80 replies to this topic

[Goldhawk]

perfectblue, on 25 May 2012 - 04:13 AM, said:

Once the clans are introduced, how will they balance the game? Clan tech is vastly superior, will some of the current mechs become obsolete?

Only the Urbanmech.
Eat it Trashcan lovers!

[Major Bill Curtis]

Aelos03, on 25 May 2012 - 05:14 AM, said:

thats bad that will mean clan mechs are overpowered and using that system to balance game is nonsense

You don't know your Clan 'mechs. They are better by design and by intent; they have much better technology and are more flexible. Make them equal to IS 'mechs and you may as well not include them.

The point of the Clans is that they're better. Balance it just like it's balanced in TT: superior numbers; BV; melee (which we don't have, but Clanners should not have certain modules available, like "charging"); jump jets (Clanners tend to despise these, although they're not totally excluded).

Clan 'mechs have their largest advantages in open ground, so terrain can also be used to balance combats.

Further, let us not underestimate the power of fanboy soloists to take up the Clan cause, since the 'mechs are better. There was an utterly dumb response someone made earlier along the lines of "if you don't like the Clans, don't play them."

Blink.

That's the guy who will be jumping into a Clan omni as soon as it's available.

Finally, let's not assume that the Clans have the same modules available: have a look at the leadership modules particularly . . . make it "dishonorable" (i.e. unavailable) for Clanners to call in air strikes or artillery barrages and you change the balance of a combat considerably, we might imagine (none of us having played the game).

One post in ten is constructive in any way on topics like this. Let's give the developers a little credit here.

Edited by Major Bill Curtis, 25 May 2012 - 05:33 AM.

[C0VVB3LL]

Zellbringen and BV should do the trick.

Edited by C0VVB3LL, 25 May 2012 - 05:32 AM.

[Kudzu]

Major Bill Curtis, on 25 May 2012 - 05:29 AM, said:

Finally, let's not assume that the Clans have the same modules available: have a look at the leadership modules particularly . . . make it "dishonorable" (i.e. unavailable) for Clanners to call in air strikes or artillery barrages and you change the balance of a combat considerably, we might imagine (none of us having played the game).

This is actually one of the better ideas I've seen for balancing the clans.

Edited by Kudzu, 25 May 2012 - 05:33 AM.

[Star Captain Obvious Kerensky]

Here are the reasonable possibilities that come to mind:

1- Players don't actually get to play for the clan faction. Players can buy clan tech in the mechbay, but cannot go pure clan.
Pro: This way everyone is on the same footing. You want clan tech? earn in.
Con: If you want to win, you're going to need to put clan tech on your mech. Opens the door to "pay-to-win" by spending dollars for c-bills to buy clan tech.

2- Clan faction is something that any player can join. Game limits clan team size in some fashion. Either by BV or maximum number of players on the clan side in-game.
Pro: Lets players play through the clan invasion. Thats pretty awesome.
Con: Players will undoubtly flock to the clan faction in droves. BV systems have always been hard to balance, MWO probably won't get it right.

3- Clan faction can only be joined by players who have a character that has earned X amount of XP.
Pro: Only veteran players can join clain, keeping with lore. Prevents flood of clan players.
Con: Making clan veteran players only will just encourage more people to grind to a vet. pilot. Playing as IS will be the "newbie" faction; e.g. clan players don't have to deal with training in new players.

4a- Playing as clan is not tied to your pilot in any way. Instead if a player opts to join a match as the clan faction, the game assigns the mech to you. Cbills are still earned, but you don't get to take the clan mech home with you.
Pros: Players cannot flood clan faction. Game will not become an arms race to get to clan tech ASAP.
Con: You don't get to customize your mech, or keep a stable of clan tech handy.

4b - As 4a, except players can pick and customize their mech.
Pro: Players get to pick thier ride.
Con: Harder to balance clan vs. IS matches as players will prefer to join clan to use their favorite ride. e.g. Everyone picks Madcat, non takes the Uller.

Personally, I think option #4 is the best.

Edited by eldragon, 25 May 2012 - 05:45 AM.

[Cifu]

Major Bill Curtis, on 25 May 2012 - 05:29 AM, said:

Clan 'mechs have their largest advantages in open ground, so terrain can also be used to balance combats.

Not all the time. The Clan LRM for example won't have minimum range, and even if they lost the larger range advantages, they still have smaller and lighter weapons and equipment's.

I personally don't really see how can the clanners put into the game, without to ruin the game experience.

-If they only "balanced" by the BV, then the Clanner players has a disadvantage to get into the battle (because in a battle seems like 12 IS vs. 4-7 clanner).
-If the implement the bidding system, then every battle started a time costly bidding, and the bidding are hard to become fair.
-If the try to take leash to the clanner players (like Zelbringen), many player won't understand why it's happen, and don't even care about.
-If the clans simply "overrun" the IS, without mercy (ie.: won't put any kind of hard restriction), then the IS players only eat dirt in every battle.

