284 replies to this topic

[Phelan Kerensky]

pursang, on 24 May 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

Well, for me it's more to do with the lore of the Clans and their (known) history. I mean, how hypocritical can you be to say you're an honorable warrior, when your ancestors up and left their collective posts in the InnerSphere and thus condemned it to hundreds of years of bloodshed. And for what, exactly? One man told them too? It's pathetic if you think about it, and one of the many reasons why I dislike the Clans as a whole.

The Great Father left with the Star League because he was not willing to allow people to die by his troops and his hand. He was also unwilling to submit to any of the corrupt House Lords. Whether he left or not is irrelevant, the IS had this coming either way, had he stayed more would have died and ALL tech would have stagnated. Because he left the Star League techs remained intact.

Riptor, on 24 May 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

Well lets see here....


In terms of game mechanics: They totaly broke the balance of the game when introduced. Their mechs where faster and could carry more weapons. Said weapons where lighter, caused more damage, had far far more range then their IS counterparts, and to top it off caused less heat buildup then the IS weapons.

All in all stat wise the clans where completly OP and broken.

Lore wise? Its their "hollier then thou" attitude that they rub into everyones face. "Oh im an artificial created super soldier and so much better then you who has a real mommy!" Well boohoo.. you still arent able to take Terra.

And if they loose its never their own fault... its because their enemy didnt fight "honorable" enough or didnt follow their silly rules of engagement that they only uphold when it suits them.

And then theres the myth about bidding and zelbriggen. Bidding away forces was the clanners way of getting the right to drop first onto the battlefield, and the mroe they bid away the more they could wave their genitals in the other clans face... this and the reason that the clans had never experienced all out war was the only reason they where beaten by comstar... their own sheer arrogance.

And zelbriggen? Sure its "honorable" going 1 vs 1 when you outclass the enemy in every way possible. Thats as if you send an abrahams tank from the modern day to fight a WW2 Tiger tank. Guess whos going to be the winner?

Even thought they had all the advantages on their side they totaly blew it thanks to how unrealistic their behavior was written in the books. But even after their defeat they act as if they are better then the rest of the IS.


Now that i have stated the reasons why people could "hate" the clans let me tell you that i dont hate clan players... they are just annoying when they try to "RP"

First of all, it is not the fault of The Clans that you have inferior tech, you have only yourselves and your House Lords to blame for bringing the IS into a technological Dark Age in the Succession Wars.

It is usually just the stuanch Crusader Clans that have that sort of mentality. In Warden Clans like Wolf and Ghost Bear if a Freebirth has merit as a warrior they are accepted as a warrior with the clan, all they need do is prove themselves, the same as the Trueborns... The Clans simply believe that we are the sole hope for the IS to stop its chaotic and destructive ways as they cannot seem to do so themselves.

The idea that Clanners make excuses for their losses is also false and inaccurate. If the enemy breaks the rules of Zellbrigen the Clanners are then able to deal with them however they see fit. Therefore if they lose it is their own fault as Warriors and would willingly admit so(Unless they are the munchkin type that ruins the good name of us "True" Clanners).

The idea you have that the Clans have never faced all out war are very inaccurate and could not be farther from the truth. When the Clans finally began settling the Pentagon worlds after the first Exodus many of the old House hatreds and disputes began forming once again. This lead to very devastating warfare. As part of a "second Exodus" the Clans left the Pentagon worlds to form the basis that is the Clans we know today. They would then proceed to return to the Pentagon Worlds and retake them. Zellbrigen was formed as a way to avoid the devastation wrought to the civilian populace, tech, industry, etc of the Society. This ensured the clans survival and advancement. I will also remind you that Clan Wolf had a Major Victory and Ghost Bear a Minor Victory on Tukayyid. The Jade Falcons had a draw. This shows that not all of the Clans that fought on Tukayyid were beaten by comstar and were in fact, proven through battle, superior to the Comstar forces that fought them on Tukayyid.

As for the 1v1 rule within Zellbrigen, this was created mostly because of The Great Founder's Brother's death at the hands of 4 MechWarriors who ganged up on him while he was alone. He was a great warrior and would have most likely defeated all of them had it been a fair fight. The IS has no right to complain about the fighting 1v1 against the Clans to be unfair simply because it is their own fault they lost their tech from the Star League Era, the Clans were smart enough to take care of and improve said technology.

