284 replies to this topic

[Infine]

GB Krubarax, on 25 May 2012 - 01:03 AM, said:

All clans also agree that wastign is bad.
Wastign resources on having too many warriors and war-machines for example.

And WHY do clans agree that wasting is bad? Right! Because early clans lacked resources.
So, as a civilian, can I haz mah cheezburger, or wasting is bad and I should have this tasteles nutrinous paste instead?
Can I go play MechWarrior, or wasting my time on silly toys is bad, and I should dig more minerals or read some book on thermodynamics?

GB Krubarax, on 25 May 2012 - 01:03 AM, said:

The very first thing Kerensky did, was actually to reduce the SLDF (by the time of the exodus) by 80%
For just the same resaon.

Please refresh my memory on how it was done and the feelings of those 80% who were left out. Weren't they feeling kinda sad, devalued?
You know, weren't they feeling that being a warrior is better than not being a warrior?

GB Krubarax, on 25 May 2012 - 01:03 AM, said:

What you fail to understand is what drives the CLANS as a hwole.
You grasp what drives a WARRIOR.
But All Warriors eventually die.
The plan is for society to live on

No. I perfectly understand what drives a Warrior.
Duty drives a Soldier. Fame and blood **** drive a Warrior. Soldier fights because it's the only thing he can do to defend what is precious to him. Warrior fights because fighting is precious to him. Being a warrior is the definition of wasteful.
And it's a plan for the CLAN society to live on, the efficent society, the unwasteful society, the caste society. The soulles grey mass of an ant hive that exists on, not lives on.

[Stormwolf]

Riptor, on 25 May 2012 - 01:14 AM, said:

Does not work for the same reason there is no bidding system in house units.

For a bidding system to work ALL clanners would need to be organized in player led units. Yet there will be lone wolfs in the clan units. Also a bidding system does not work with the instant drop system where you just push a button and are put in a game.

And no one player is going to control a faction... this isnt EVE people. The guys that "control" the factions are the Devs, not the players.. players fight for their factions but not as them.

Cifu, on 25 May 2012 - 01:34 AM, said:

Problem:

-Actually the bidding need to be overplayed somehow, with player led units.
-No one forced to bidding is balanced the game. If the lowest bid still overpowered the IS, then what? It's cannot be justified...
-And what gonna say those players, whos mechwarrior is excluded from the unit because the cut?

I don't really think the bidding can be build in the game, at least not a good working one...

You are both missing the obvious here.

The IS team would obviously drop first.

This would set a maximum BV that restrains the Clan side with their mech selection.
The Clan side would never be able to field forces with higher BV then the IS.

The Clan side could easily pick any mech they want if it is a 1 star vs 3 lances setup.

[LordDeathStrike]

MortarionX, on 24 May 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

Obviously im not well versed in Mech Warrior Lore. I discovered Mech Warrior in MW 4 Mercs and I love it. But, looking around the forums I've seen that there seems to be a lot of hate/indefference toward the Clans and Clan tech. Is Clan tech not usually superior? Some explanation would be nice.

too put it simply. the reason the clan tech is hated in 3049, is because its broken. its so much more powerfull because the table top game people wanted you to go out and buy all new armies to use it instead of your old inner sphere mechs.

in video game terms this translates to enemies having major range advantages, alot more lighter weapons that take up less space, and way better heat sinks.

as long as the devs take into account that the tabletop version of clans was made super OP to sell new mechs and rulebooks and balance it back down to only a minor advantage over IS gear with trade offs on things like reliability and durability, itll be just fine.

[MacabreDerek]

Personally, I have no real love for the IS or the Clans. Particularly after reading Twilight of the Clans, I just realized that save for a select few, the whole of the universe could burn and I could not care less. Though the Clan way of life was fascinating to study, lore wise there really is very little there to grab ahold of, and Katerine Steiner single-handedly made me feel like the whole of the Inner Sphere should be doused in gasoline and lit up in flame.