[Ivory]

I've been playing World Of Tanks for a little over a year balance there is quite a critical issue. They solved it fairly good (imo) by letting tanks of different classes have a tier number according to how effective they are regardless of tonnage, gun diameter, horsepower, armour etc.

The matchmaking system makes sure that you play against roughly the same tier as your opponents. Transfering this mechanic to MWO would work out like a clan 75t heavy/assault would face off against an innersphere 90 or 100t to be on roughly even terms. This would very much reflect the clan system of bidding the least number of stars for defeating the enemy quiaff?

Edited by Ivory, 25 May 2012 - 06:12 AM.

[Adridos]

Ivory, on 25 May 2012 - 06:11 AM, said:

I've been playing World Of Tanks for a little over a year balance there is quite a critical issue. They solved it fairly good (imo) by letting tanks of different classes have a tier number according to how effective they are regardless of tonnage, gun diameter, horsepower, armour etc.

The system from WoT wouldn't work here.

[Aegis Kleais]

William Petersen, on 25 May 2012 - 04:59 AM, said:

Sure, but you can't make the assumption that the IS will have the better team work, and why is it "fair" to place the burden on them of having to pull together or lose easily anyway?

All things equal (which is the point of matchmaking, to match up players of similar skill levels for balanced, challenging, fun games), 12 Clan Mechs with Clan Tech will annihilate 12 IS Mechs with IS Tech (even LosTech, though not by as large a margin). There won't even be a contest. I'd say even 2 stars (10 Clan Mechs) versus a company is still heavily weighted in the Clans' favor. But by the same token, one star versus a company is asking for an ***-whooping for the Clansmen.

Unless they add a Battle Value type system to match making so Clanners are fighting at a numerical and tonnage disadvantage, then you can expect them to win against mostly-Tech 1 IS Mechs quite easily.

Sorry, but "all things equal" is a pipedream. War isn't fair. There is no quantifiable metric that can be used to properly ensure that both teams have an even playfield. The only thing you can work towards is to stop cheats/hacks and to continually balance the game's statistics so that it is fine-tuned. People who are so dearly ingrained with this desire for complete fairness in games of war are like those who strive for perfection. It's a goal that simply cannot be attained. (Though the strive is admirable)

[Kael Tropheus]

Do remember, clans are not team players. They are truly an army of individual heroes. Each warrior is trying to out do each other. In an honor based econimic system, riding a DIre Wolf or a Mad Dog against equal or lighter mechs is not going to gain one near as much honor as say taking out an Atlas with a Ice Ferret. If no honor was given for clan mechs working together against enemy mechs it would enforce the idea of an army of heroes. Not playing according to the code and purposely seeking out the best opponents like this would mean clan players would never be able to afford upgrades or new chassis. Sure you are a badass in your Dire Wolf but it is the exact same Direwolf you have been driving since day one since you dont play according to the way clans operate. Those 80 Jenners you killed gave you zero honor, good luck affording repairs from the beating that lance of Atlases gave you.

Perhaps for the clan pilots, they could see colored icons or something denoting whether an enemy mech has been engaged by another clanner. Intentionally jumping in would lose the clan pilot honor.

[Philips Faust]

Balancing will be tricky, cause no matter what the clans WILL have an advantage over the Inner Sphere (Omni) Many idea's come to mind when one thinks of balance, but the trick is to make it somewhat fair and keep a decent pace close to the lore.

For one thing a BV/C-bill bid system would do it (either way it measures how powerful your mech is by worth in either estimated battle power or how much money you threw at it)

Another way is Cost (yes yes buying power and all that) But even in TT clan tech was BLOODY expensive. Buying enough clan tech weapons could equate to a couple stock mechs in value, and repairing them was just as expensive (you wanna wear that gold armor into combat? Fine, just be warned it's gonna cost yah)

Also as said earlier the In-game potential tactics. Yes you can't make players follow the codes of clan combat, but you CAN control whats available to them. Back when I was playing TT battletech if you were playing clan you couldn't mix tech unless you were the special flower of certain clans (I think 6 units of the clans, not to sure) So that means if your playing clan, no fancy IS toys like C3 or melee. And as said earlier clans didn't use artillery (of any kind) so don't let them use it either. As for balancing mix tech on the IS side of the fence that's a bit trickier.

As also said earlier, for clanners change how the characters gain Xp and how their tree's work. It's not a perfect way to do it, but it works for small balance AND a lore point (clanners and IS had totaly different tactics and training, why the hell would the players gain and spend XP the same way?

most has been said earlier, but I felt it could all be summed into a single post.

Balance in a combat game, with so many variables to tweek with as Mechwarrior is damn near impossible. The trick isn't to smooth out the bumpy road so that way everyones riding the same, the trick is to take out some of the potholes here and there so that way the ride is a little bumpy for both sides, but you had fun on the trip.

[Foxfire]

Aelos03, on 25 May 2012 - 05:14 AM, said:

thats bad that will mean clan mechs are overpowered and using that system to balance game is nonsense

Clan Tech and Clan mechs were far superior to the IS ones at the time.

Also keep in mind that Clan honor tended to mean that the Clans would bid down the number of units that would participate in a fight.