I have every right to RP whichever faction or character role as anyone else. The majority of Clan players are not munchkins who go for the tech and wander around like trolls, they simply give us "True" Clanners a bad name.

Rejarial Galatan, on 24 May 2012 - 11:40 PM, said:

nope. read you right. Oh, guess I should add in, just for you, we are not afraid to get in face to face and slug it out hand to hand with our mechs. Some of our mechs are BUILT for it.

Actually, Melee combat with mechs IS considered dishonorable among the Clans, some clans are much more liberal/lenient on this though.

Ramien, on 24 May 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

In the end, I don't hate the Clans.

I pity them.

A trueborn member of the Clans will never know what it truly means to be a warrior, or a scientist, or whatever other castes they divide themselves into.
They are born warriors.
They are bred warriors.
They are trained from birth to be warriors.
Being a warrior is all they know.

We of the Inner Sphere choose to be warriors, and that makes all the difference.
If we're not under contract, we can retire at any time
Nobody would blame us.
Nobody would even have to know.
Only our own desire to keep piloting keeps us in the cockpit.
Our will drives us forward, instead of our traditions pushing us in some direction that we may as well call forward.

Some lucky Clan freebirths will understand this at least in part. A freebirth will have had to fight for their position, against a system that denies them based on their birth rather than considering their merits.

I will note here that it would be very hard to understand Clan Culture when you are opponents of it, who are you to say that you are more of a Warrior than I, should you wish to prove this fact I am certain that any Clan Warrior would be willing to step into a circle of equals with you. The Clans can understand IS culture because they experienced its failures in the Devastation that took place on the fighting for the Pentagon Worlds, it is also the reason for the Exodus. I will also remind you that many of the people living in Clan controlled space, especially Warden space, whom were originally IS citizens, enjoy many of the same freedoms as they did before and more. they are not faced with the corruption, greed, and **** for power/power mongering that they had to deal with under their House Lords.

I will also have you all know that some Clans, especially Warden Clans, are very liberal/lenient on rules about Freebirths, speech, their caste system, and often times, combat.

[mitsurugi]

MacabreDerek, on 25 May 2012 - 01:52 AM, said:

Personally, I have no real love for the IS or the Clans. Particularly after reading Twilight of the Clans, I just realized that save for a select few, the whole of the universe could burn and I could not care less. Though the Clan way of life was fascinating to study, lore wise there really is very little there to grab ahold of, and Katerine Steiner single-handedly made me feel like the whole of the Inner Sphere should be doused in gasoline and lit up in flame.

That being said, when it comes to Clans you have to realize that they were working with very little, and there entire society was based on waste-reduction and compartmentalization. To many of us living as we do, we find this state of being deplorable, especially when we realize the whole of a Clan is dedicated to being as close to a Total War Machine as possible. Age of 3, you're undergoing physical training, age of 5, you learn to maim, age 6 you learn to kill, age 8+ is how to do it properly/efficiently. Only after testing to see if a person would make it into the Warrior Caste first, do the wash-outs get put into 'lower' castes, but every Trueborn is formally trained and raised as a killer, where war is a sport and each one is so far removed from the realities and fallout of war that they quite litterally made it into a game.

However, for it's purpose, to re-take the Inner Sphere, it's almost brilliant in it's single-minded devotion to murder and war. It's the one thing that the Inner Sphere never truely became. The Clans were forced to do more with less with the most brilliant minds of the Inner Sphere of Kerensky's day, and built technologies in mechs and medicine with the emphasis on reduction of losses and reduction of waste to maintain, hence the development of the Omnimech and the Clan Tech. The failing was Clans were in-fighting for aprox 300 years, so when they went against the Inner Sphere they were in for a rude shock against a culture who the idea of reducing waste and sport-of-war were unheard of.

Most (Rightly so) complain about game-balance. Some look at the lore and find it difficult (Understandably) to follow along and empathise with the Clans perspective, and those that do often take it to such heart that some (Not all) become almost unapproachable.

The Clan attitude that is often smug "I'm better than you" doesnt help, and what's worse is more often than not they can back it up. They have been in competition for the right to fight for so long that if they are still around, there is a good chance their training (Which again, starts from when they could crawl) and experience puts them above 99% of the possible opponents they face. What's worse is they have the genetics to back it up, as each one is born and bred for combat, so physically they are already ahead.