That being said, when it comes to Clans you have to realize that they were working with very little, and there entire society was based on waste-reduction and compartmentalization. To many of us living as we do, we find this state of being deplorable, especially when we realize the whole of a Clan is dedicated to being as close to a Total War Machine as possible. Age of 3, you're undergoing physical training, age of 5, you learn to maim, age 6 you learn to kill, age 8+ is how to do it properly/efficiently. Only after testing to see if a person would make it into the Warrior Caste first, do the wash-outs get put into 'lower' castes, but every Trueborn is formally trained and raised as a killer, where war is a sport and each one is so far removed from the realities and fallout of war that they quite litterally made it into a game.

However, for it's purpose, to re-take the Inner Sphere, it's almost brilliant in it's single-minded devotion to murder and war. It's the one thing that the Inner Sphere never truely became. The Clans were forced to do more with less with the most brilliant minds of the Inner Sphere of Kerensky's day, and built technologies in mechs and medicine with the emphasis on reduction of losses and reduction of waste to maintain, hence the development of the Omnimech and the Clan Tech. The failing was Clans were in-fighting for aprox 300 years, so when they went against the Inner Sphere they were in for a rude shock against a culture who the idea of reducing waste and sport-of-war were unheard of.

Most (Rightly so) complain about game-balance. Some look at the lore and find it difficult (Understandably) to follow along and empathise with the Clans perspective, and those that do often take it to such heart that some (Not all) become almost unapproachable.

The Clan attitude that is often smug "I'm better than you" doesnt help, and what's worse is more often than not they can back it up. They have been in competition for the right to fight for so long that if they are still around, there is a good chance their training (Which again, starts from when they could crawl) and experience puts them above 99% of the possible opponents they face. What's worse is they have the genetics to back it up, as each one is born and bred for combat, so physically they are already ahead.

The end result is a culture that is as close to the ideal of Total Warfare Dedication that is perversely frightening to behold, yet aluring as a thought experiment. In the end people will tell you how boring they are, I'd have to half-heartedly agree, but if there is some interest, it comes from the neuances and twists in the clan doctrine that exists in each Clan. As a story with characters though, it just falls flat on it's face, hits it's head on a rock, and spills it's brains out on the dirt.

Edited by MacabreDerek, 25 May 2012 - 02:21 AM.

[Krubarax]

Do you really need a "why" to why wasting is bad?
Why do you not then go about telling me why wasting, in any situation is good?
That would be very interesting.

Wasting is bad because there are always limited resources? How about that for a fact?

As Already mentioned, the overall goal of the clans is to restore the star league.
If you want to debate what the star league stood for, how star league era life was, or the good and bad aspects of the star league, well that is an entirely different thread.
The Star League was NOT, however, built like Clan society.
Clan Society was created to preserve the core of the star league, untill the Clans could return and re-instate it.

So your arguments are invalid, my friend.

The SLDF was reduced, durign the exodus, by various very hard test and evaluations.
Only the best were allowed to remain on active duty. I fail to see how that fact alone is any different from any army.
The rest were put to good use based on their skills.
It was harsh times and no one were told it was going to be a joy ride.
Adapt and survive was the tune of the pipes.

You might understand what drives a warrior.
You might understand what drives a soldier.
And you have a fair bit of understanding of semantics.
But you still fail to understand the general long-time goal of the clans.

[Krubarax]

MacabreDerek, on 25 May 2012 - 01:52 AM, said:

every one is formally trained and raised as a killer

Very wrong. Not by a long shot is every person in any clan a trueborn.
Most are freeborn and all castes but Scientist and warrior reproduce naturally and more or less (depending on clan) uncontrolled.
There are more freeborns than trueborn in the clans by a HUGE factor.

Quote

However, for it's purpose, to re-take the Inner Sphere, it's almost brilliant in it's single-minded devotion to murder and war.

Well, I can not say that you are pure wrong here. But I disagree.
A Faction that deploys with the least amount of units neccessary to win, avoids combat in urban areas and almost always offer hegira and safcon, can not be seen as "single-minded devotion to murder and war."

Add to that how IS treats their P.O.W's and compare to any bondsman.
Full out warfare is much more "single-minded devotion to murder and war."

That is MY opinion

Edited by GB Krubarax, 25 May 2012 - 02:02 AM.