Not to mention that the IS wouldnt have an indefinate lack of Clan tech to outfit their units.

The big thing that will ultimately matter is *how* they introduce clans as a playable faction. If they allow them to be playable at the onset of the invasion.. the clan will destroy because that is what they did. The tech gap was just too great at the start. This is why melee was important for the IS's survival since that was the one true advantage that they held over the clanners.

If, on the other hand, they wait until a little bit into the invasion for it to be reasonable for Clan tech to start showing up on the market(at very high c-bill values), then things will be much.. smoother with the transition.

[Gremlich Johns]

Okay, how many clan balance threads does this make now?

And the issue is not that Clan mechs are overpowered, it is that IS mechs are UNDERPOWERED.

Perspectives people!

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 25 May 2012 - 12:13 PM.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Gremlich Johns, on 25 May 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

Okay, how many clan balance threads does this make now?

And the issue is not that Clan mechs are overpowered, it is that IS mechs are UNDERPOWERED.

Perspectives people!

<looks at timeline of Battletech release history>
mmmmmm, I'm seeing that the IS was out first, making it the baseline for the rest of the game. So compared to (at the time) the 'new' material; the Clans, the clans are overpowered.

perspectives indeed.

also, if everyone loves playing clan so much, and is so infatuated with the lore, why is everyone panicked about nerfs?
c'mon, everyone here keeps talking about player skill...and tactics...oh...yeah it's actually all about possessing some of the most overpowered items in the game.

Kael Tropheus, on 25 May 2012 - 06:34 AM, said:

Do remember, clans are not team players. They are truly an army of individual heroes. Each warrior is trying to out do each other. In an honor based econimic system, riding a DIre Wolf or a Mad Dog against equal or lighter mechs is not going to gain one near as much honor as say taking out an Atlas with a Ice Ferret. If no honor was given for clan mechs working together against enemy mechs it would enforce the idea of an army of heroes. Not playing according to the code and purposely seeking out the best opponents like this would mean clan players would never be able to afford upgrades or new chassis. Sure you are a badass in your Dire Wolf but it is the exact same Direwolf you have been driving since day one since you dont play according to the way clans operate. Those 80 Jenners you killed gave you zero honor, good luck affording repairs from the beating that lance of Atlases gave you.

Perhaps for the clan pilots, they could see colored icons or something denoting whether an enemy mech has been engaged by another clanner. Intentionally jumping in would lose the clan pilot honor.

you seem to have a rosy, lore-tinted set of glasses when describing a player-base, don't you? I will be playing IS, and not for one second will I expect any clan player to actually play like the lore. If clan players played like the lore dictated, they would get their ***** handed to them, powerful tech or not. I expect my opponents to work as a coordinated team like any other video game team out there, castigating the lore for the sake of winning every match and becoming the best team.

[Jager Wolf]

Bring on the clans and their technology. I look forward to the challenge and the teamwork that will be required to put them back on their heels. Easy fights are no fun, being the underdog and winning makes it all the better even if you need to take a few beatings to learn their weaknesses.

Now if I could only figger out where I parked my Marauder.

Edited by Jager Wolf, 25 May 2012 - 01:58 PM.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Jager Wolf, on 25 May 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

Bring on the clans and their technology. I look forward to the challenge and the teamwork that will be required to put them back on their heels. Easy fights are no fun, being the underdog and winning makes it all the better even if you need to take a few beatings to learn their weaknesses.

Now if I could only figger out where I parked my Marauder.

nobody's asking for an easy fight; hell all I want is for clan tech upgrades to make sense within each weapons/mechs role

[Stormwolf]

Well, Clan missions should elite missions (like the STF missions in STO).
It would be difficult, but the rewards would be worth it (Clan salvage + bonus XP + high C-Bill reward).

Clans should be able to compete against each other (trials), special trials like the bloodname trials and trials of position should reap rewards for the Clan playerrs (bloodname would mean potential advancement to Star Colonel rank).

[Belrick]

Kudzu, on 25 May 2012 - 05:33 AM, said:

This is actually one of the better ideas I've seen for balancing the clans.

Yeah, Major Bill Curtis is spot on there. Limit some of their access would be quite useful.

Also, think of it in terms of costs, not just BV costs, but supplies and such. One of the clan's biggest issues (and why a lot of them lost at Tukk) was logistics. Long term fights and constant replacement of gear isn't one of their strong points. Sure ER clan laser is better, but how many of them will be on the market? How much will they cost? I think a lot of the balancing can happen out of the actual matches. Then throw in in-match balance like abilities and numbers and we have some interesting fights.

[Kael Tropheus]

You are correct if implemented as if they aree a standard faction, then yes, the clans will form efficient teams and with their tech will whip everyones ***. Immplement them on an honor based system where they use honor to purchase new equipment then not only will they fight as individuals but it will also cut down on the number of players as the vast majority of munchkin players who want the biggest and best wont like not being able to get massive points with their heavy or assault while medium and light mechs have to use real skiill to one on one take down bigger mechs but will reap actual benefits.

[Thorolf Kylesson]

Adapt your tactics.