The end result is a culture that is as close to the ideal of Total Warfare Dedication that is perversely frightening to behold, yet aluring as a thought experiment. In the end people will tell you how boring they are, I'd have to half-heartedly agree, but if there is some interest, it comes from the neuances and twists in the clan doctrine that exists in each Clan. As a story with characters though, it just falls flat on it's face, hits it's head on a rock, and spills it's brains out on the dirt.

I got into the game right when clans started out, but didn't buy any of the books ( just started out and had no money to work with) so I just stook with what the starter pack had. I did however play with a few clanners from back then and thought it was wild and new and fun. After that I looked at the clan lore and fluff, and being a book and story nerd, I read what I could, and I thought at the time that they were flat, and a bit klunky. Now, with an even knowledge pool to draw, I can honestly say that the clans were, and I am sorry to say this, a failed experiment on top of being a poorly executed plot point. The game makers did not, repeat did not, do a thing with the meta-level tactics of the game when they made them, with the results causing what we have remembered and see today. The tech end, was ok, considering the base they had drawn from, and I would be ok with it being kept, if the clans were retooled, but their ideology has some contradictions that have been noted in the previous posts and are detailed, so I won't go into them. Also, in the post of the idea as to how the clans should have invaded, that would only work if they had the ftl tech TO get there, otherwise I'd be ok with it. After that inital frell up, comstar would have come in to keep control and would be the focal point of the other houses to get behind; comstar being the mediator and center of power, using the communication monopoly as leverage. Tukayyid was a true Deus-Ex_Machina really, and that's sad. I would have liked that after a shrunken IS, centered on an super massive military on Terra, would learn of the clan ideals after their losses and the few victories won by the IS, and more so when the anti clan bits went for a counter offensive and just took back all the planets. And the katrina bit, Ehhh, power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. The jihad however was just marketing being a ****** on the writers.
The game devlopers would have to re-work everything clan from ground up if they wanted to do it this time. With the kinds of story ideas and events going on currently, it would be idiotic to use the clans as they stand now, rule wise, in any shape or form. Its just not up to the quality of what the public expects today.

[Medicinehat]

Clans are funny. They've got super amazing equpment that blows everything in the inner sphere out of the water. But they make up all these arbitrary rules for fighting that greatly diminishes their effectiveness. Then when they lose they blame it on the enemy's lack of honor. Because, *of course* they'd win if enemy hadn't refused to fight in the dumbest way possible. So they set themselves up to be tragic ubermenschs that were just too pure for this world.
I'm sure you can understand why some people would bristle at that and prefer to fight for their right to be apathetic underhanded lazy jerks.

Edited by Medicinehat, 25 May 2012 - 03:20 AM.

[Infine]

GB Krubarax, on 25 May 2012 - 02:28 AM, said:

Firt off.
I said wasting resources.
Second - playing a video game might be wasteful - but were we not debating Clan vs Inner Sphere?
I fail to see how what I do IRL has anything to do with it.
The clans abhore wasting resources. You may bicycle at your liesure.

We are debating Clan vs IS. I'm making my point from an IS citizen point of view.
Time is the most valuable resource known to mankind. It can not be replenished. Using your severely limited time on cycling is not using it on contributing to society. It is wasteful.

GB Krubarax, on 25 May 2012 - 02:28 AM, said:

If you are going to reduce your fighting force, which is supposedly used to keep the peace, obviously you want the best people to do it.
Thats why there are no 15 year or 80 year old old firefighters. They have to be the right person for the job.

Yes. YES! You need the best people for the job. It's just another job. Those best people for the job are not best people. They are best for the job. They are not better than those 80% who got kicked out. They are just better for the job. But, you see, the problem with clans is, for those people it was the only activity they knew of, the only activity they cared for. For them being best for this very job was equal to being best people. For them it was the only real job, the only worthy job. And such people created a society. This society inevitabely upheld not Star League values, it upheld military values.

Edited by Infine, 25 May 2012 - 03:35 AM.

[Sylow]

Phelan Kerensky, on 25 May 2012 - 03:07 AM, said:

[...]

And here i am, wondering if i should go through this complete thread and just put everybody who's reasoning from an RP point of view on my ignore list. For how big can the analytical abilities of somebody be, if he's unable to distinguish between a subjective RP thread and an unbiased OOC thread?