[Cifu]

Stormwolf, on 25 May 2012 - 01:50 AM, said:

You are both missing the obvious here.

The IS team would obviously drop first.

This would set a maximum BV that restrains the Clan side with their mech selection.
The Clan side would never be able to field forces with higher BV then the IS.

The Clan side could easily pick any mech they want if it is a 1 star vs 3 lances setup.

But you still missing the plot.


1.: IS have a X BV force of 12 mech.
The Clans begin to bid... and they discuss which player exclude the force, to take a better bid, and so on... So we can see, even if you put a time limit to the bidding, it's actually need around a 3-5 minute to the decision. The IS players only can sit in the places, and wait (why???).

2.: You still need much less clanner, than IS player. So the IS players get to the battle instan... err... after 3-5 minutes (until the bidding is over), while a clanner even can be wait over hours, because for example he/she a newcomer, with basic mech, etc, so not a clan officer choose to put into the battle...

And again, even if you take an 2:1 scale to the IS:clan player to the battle, you still need twice as much IS player to make the clanner side biased. But most of the players are fond to the clans... so i hardly believe we even get 1:1 ratio in IS:Clan players...

[Ian]

Quote

That or you Trashborns cannot stand the fact we up and obliterated you, until we let you win at Tukayyid.

Quote

and the IS wonders why we of clan wolf are your sole hope? you IS freeborns cannot be trusted to handle your stuff, let us get to terra, and we will hold your hands as the ilClan and bring peace to you. shhh now, its all right, Clan Wolf is here.

Thats the reason right there.

[MacabreDerek]

GB Krubarax, on 25 May 2012 - 02:02 AM, said:

Very wrong. Not by a long shot is every person in any clan a trueborn.
Most are freeborn and all castes but Scientist and warrior reproduce naturally and more or less (depending on clan) uncontrolled.
There are more freeborns than trueborn in the clans by a HUGE factor.



Well, I can not say that you are pure wrong here. But I disagree.
A Faction that deploys with the least amount of units neccessary to win, avoids combat in urban areas and almost always offer hegira and safcon, can not be seen as "single-minded devotion to murder and war."

Add to that how IS treats their P.O.W's and compare to any bondsman.
Full out warfare is much more "single-minded devotion to murder and war."

That is MY opinion

Fair enough, an over-simplification. However, that still does not change the fact that the pinicle of the Clan society is vat-bred, trained at an absurdly young age to not only take human life, but to see it as sport, and then to realize that even the freeborn are furthering the effort for war.

What you're bringing as far as an honour system is dropped, several times, at the first sign of trouble, and is often only given for political manuvering. Sorry, but the clan honour system doesnt cut it, especially in the later years of the conflict. You offer to take warriors as a prize, just to put them in the meat-grinder again. The only degree of mercy shown is to treat the lower castes and civilians as another resource to fuel the machine.

Oh, and edited the statment to Trueborn rather than Everyone, should make you happy.

Edited by MacabreDerek, 25 May 2012 - 02:22 AM.

[Ivan Haddenov]

As an extremely long time player of BT from the start I too suffer the "I hate Clan Affliction" and for pretty much the reasons mentioned before:
Op-ed tech supposivly (but never actually) controlled by rigid rules of warfare.
The clanners themselves were enormously arrogant to the point of idiocy as well - something totally unbelievable given that they had operatives within the IS for potentially decades if not centuries.
The Clans leaders were supposed to be the end result of many generations of genetic breeding tempered in wars and training in the arts of strategy and tactics unlike any in the history of man.

Yet they were idiots.

The Clans suffered way too much Deus Ex Machina - they make great NPC menaces but to truely play them as they should they should be wholly Ai.

