53 replies to this topic

[Mahws]

ECM has issues of it's own, but without fixing SSRM first there's no way to properly balance ECM. ECMs value is directly tied into how threatening SSRM are, none of its other functions have nearly the same impact on the game.

[StalaggtIKE]

Not a bad suggestion. I do feel that ECM is still a problem and should be addressed. However, that's for another thread.

[Chou Senwan]

My solution:

When you pull the trigger on a streak SRM, if the server authenticates that you're within 270 meters and that your cursor is on the target, the missiles fly and turn unerringly to hit it. Basically it determines at the instant you fire whether you're aiming in the right place. If you are, you get a target lock and they all hit. If you aren't, you hear a bzzt, and they don't fire.

[Mahws]

That would certainly be a move in the right direction, but it would still leave a few problems with balance when it comes to SSRM6. If you're using it against a heavier (read:slower) mech then it wouldn't do anything to lower its effectiveness, if you were using it against a light mech then all you'd need is a moment of accuracy to destroy them with a 3xSSRM6 salvo. Could definitely be an option, but it'd still have a lot of the same issues.

[MasterBLB]

Streaks WERE overpowered before whey they always hit central torso and shake cockpit like hell.
Since have been made to spread damage to LT/CT/RT and sometimes to limbs too,and their shake effect has been reduced they are fine.

[Mahws]

So why no Jenners? Why nothing but Commando 2D and Raven 3L?

It's a weapon that does a two SSRM Raven does the equivalent of two AC5 hits worth of damage to the LT/CT/RT of an enemy mech (they only ever hit legs at extreme range), every 3.5 seconds that never misses and doesn't require you to even be facing the enemy, let alone aiming at them.

Streak Cats may no longer own the game, but Streaks are by no means balanced by the fact that they only dominate light mechs now.

[MasterBLB]

Like you don't know why there are almost only 3Ls and 2Ds.
It's because of ****** up ECM implementation which causes mechs equipping it disables an opponent's streaks.Without it you'd see a wide variety of light mechs,as each one would be more or less equally potent and dangerous.

[Buff Plankchest]

White Bear 84, on 13 January 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

Bring back re-arm costs. There needs to be a downside to using streaks. Lasers and PPC have heat to contend, Gauss has fragility and ammo weight, LBX is just terrible, LRM's have ECM and ams, streaks have.....

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Agree with White Bear here — the game was built around an economy that was upended just a patch or two ago. From my perspective, re-arm costs were another balancing point to much of the tech in the game; Artemis, ferro-fibrous and streak ammo are now among the items a pilot can carelessly blow through.

[Sears]

I like the possible nerf that Paul wrote in the weapon balance thread about streaks. That they could lock on to CT, arms and legs randomly spreading out the damage. Would still be effective against lights albeit with more salvos needed. Plus it makes it more of a decision to take srms which can be aimed manually. So it would become a choice between guaranteed hit but damage spread or chance of a miss but more focused damage.

[Mahws]

They'd have to completely redo SRM spread to make it more accurate than SSRM, even if they did do that. Even then how would that help lights? 3xSSRM6 spread out over the whole mech is still going to demolish anything smaller than a heavy in a few salvos.

Buff Plankchest, on 16 January 2013 - 02:18 AM, said:

Agree with White Bear here — the game was built around an economy that was upended just a patch or two ago. From my perspective, re-arm costs were another balancing point to much of the tech in the game; Artemis, ferro-fibrous and streak ammo are now among the items a pilot can carelessly blow through.

Making something more expensive as a balance to it being flat out better in game is the very definition of Pay to Win. People willing to put down money will be able to afford to run expensive SSRM builds that are better than what other players can field. If it only makes them unnatractive to a portion of the player base then it's not balanced, it's just handing and advantage to a paying elite.

MasterBLB, on 16 January 2013 - 01:28 AM, said:

Like you don't know why there are almost only 3Ls and 2Ds.
It's because of ****** up ECM implementation which causes mechs equipping it disables an opponent's streaks.Without it you'd see a wide variety of light mechs,as each one would be more or less equally potent and dangerous.

If by wide variety of light mechs you mean any variety with two missile hardpoints? How exactly would getting rid of ECM prevent a Jenner F getting demolished by any other light packing SSRM? How would that help the Spider or the Cicada? If getting rid of ECM made SSRM balanced then we'd be seeing non-ECM packing lights in game already.

Edited by Mahws, 16 January 2013 - 03:09 AM.

[Nonsense]

Mahws, on 15 January 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

ECM has issues of it's own, but without fixing SSRM first there's no way to properly balance ECM. ECMs value is directly tied into how threatening SSRM are, none of its other functions have nearly the same impact on the game.

Exactly. I'm a refugee of the ridiculousness of the general forums. Glad to see some people who can think critically having actual discussions about actual problems.

I totally agree with the premise of the thread. I trust the devs to find their own solution as long as they agree SSRM effectiveness is the problem. I tend to agree ease of lock is a good chunk of it. Light vs. light combat could not be so high damage at high speed if not for SSRMs... If SSRMs were harder to use, high speed combat would actually take skill.