So really people: with your "we in character believe that we are so much better than you" attitude, you don't help the matter but only answer the original question of the thread by being a very bad example.

[Quentin Yatoki]

Sylow, on 25 May 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

And here i am, wondering if i should go through this complete thread and just put everybody who's reasoning from an RP point of view on my ignore list. For how big can the analytical abilities of somebody be, if he's unable to distinguish between a subjective RP thread and an unbiased OOC thread?

So really people: with your "we in character believe that we are so much better than you" attitude, you don't help the matter but only answer the original question of the thread by being a very bad example.

This so much.

If you like the Clan in real life, then provide us with the reasons why you like the Clans so much. Convince us, provide us with real world reasons that we should not hate the Clans as a in-game faction. But don't RP and talk down to everyone else who doesn't like the Clans as if you are some how superior to them. You are no more a Clan Warrior then I am a Kuritan. So act like an adult and have a serious discussion with us.

[Phelan Kerensky]

William Canavi, on 25 May 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

Another excellent point, but he did the things he did because he felt the Periphery wasn't being treated fairly. Which... Really, it wasn't. At least in my opinion.

GB Krubarax, on 25 May 2012 - 12:13 AM, said:

What a sadly empty life you must life.

To be honest, Amaris was a tyrant who lusted for power and did not truly care about the periphery. He abandoned them when The Great Father's forces moved against them for the Star League. Amaris also butchered more innocents, including those from the periphery than were killed in 10 entire repeats of WW2.

As for the second part, you do not know how we live or how we enjoy life because you have an arrogant opposition to our culture. To truly understand us you must see us in action, be around us, and best of all, become one of us.

Vulpesveritas, on 25 May 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

If I may say, seeking death is stupid. The most honorable thing, at least in this being's opinion, is to pass down knowledge and wisdom to those younger than yourself. I also find it stupid that death means you get a spot in your breeding tubes.

... also


This. You really should try to relax and enjoy being alive.

Death does not mean a spot in the Genetic Repository of one's clan. Honor and Glory in battle, do determine such. The Clans also have a superior method of passing down knowledge than the IS does. The older warriors are stationed to train the Sibkos for their future and teach them what it is to be a great warrior. We do not allow our older warriors to fight in front line units, in part, for this very reason. Everyone in the clan serves the clan in the capacity in which they would be the best benefit for themselves and the Clan as a whole. Clan citizens, no matter the caste, also enjoy a life of freedom not found in the IS.

Infine, on 25 May 2012 - 12:11 AM, said:

I have one question actually.

So the clans want to return and rule the Inner Sphere to bring it to it's former glory of the Star League. For that they prepared themselves for many years, advanced military technologies and combat training (though I'd have to disagree with the latter).

But over this, the clans became a warrior society. So, suppose clans take over IS. What's next? Their goal is reached. What now? Clans only know war. Who would they war with? What would they fight for?

A noble goal became their reason of existance. No. It became THE existance for them. The IS "freebirth scum" fight for thier home, fight for their family, fight for their ideals. The "noble trueborn" fight because it's the only thing they can do, the only thing they know of. Their existance would become meaningless would they achieve their goal.

"Know that I have taken the remnant of the Star League Defense Force which has remained true to its purpose beyond the boundaries of the Inner Sphere, beyond the Periphery. I have done this, neither out of disappointment with those whom we leave behind, nor out of spite or disdain, as some will say. No, we have left the Inner Sphere because we love it too much to see it destroyed. In the wake of the Usurper's coup, and the long, bitter fighting that came with it, I fear that my forces would do incalculable, possibly irreparable, harm to our society. We are sworn to ward the Star League and its subjects, not destroy it.
"Thus, we have left the only homes we have ever known to place the destructive capability of this armada beyond the reach of those who would use it, not for defense, but for conquest. Perhaps, with the might of our 'Mechs and ships out of reach, the leaders who now grapple with one another will relinquish their dreams of subjugating their neighbors and learn to live in peace with them.
"Perhaps, one day, should mankind step back from the brink of the abyss, we, our children, or our children's children will return, to once more serve and protect and guide the Star League in mankind's quest for the stars."

Read this, oh so noble trueborn warriors. Now tell me there's no spite or disdain in your words, now say that your twisted beliefs will do no harm to the society of the IS, now tell me you stive for defence, not conquest. Now tell me you want peace, tell me you want to serve and protect.