Given the technological and Military Intellegence advantage that the Clans had in 3049 and earlier, the Clan invasion should have gone something like this.
Day one - Multiple Clan WARSHIPS and CARRIERS (not just jumpships) appear over each House's capitals. Orbital defenses and aerospace fighters are swept out of the skies before anyone knows whats going on. Precise Tactical NUCLEAR strikes hit the capitals before any mention of surrender or terms are demanded. Known Mech garrisons, safe locations and fall back redoubts are also hit as hard as possible before there can be mobilisation. (Remeber that the clan spies have had time to gather this information and update it as the fleets get closer. Also the Spies have access to Clan level technology code breakers line tappers wifi etc etc to have access to IS computers and Coms. No plan unless verbal or written on paper can be assumed to be secure from Clan knowedge.)

The Clans then state their terms - Surrender of Terra and the demilitariation of the Inner sphere or face destruction
.
The Inner sphere will be in turmoil - most if not all military and Political Leadership has just been removed from play. The very nature of political and military leadership in the IS had become charismatic and held in the hands of a very few elite - strike at them and you have very little guidance to prosecute a war - and the Clans KNEW this.

Who cares if a couple of cities and military bases become radioactive glass overnight? So what if a few billion (if that) freebirths die? Some 300 year old relic mechs get destroyed? Don't make me laugh at this being considered even a tactical loss of war material. With the above type strike the War of Liberation would have been over before it had barely begun.

But that makes a lousy story and an even worst game.

No much as I HATE to suggest the following I think that the game designers will run the game something like this:
1) We are all IS players and will ONLY ever be IS players.
2) With earned C-bills and battle field salvage we will be able to upgrade our mechs to 'data core standards'.
3) as we play there will be a xp/prestige system that will allow us to research or unlock rarer IS lostetch and even some of the new stuff the Houses have worked on, as well as make bigger frames available.
4) The Clan become available as an AI opponent or even players 'becoming' Clanners for one fight as opponents. Salvage from these fights may lead to Clan tech being able to be researched by players for repair and mounting.
5) eventually Clan chassis may become researched too.

[Krubarax]

An Inners Sphere warrior (or Soldier, to keep some faces happy) would fight to his death in his machine, to avoid capture or shame (kurita) or just because he would not like to be dispossessed.
In the clans, Mechwarriors lives are rarely lost.
And we wven train with live ammo.
If a clan warrior realize he has been outmanouverd, manouvered into an inpossible situation or if his/her mech is disabled.
He or she would accept defeat, power down and offer him/herself as a bondsman.

That is honor, to me.

Quote

to treat the lower castes and civilians as another resource to fuel the machine.

This is true to any nation at war, quiaff?

[Infine]

GB Krubarax, on 25 May 2012 - 01:54 AM, said:

Do you really need a "why" to why wasting is bad?
Why do you not then go about telling me why wasting, in any situation is good?
That would be very interesting.

Because wasting makes human human. Playing videogames is a waste. A game is just a nature's way for living beings to study and sharpen their skills. The skill of fast and precise mouse clicking is not needed in the "real" life. The reason you learn it is because nature made you enjoy playing games, and game manufacturers exploit this fact. Spending time on shaprening this skill is wasteful. Skiing and cycling is wasteful, making and watching movies is wasteful, having a retro car is wasteful. There are many wasteful things in this world that are considered "enjoyable" while actually being just wasteful.

GB Krubarax, on 25 May 2012 - 01:54 AM, said:

As Already mentioned, the overall goal of the clans is to restore the star league.
If you want to debate what the star league stood for, how star league era life was, or the good and bad aspects of the star league, well that is an entirely different thread.
The Star League was NOT, however, built like Clan society.
Clan Society was created to preserve the core of the star league, untill the Clans could return and re-instate it.

But do you, clans, remember what was the Star League? Did you actually preserve star league values? Or do you just have books where it's written "star league is this and star league is that"? You are like little girls that believe that medieval is about Dysney Castles and Knights in shining armour on white horses. You are like japanese that "revive" ainu culture. Wearing a national costume and playing a national instrument does not equal being a national character. It's just poor acting. You did not preserve Star League values. Values are not guidelines written in the book. Values are what you have inside and what you stand for. You never had them in the first place. At best you had SLDF values, but you've changed and lost even those. You annihilated a whole clan that tried to preserve Star League values.

GB Krubarax, on 25 May 2012 - 01:54 AM, said:

The SLDF was reduced, durign the exodus, by various very hard test and evaluations.
Only the best were allowed to remain on active duty. I fail to see how that fact alone is any different from any army.

