior skill.

Stormwolf, on 25 May 2012 - 01:07 AM, said:

I think that is a horrible idea for the people who are invested in specific Clans.
A good bidding system would go a long way to keep gameplay balanced.

That could work to balancing it as well.

Hopefully what ever they do, they playtest it to death, and then break it in ways not even thought possible before going live with any clan things.

Edited by Quentin Yatoki, 25 May 2012 - 01:10 AM.

[Thanatos1973]

Stormwolf, on 25 May 2012 - 01:07 AM, said:

I think that is a horrible idea for the people who are invested in specific Clans.
A good bidding system would go a long way to keep gameplay balanced.

In the long run, yes, but for the initial introduction, not realistic. those of us that can play well, but have limited time or funds would be screwed, get burned out from blasted off the map almost instantly, and would stop playing.

[Riptor]

Quote

A good bidding system would go a long way to keep gameplay balanced.

Does not work for the same reason there is no bidding system in house units.

For a bidding system to work ALL clanners would need to be organized in player led units. Yet there will be lone wolfs in the clan units. Also a bidding system does not work with the instant drop system where you just push a button and are put in a game.

And no one player is going to control a faction... this isnt EVE people. The guys that "control" the factions are the Devs, not the players.. players fight for their factions but not as them.

[Thorn Hallis]

I think the intense dislike for the Clans does not stem so much from the lore, but from the experience of people with some self-styled "Clan players" in Mechwarrior 3 and 4.

[Cifu]

GB Krubarax, on 25 May 2012 - 12:45 AM, said:

I have faith in the Devs.
Whatever they do, they will do it right.

I beg your pardon, but if they somehow nerf the clans to the bottomless pit, you still say that?

Tadakuma, on 25 May 2012 - 12:59 AM, said:

Personally as somebody who played the game prior to 3050 the biggest issue I have with the Clans is that they started a trend were new source books and TROs were sold because they had more powerful weapons and toys in them. This culminated in the World of Blake Jihad, which has almost ruined the battletech universe for me.


I actually ignore anything that happens after 3067 in the Battletech universe because the writing is pure excrement.

Actually i first play with the TT 3025 (second edition, as i can recall), and love it. The 3050 is a bit joke for me, but i actually love the clan lore. And hate the clan tech, which is completely ruined the game balance (and there is C-bill based match, and BV based match, where still many times find the fact: it's not balanced at all).

In the game world, i'm agree with you, 3067 is the absolute end of the BT lore, where is enjoyable the history, and at least in some respect, logical. But i'm say it's betted to draw the line in 3055, and forget the RAC's and such abominations.

Edited by Cifu, 25 May 2012 - 01:20 AM.

[Thanatos1973]

So back on topic, the hate for the Clans boils down to the bloated Tech, egos, and lack of originality.(except in Mech design)

However, there is something about watching multiple vollies of CLRM20s smash into an IS Assault Mech.
I miss my Madcat already.

Edited by Gangrel, 25 May 2012 - 01:21 AM.

[Krubarax]

Cifu, on 25 May 2012 - 01:19 AM, said:

I beg your pardon, but if they somehow nerf the clans to the bottomless pit, you still say that?

Well.
I would not like if the Clan vs IS mechs and equipment were like chess pieces.
They should have strenght and weaknesses to make them both interessting and playable.

But - when it all comes down to it. I want to play Clans for the sole reason of RP.
I am a clanner. My unit has been CGB since 1992.
I could not care less what the other guy pilots, as long as I get my Clan mechs.
And if my CERPPC and CGauss Rifle is EXACLY the same as the IS counterparts - so be it.
I would be disappointed. But It would, in the end, not change how I play.

Edited by GB Krubarax, 25 May 2012 - 01:25 AM.

[Cifu]

Stormwolf, on 25 May 2012 - 01:07 AM, said:

A good bidding system would go a long way to keep gameplay balanced.

Problem:

-Actually the bidding need to be overplayed somehow, with player led units.
-No one forced to bidding is balanced the game. If the lowest bid still overpowered the IS, then what? It's cannot be justified...
-And what gonna say those players, whos mechwarrior is excluded from the unit because the cut?

I don't really think the bidding can be build in the game, at least not a good working one...

Edited by Cifu, 25 May 2012 - 01:42 AM.

[Hagen von Tronje]

Hate? Not really.
But....where is the goal in playing Clan-Side?
Everybody wins with Clan-Large Pulse or something like that even my grandma with one hand bound to her back.
Ahh....but there is no better taste than beating Claners with IS-Tech.

I play Battletech Tabletop since I was 19 and I never was seduced to take Clan-Side, although I am the only one in my little group of players who is IS.
A man needs real enemies, not victims.

Go claner, tell it your mom

[Cifu]

GB Krubarax, on 25 May 2012 - 01:25 AM, said:

Well.
I would not like if the Clan vs IS mechs and equipment were like chess pieces.
They should have strenght and weaknesses to make them both interessting and playable.

But - when it all comes down to it. I want to play Clans for the sole reason of RP.
I am a clanner. My unit has been CGB since 1992.
I could not care less what the other guy pilots, as long as I get my Clan mechs.
And if my CERPPC and CGauss Rifle is EXACLY the same as the IS counterparts - so be it.
I would be disappointed. But It would, in the end, not change how I play.

Noted.

Actually the problem is: cannot satisfy everyone. If the lore followed strictly, then the "casual" (or not BT follower) players become angry. If the game balance become an issue, and the game change some rules in the light of this, then the "hardcore" BT/MW fans become angry.

I was sit, and watch how the PG try to cut this Gordian knot.