Face it. You've became what the Great General feared the most. You fought monsters, and you became monsters.

This is also false, I will explain why. You are explaining only 1 belief of the Clans, that of the Crusader. You have yet to focus the intention of the Wardens, which is, to protect the Inner Sphere from threats both external and internal, both from themselves and their enemies, even if that be other clans. I have also stated before how many former IS citizens are treated very well in much of Clan controlled space, and they do not suffer the tyranny of their former House Lords either.

William Petersen, on 25 May 2012 - 12:12 AM, said:

Tell that to Clan Wolverine.

Trial of Annihilation requires a unanimous vote in the appropriate council. That is, every single Khan voted, not to absorb, not to abjure, but to utterly destroy laborers, scientists, technicians, merchants, warriors, men, women, children.

Clearly not all radicals. Not at all.


EDIT:

I see, so it's just English at which you're poor.

I will now attempt to educate this Spheroid in the truth of the Clans. The not-named clan defied the Council and threatened to turn the Kerensky Cluster into a repeat of the fighting on the Pentagon Worlds that nearly tore Clan Society apart. Clan Wolverine also set off a nuke on another Clan's repository, this would be like setting off a nuke in a hospital/school where the majority of your nation's children are at, this has the potential to devastate the future of your nation and is a heinous act of dishonor. When the not-named clan waged Total War and used terrorist tactics against the Clans the was no other options than to wipe them out, had any remained they would have continued to carry out attacks against the clans. If they did not do it after absorbed they surely would have after when their ancestors were given any chance at doing so.

I also know many who "speak English" who are poor at it. Also keep in mind that to understand our society and our ways you must have been a Clanner to begin with or must integrate into our society.



Short answear:
1.Restore the Starleague
2. Halt the breeding program. Or limit it to produce enough warriors to sustain the SLDF
3. Profit!

Star Colonel Tseng speaks the truth!

Vulpesveritas, on 25 May 2012 - 12:15 AM, said:

See... that Solahma thing is idiotic in and of itself; as is the clan prospect that ageing is dishonorable. You can learn a great deal from your elders that you cannot otherwise. Simple thing is, every society is flawed, clan or non-clan. The greatest thing one can truly do is enjoy every day of their life and never have any regret. The greatest honor to be had is the respect and love given freely by other sentient beings.
Plus, if you are truly skilled no opponent will ever defeat you in combat anyhow.

I have already explained that the old are not useless to the Clans and serve a great purpose in teaching our young Sibkos to become great warriors. Clan warriors also enjoy their lives by having fun and gaining Glory and Honor in combat. the Clans also have many games they participate in to enjoy their lives. I suggest you read up more on our society before you start making inaccurate claims like that.

[Max Liao]

Sylow, on 25 May 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

And here i am, wondering if i should go through this complete thread and just put everybody who's reasoning from an RP point of view on my ignore list. For how big can the analytical abilities of somebody be, if he's unable to distinguish between a subjective RP thread and an unbiased OOC thread?

So really people: with your "we in character believe that we are so much better than you" attitude, you don't help the matter but only answer the original question of the thread by being a very bad example.

I disagree with you pretty much 100%. While I am neither a clanner nor a clan supporter - contractions are my friends - as indicated in my post HERE, role-playing is what brings the BattleTech universe alive. In fact it helps to make the point of what it means to be a clanner (or not). It is precisely because of the LACK of role-playing, or the understanding of the RP aspects of playing a Clan that fuels the divisiveness.

When it's all just math and number the class are broken - overpowered munchkin tech at best. The only weakness to playing Clan IS the RP aspect that, in my experience, never translates into the game. So while I may contend that some people aren't really RPing Clans - that is totally subjective and this thread is not the place for that.

The Clan players show their strengths and weaknesses in their RP. They also show their love for the game, the BT Universe, and the community as a whole.

Edited by Max Liao, 25 May 2012 - 03:40 AM.

[DevlinCognito]

Personally I was Davion before the invasion & wasnt going to jump ship just because the Clans came along with their high tech gizmos, & I'm not going to jump ship now. I think thats the long & the short of it for plenty of old school players.

The fact plenty of Clanners attempt to act superior just adds to the dislike.

[Redburn]

Who are these "Clans" you speak of?