And you don't even see why you are doomed to fail in your own words.
You write yourself that only the best are allowed toremain on duty. This is glorifying the duty. This is making the duty into what it is not supposed to be. This is making a tool into a purpose. There are your "Starleague Values". you are not even able to comprehend them, let alone preserve.

[Krubarax]

Firt off.
I said wasting resources.
Second - playing a video game might be wasteful - but were we not debating Clan vs Inner Sphere?
I fail to see how what I do IRL has anything to do with it.
The clans abhore wasting resources. You may bicycle at your liesure.

If you are going to reduce your fighting force, which is supposedly used to keep the peace, obviously you want the best people to do it.
Thats why there are no 15 year or 80 year old old firefighters. They have to be the right person for the job.

If you have the wrogn person for the job, people will get killed.
And that is a waste.

[MacabreDerek]

GB Krubarax, on 25 May 2012 - 02:19 AM, said:

An Inners Sphere warrior (or Soldier, to keep some faces happy) would fight to his death in his machine, to avoid capture or shame (kurita) or just because he would not like to be dispossessed.
In the clans, Mechwarriors lives are rarely lost.
And we wven train with live ammo.
If a clan warrior realize he has been outmanouverd, manouvered into an inpossible situation or if his/her mech is disabled.
He or she would accept defeat, power down and offer him/herself as a bondsman.

That is honor, to me.

This is true to any nation at war, quiaff?

Just as a point, I know you're having fun posting in a sudo-RP fassion, but unless posting with others who follow that same mentality (Being from the FF Forums I've done it alot myself ) you're really just putting off other people and driving a further wedge in the player base.

In the Clans, Mechwarriors treat it like a burden of shame to have lived long, and find old-age revolting, each one living with a death-wish.

As far as the aftermath of a Warrior's capture, that is dependent on the circumstance. Drop on the wrong planet and being captured/bonded means alot of questions being asked of you and equal amount of pieces of you on the floor for each one.

[Max Liao]

FoxiestFox, on 24 May 2012 - 10:35 PM, said:

I couldn't care less about the lore behind the Clans, how OP their tech is and all the riff raff. I just love the Clans for what they stand for, honourable combat and such, regardless it it's one sided.

If that translated to the game, I would be okay with it.

BID to fight my unit.
NO physical attacks.
1 on 1 combat (of course, until we focus fire you).

Then MAYBE I would tolerate the clans and clan players. But, as most people have said, the tech ruined the game (for me) and the subsequent arms race, the inability to role-play as a clan (which is their only weakness), and the eventual addition of the atrocious Level 3 (Maximum Tech anyone?) BS really soured B-Tech to me. To this day I'm still a 3025 purist - and while I did play some clan vs IS games in the 90s, and played in a couple 3050+ era tournaments in the late 90s & early 2000s, I only play 3025 era games.

I do not enjoy the Alpha Strike concept. 'Mech were never meant to use all of their weapons in one round. Even the Tech Readouts and novels discuss the rotating or alternating fire of many of them.

I do not enjoy 50% of heavies able to jump. Jumping was the realm of the Scout; and while I understand that Lyrans like scouting with 80-ton 'Mechs, for most units this isn't feasible.

I do not enjoy the 'faster pace' game - (read: he who hits first wins). I enjoy a 4-6 hour lance on lance or company on company combined arms fight. Hit an run ... lumber through the terrain ... run out of ammo ... etc.

I know BattleTech had to grow to bring in a new audience and to keep the game fresh. And, to be honest, I like the novelization of the Clan invasion - I just hate them (and most 3050+ tech) on the tabletop. I'll play with Level 2 Rules, I keep to Level 1 (3025 era) tech.

While the are just my opinions, and I'm sure I'm in the Minority, I have felt strongly about this since ... 1990/91?

[Cifu]

Ivan Haddenov, on 25 May 2012 - 02:17 AM, said:

...
1) We are all IS players and will ONLY ever be IS players....