Problem is, the netcode needs to be fixed along with this, since it's extremely difficult to kill high speed targets with lasers, let alone autocannons or normal SRMs. Yeah, you can fire ahead to compensate for lag, but it's still ridiculous.

[Karl Split]

SSRM turn rate was buffed in early beta, before that they couldnt hit lights for squat. Sadly they were over buffed, i think when tracking a light 1/2 the missiles should messup and miss if the target is going at a high transversal.

[Gif]

I do not care what is done, but Streaks on ECM Mechs is broken, and needs fixing some how. So /signed.

Note: You know Streaks are Broken on ECM Mechs how? When you have an Atlas-D-DC sporting 3 SSRMs - why would anyone in their right mind want to do that on a slow *** moving 100ton mech? ohh wait ya, cause they are broken.

[Green Mamba]

This is true.....I don't run Streaks on my 3L and I die all the time.Without Streaks you see although there is an advantage with ECM they can still be killed.

Proof is Streakcats pre ECM and how cheese they were..It is the streaks that need adjustment

[SGT Unther]

Here is my 2 cents,

IIRC in the lore that Streaks are IR guided so make it so that you have to maintain the lock. If you loose that lock make streaks loose their guidance just like LRMs, so they are no longer a fire and forget weapon. So streaks can't magically track a target out view and hit.

[Bobzilla]

Take out the always hit, and just play with the speed that they travel and their turning speed so altho it will take skill they can be dodged.
Or allow them super turning and terran awareness with always hit, but slower 100kph or less, and after it travels 270m it explodes so it can be dodged or out run. Would help bring back AMS that i don't see anymore.
I'm not a fan of the min range idea.

[Kargarok]

I do like the intent of the OP but I'm not sure that is truly the way to go. Just ask my Lance mates and you'll know that I truly have a throurough hatred for these no talent op weapons. However, properly implemented I think they have a place in the game.

The roles I see for streaks are:

Light Hunting - Net code aside, as the fixes are coming, being able to hit a small fast light isn't the easiest. So streaks should give you an edge if this is the role you want to persure. It should NOT however give you the 'I Win' button that it currently is.

Noob/High Ping Alternatives - We need new players to continue to come into the game and I, for one, would like to see our Euro and Asian (and elsewhere ) friends to continue to be able to play. I see the Streaks being an alternative for folks with bad aim whther its from a lack of experience or a high ping. Again Streaks should not give folks the ability to dominate over any other players, regardless of their weight class.

So that said, I don't think minimum range on streaks is a good idea. They are short range missiles they should be viable in all short ranges. However, they fire like LRMs. So they should do dame liks an LRM. Ah but here's the rub. Even Slow mechs can often find cover from a LRM boat so not all LRMs will hit. SSRMs almost never miss because they are often on the faster mechs or fired so there is no chance to get behind cover to avoid them. So in order to balance them out mayhaps we should reduce their damage to below what LRMs do. I think Streaks should do 1.0 dmg per missile. At least this should be a start point for testing. 1.1 or 1.2 might be acceptable as well. Especially when the Streaks start locking onto arms and legs instead of ALWAYS hitting the torso, like the devs have promised would eventually happen. This way when Clan tech eventually comes into the game, you will almost always get a guaranteed 2 or 4 or 6 dmg per missle slot but you will not be overpowered.

[ParasiteX]

Best solution is a simple one. Just lower the streaks turn angle. Thus, requiring pilots to actually think, before shooting.
No need for any minimum range or other unnecessary deviations from TT.

High speed, short range missiles, should have a very limited turning angle. Makes no sense that you can fire em from pretty much any angle.

But the netcode should be fixed first. As right now, streaks are the only reliable weapon for hunting lights with high lag.

But once netcode is properly tweaked. Then they can get around to adjusting streaks, and hopefully remove Guardian ECMs non-canon ability to counter streaks and LRMs.
And with a proper netcode. Other weapons, and even regular SRMs. Will be viable weapons for hunting lights.

[Flapdrol]

I dont care how streaks are nerfed, as long as they are. It's pretty much compulsory to run both streaks and ecm in light vs light otherwise you'll always lose to those that do.

Streaks vs the laser weapons on light v light is no contest, streaks have about the same dps/ton, much better damage/heat, always hit so no wasted dps or heat, also 100 ammo per ton, that's 250 damage to torso's right there.

besides, in light v light the 3L will have lasers + streaks and be heat limited, the other light only has lasers and is also heat limited. Even if he could hit everything he'd be at a disadvantage, it's not like a few tons of extra heatsinks do much compared to the 10 in engine 2.0 sinks.

[moneyBURNER]

As others have said, streaks should be fixed by:

- limiting their currently extreme maneuverability to allow a reasonable possibility of evasion
- spreading out the damage a bit more and/or reducing target lock retention

That should be enough to balance them with direct-fire weapons, especially when combined with better netcode.