I know of no group of individuals in the Inner Sphere who refer to themselves by this name. Is this another of the numerous groups of unknown peoples throughout the vastness of our space pursuing their militant, political or economic goals? Do we not have enough problems?

[Krubarax]

Fine;
RP off

I like the clans because I find them fun and interessting.

I have to agree with one thing though.
You simply can not argue with that

RP on.

[Sylow]

GB Krubarax, on 25 May 2012 - 03:38 AM, said:

I like the clans because I find them fun and interessting.

That's the point i can never say anything against. They are fun for you, great. Beat up the people in game, have all the smash-talk in an IC thread and it's awesome. But you having fun by playing clans doesn't answer the question, why many people dislike the clans. Unless there's something big about you which i don't know...

[Quentin Yatoki]

GB Krubarax, on 25 May 2012 - 03:38 AM, said:

Fine;
RP off

I like the clans because I find them fun and interessting.

I have to agree with one thing though.
You simply can not argue with that

RP on.

Fair enough, what is it about them that you find fun and interesting?

[Insidious Johnson]

Well, currently there are no playable marauding pirates to be the focal whipping boys of the houses. So those of us who hope to play as pirates view clans the same way as the rest of the IS : as Lostech pinatas to be pulverized and shredded for goodies. The other lens of the pirate sunglasses see clans as that wonderful speeding decoy through the IS attracting all the attention of Johnny Law. One quick paint job and a quick primer on clan coms chatter means no one will know until I'm long gone that I wasn't a clanner.

[oohawkoo]

dont really hate em =3 kinda like em actualy.. they arnt insane or evil.. unlike some of the houses in the inner sphear ... just really really stuborn.... i cant even fault their leaders reason for leaveing ... i mean from his point of veiw fighting was gonna be pointless the civil war was comeing and not mater what he and his ppl did the star league is gone it just didnt know it ...... they did get highly aggressive but at least they bound that aggression with codes of honur

well from what i see its mostly cos there isnt enough back story on em no info about how they really live etc .... i could be wrong

[Krubarax]

Well you got me there.
I guess my hwole existance in this thread is invalid, since I do not hate the clans.
I have been debating, from a RP-ish point of view why I like them.
Shame on me.

And since some people get offended/frustrated/sad/hurt when you RP, I took that part out. And look how fun discussion topic it made.
I guess it alls boils down to what you like and what you dislike and what you think is fun and not.

My 2 C-bills (dough! - sorry RPing again) is that it gets a bit more interesting if you Role Play, since it is entirely possible, in some circumstances, that you might like one thing or another, because of the "in-universe-value" of it - and not just maths and dice.

[Phelan Kerensky]

Riptor, on 25 May 2012 - 12:16 AM, said:

I dont RP because this is not an RP thread. How about you leave your RP outside the serious discussions and keep it to threads that are actually meant to be RPed in?

This dick waving contest going on is also a reason why people dislike clanners.

But it still amuses me that the "trueborn" "bred to be a warrior" and the only true "honourable" clanners speak of such things as "ring of equals" when they bring a machinegun to a knife fight.

Or how they speak about them being better when one of their clans comitted mass murder.

The clans arent better then the IS... they are just a different culture. And it would be fine with me if i could turn around a corner without a clanner waving his junk in my face and harping on about how much better he is then me for the simple fact that he was bred in a tube and had no mommy to cuddle him when he was little.

Just look at their politics... the only reason they havent wiped each other out was that almost twilight level fanboyish dream of claiming terra and then somehow being the sole ruler of humankind.

If they had reached their goal you can bet your shiny omnimechs they would have done exactly the same as the great houses. Dont believe me? Well how about you ask the Wolverines or Widowmakers. Whoops.. to bad.. they where anihilated.

But then they never achieved their goals because they where to stupid and arrogant to realize the real meaning of war. (the canon clanners.. not calling any clan players stupid here)

Any military strategist would have eaten his own uniform at the VERY BASIC STRATEGIC FAILURES the clans committed on Tukayid. Sure lets charge down this narrow canyon... its a brilliant idea doing that even thought we know the enemy is waiting to ambush us.... or lets drop down without any logistic backup with ammo heavy loadouts... surely no one can question the brilliance of running out of ammo in the middle of a war?

Romanticizing war is not going to make you better at it let me tell you.