I can live with that, but actually i don't really believe it's can be done to the Clan-fans. They are too much, and too loud. Cannot be ignored such a large fanbase.

That's why i love the "2009" Mechwarrior 3025 idea... It's pure love...

[William Petersen]

Cifu, on 25 May 2012 - 02:32 AM, said:

I can live with that, but actually i don't really believe it's can be done to the Clan-fans. They are too much, and too loud. Cannot be ignored such a large fanbase.

That's why i love the "2009" Mechwarrior 3025 idea... It's pure love...

Wasn't it 3015? =P

[Cifu]

William Petersen, on 25 May 2012 - 02:35 AM, said:

Wasn't it 3015? =P

Yupp, i was lost in time...

[Sylow]

William Petersen, on 25 May 2012 - 02:35 AM, said:

Wasn't it 3015? =P

Yea. I was absolutely happy about that. It was too good to be true, though.

Sparks Murphey, on 24 May 2012 - 11:49 PM, said:

It should also be noted that I don't generally have a problem with Clan players, excepting for the fact that the sorts of people who buy into the Clans being a great idea are frequently power-trippers who exult in being "special" because of a personal choice to label themselves as affiliated with a fictional society that would label them scum if it actually existed. There are, of course, plenty of good Clan players out there, but the "Clan" label throws a warning every time.

/sign

Sparks Murphey, on 25 May 2012 - 12:12 AM, said:

If you wanna RP, there's a fan fiction forum here. Go there are spout insults at the Inner Sphere. Heck, I'll join you. But leave the IC bile and rage out of an OOC thread about why real world people dislike the Clans.

/sign even more

I'm into roleplaying since ages. I've played in roleplay-enforced MUDs and enjoyed it. But everything in it's place, and puking around RP-based insults in a non-RP environment is one of the biggest key factors why some clan players are rightfully disliked. This results in a bad reputation for all clan players, even those who know how to behave, thus i'd advise to stop this behaviour.

Next to that, my main dislike stems from what the introduction of the clans did to the TT and which players they attracted. Basically the equation was: Clan = Munchkin, at some time at BT conventions you could really determine by their age, which faction they were playing. Age 14 or below was a guaranteed clan player while 20 or above was sure to be IS, with the area in between being a bit more mixed up, but still the younger the player, the more likely he was to play clans.

The dislike of the clan playstyle mostly was founded on how clans actually played on the field. Before the clans were introduced, BT was a game of position, flanking and generally outmaneuvring the opponent, already on a one on one and even more when several mechs were fielded on either side. Clan fights, per definition, were always one on one. In the unlikely case that the clan players did actually read the lore and followed it, instead of just seeing that clans have the better gear and thus choosing them, even fights with several machines on either side just split up into seperate duels without any connection to each other.

To make matters even worse, people at BT conventions were easily able to distinguish between a duel on IS or clan side even from quite some distance, even without being able to recognize the mechs used, but only seeing their positions on the field. If it was an IS fight, the mechs were moving around, clan fights regularily used the "highly sophisticated" tactics of both mechs standing still and hoping to be the first one to deliver the deciding headshot. Some people developed the bias that young players would simply be unable to understand tactics, but after just a few testruns i had to find out that the no-brain-used "tactics" of stand and deliver indeed was favourable to any more dynamic fighting style on most of the commonly used clan mechs.

Since the IS equipment (despite also having some issues, e.g. ACs vs. any energy based weaponry) encouraged different fighting styles, the introduction of the clans was a clear and painful downgrade of the TT game. It also was observed that IS players regularily were able to just grab a clan machine and compete well with clan players. (Although i found it too easy and thus boring. ) On the other hand, when a clan player attempted to participate in an IS match, he usually was outmaneuvered and torn to pieces in no time.

And this is why i personally disliked the clans the most: clan tech bred bad players. The same players would have learned how to play well with IS gear, but clan equipment prevented them from ever learning a more versatile fighting style.

Edited by Sylow, 25 May 2012 - 02:50 AM.

[Cruxshadow]

Humans have always feared and hated that which is different and, superior. The Clans are both. They are very Nietzchean in their society, and philosophy, and attitude.