The clans see war as a sport.. and that was their undoing.. there is nothing great about war and its never honourable killing people.



I am sure all those women and children deserved what they got because their military used weapons of mass destruction...

Damn those dirty children for using atom bombs....

Sorry mate, you don't like people doing rp here, I suggest you deal with it like a mature adult or go someplace else, the rpers, inclding myself, aren't going anywhere. We are very eager to enjoy this universe again in any way possible considering how long it may have been for most of us since we have been able to enjoy the BT/MW universe.

The idea of us bringing a machine gun to a knife fight is most likely a reference to our having greater tech and is also something you should look into. The Clans have greater tech simply because we avoided the fate of the IS and kept our technology intact. The IS was dumb enough to wage 4 large, brutal, devastating, and ultimately, pointless wars in which they threw themselves into a technological dark age. Had they worked harder to protect their technology they would have had greater mechs and tech than the Clans simply because of their production capabilities. While the IS blew itself apart the Clans took and improved the Star League Era technology we had.

The Clans as a whole cannot be held responsible for what the others do, especially when they have often fought one another as well. The IS Houses have all committed atrocities, and not just against their enemies, but against their own people. I find the corruption and tyranny of the Houses of the IS to be humorous at best.

Many Clanners do not go around bragging how we are better. We show that fact in combat, the Clans have also recognized brave warriors of the IS in the Remembrance a few times as well. Also keep in mind that it is the Crusader Clans that are the ones who wish to shove it in the Spheroids' faces that they are better and dominate them. The Wardens do not do the same thing and actually hold those Honorable of the IS in high regard. Your problem is that you simply do not understand the different Clans and their varying cultures and societies.

There was a long period when the Clans were not thinking about taking Terra and were instead improving their technologies, economies, industries, and the overall prosperity of their peoples as a whole. Though the Clans are primarily Warriors they have shown(if your actually willing to look and read up on this)that they are capable of a great many arts and improvements that do not have to do with war.

The argument about the not-named clan being annihilated and the Widowmaker Clan being Absorbed(that's right, not annihilated, just absorbed into a different Clan)are irrelevant to that argument. this is because there were far more than just a few Clans and only 2 were brought down in all those years despite the great number of Clans.

I will also have you keep in mind that Clan Wolf and ghost Bear won on Tukayyid, Wolf had a major victory and the Ghost Bears had a Minor victory, they outdid your Comstar in every way possible. Wolf guarded their supplies, conducted hit and run/guerilla attacks against the Comstar forces there and were very strategic in the way with which they conducted battle. I would also have you know that both these Clans are Warden Clans that still have a high regard for Honor but are also more adaptable, efficient, liberal/lenient in such things, especially combat.

The IS has done nothing but wage war on itself so the point that the Clans are all about war is extremely invalid, especially considering how the Clans advanced(not just in military tech)in many ways for their societies and improved themselves while the IS blew itself to Oblivion.

many of the IS Houses annihilated whole peoples, slaughtered women and children, etc, as well. This was also a reserved occasion, this sort of thing happened in the IS on a very frequent basis during the Succession Wars.

William Petersen, on 25 May 2012 - 12:22 AM, said:

Finally! Someone who uses that word correctly! I'd hug you, but you'd probably break my ribs.

Using WMDs in defense of being utterly annihilated by a force over twenty-times it's size? Yeah, how dare they try to survive by any means necessary.

Also, Amaris was of the Terran Hedgemony. Y'know, the heart of the Star League, the only Inner Sphere power that no longer exists?


Anywho, I still sincerely doubt that a Clan, *any* clan, even circa 3050 Wolf would have much tolerance for people slandering either Kerensky, the Clan society on the whole, or even mentioning Clan Wolverine. That's not really much of a free society like the Star League, is it? Individual clans may be more or less strict on the Caste system, I forget; it has been many years since I pored over my Crusader and Warden source books. =)

I also recall that many who spoke out against the leader of the "Great Houses" of the IS were eliminated very frequently, as was anyone who opposed their rules or ideals... So this, overall, does not say much.

[Max Liao]

GB Krubarax, on 25 May 2012 - 03:48 AM, said:

Well you got me there.
I guess my hwole existance in this thread is invalid, since I do not hate the clans.
I have been debating, from a RP-ish point of view why I like them.
Shame on me.

And since some people get offended/frustrated/sad/hurt when you RP, I took that part out. And look how fun discussion topic it made.
I guess it alls boils down to what you like and what you dislike and what you think is fun and not.

My 2 C-bills (dough! - sorry RPing again) is that it gets a bit more interesting if you Role Play, since it is entirely possible, in some circumstances, that you might like one thing or another, because of the "in-universe-value" of it - and not just maths and dice.

In real life I am about as far away from a Capellan as one can be. I am a Capitalist, I believe in personal freedom, responsibility, and accountability over government intrusions and caste systems, but I have been (role-playing) a Capellan ever since Russian classes in high school in the 80s.

Actually I picked them because my friends all picked Davion and Kurita and when I kept beating them I said, "I'll play the little green guy." The rest is history.

I love the lore and the underdog aspect of the Capellans, and (when I play the game) I actually try to role-play as a Sino-Soviet citizen following the Sarna Mandate and the Order of Lorix.

[Sylow]

GB Krubarax, on 25 May 2012 - 03:48 AM, said:

Well you got me there.
I guess my hwole existance in this thread is invalid, since I do not hate the clans.
I have been debating, from a RP-ish point of view why I like them.
Shame on me.

And since some people get offended/frustrated/sad/hurt when you RP, I took that part out. And look how fun discussion topic it made.
I guess it alls boils down to what you like and what you dislike and what you think is fun and not.

My 2 C-bills (dough! - sorry RPing again) is that it gets a bit more interesting if you Role Play, since it is entirely possible, in some circumstances, that you might like one thing or another, because of the "in-universe-value" of it - and not just maths and dice.

Yea, yea. Sorry if my comment was so much "full stop". I guess that was also over the top, but where to find a good middle line, when reading through the whole thead and just finding numerous postings holding the toxic bile, which for the new player (not even aligned with any faction yet) appears derogatory?

If somebody right on first contact declares you to be unworthy, chances are high that you won't consider him and his faction to be your best friend, right? This thread was started by somebody not already years into BT and its lore, and as publicity of the game increases, we'll have to expect more and more people with such background arriving. Thus, sorry for taking the "speed" out of the thread, i just think that different ways of communicating with each other are appropriate for different kinds of thready.

(But of course i should not blame you. You have lived outside the light and wisdom of Blake for so long, i should rather take my time to teach you, instead of looking down on you... ) {I guess you understand my message. The newcommer will frown upon this, too, and rightfully so. }

[Krubarax]

Quentin Yatoki, on 25 May 2012 - 03:45 AM, said:

Fair enough, what is it about them that you find fun and interesting?

Well that is a good question! And one I have been waiting a long time to talk about, because this is the stuff I am interested in.
This might take this thread slightly (moar) off topic though.

I am very interested in Science, biology and history.
I fidn past civilizations very interesting. What values did they have? how did they live their lives? What whas sacred to them and what was tabu to them?
Evolution is interesting.
Evolution of species, evolution of technology and evolution of culture.

To me, the most amazing thing that could EVER happen to the human race, is the discovery of another sentient race amongs the stars.
An alien civilization.
Just think of how different they must be!! Their music, fashion, litterature, architecture!
How did they evolve, what values and spiritual beliefs do they have?
What shaped their society?

THIS is what is interesting with the clans.
It is a splinter faction of the human race - separated by enormous distances and a very logn time (I always thought 300 years was way to little though. The writers should have made it more like 2000-3000 years)
I think the writers maede an awesome job in creating an Alien society - derived from our human society.
They have created a background story, that explains why clanners think like they think. do what they do. live like they live.
It is very different.
They have different family values, different values of life. Different values of themselves. their purpose.
They talk differntly. They even have trouble understandign such basic feelings as love.
Natural reproduction is un-natural to them. They can not even comprehend it!

I find that VERY facinating.
Trying to put myself in their shoes. See the world with different eyes.
Try forgettign everything I have learned and everything I know, and try to see things from an entirely different point of view.

That is somethign I believe makes the BT-universe completly unique.
For clans are not *evil* per definition.
This I have come to understand because of my facination with them.
They see thigns differently.
The things we interpret as evil - is that they want to enforce their "better ways" on us.
And all systems work the same. the main point of any system is to uphold itself.
We do not want change.

This is kind of the crusade of "democracy" and "freedom" of the real word.
But THAT is a completly different subject.
I should end now