80 replies to this topic

[NightFallsOnU]

Fomorian, on 25 May 2012 - 04:52 AM, said:

I still say bring them on I look forward to fighting against them and collecting the salvage!

yeah i want some good clan salvage too

[Aero Slasher]

Clan tech is already balanced. everyone i seen seems to forget higher heat levels and longer recycle times! On a simular topic does anyone know if Losttech will be availible from the get go? or will it come out when the battle of Tukayyid?

[Logan Pryde]

I've always thought that running a Binary (10) vs a Company (12) would be a fair way to balance it. That could result in a 200 ton advantage to make up for the tech difference. Ultimately though, I think that PGI will develop some kind of Battle Value system to balance the games out.

[Uncle Totty]

Logan Pryde, on 25 May 2012 - 08:01 PM, said:

I've always thought that running a Binary (10) vs a Company (12) would be a fair way to balance it.

But still some weapon balance would be needed. Like giving Clan LRMs a min. rang. Making IS ERLLaser do less heat while making the Clan LPLaser do more. Making the Clan ER PPC do less damage and so on...

Edited by Nathan K, 26 May 2012 - 10:49 AM.

[GrizzlyViking]

perfectblue, on 25 May 2012 - 04:13 AM, said:

Once the clans are introduced, how will they balance the game? Clan tech is vastly superior, will some of the current mechs become obsolete?

In considering this topic based on what we know so far I expect that all players will have access to all technology. The reason being is that the Devs have already said as much regarding the IS houses and Mech production. The Dev post I read stated that everyone would have access to all technology, but that the cost for some Mechs may be less for those in a faction that historically has certain production capability. I expect in order to maintain balance in the game that they will not restrict any technology by affiliations. Making such distinctions in a PvP game always results in massive problems regarding balance and it creates infinite obsessive arguments in the community. Technology is the area that I expect, as in past PC versions of MechWarrior, will continue to be equally accessible to all players of the game.

[Crimson Stigma]

Maybe they could balance things out by making clan tech cost signifantly more than IS tech. That way, not everyone would be able to afford the tech and it wouldnt completely blow out the IS mechs in the game and shove them in a dark corner.

[Aleksandr Wolf]

Another thing to remember in this conversation is that this is a continuous world. The IS could actually pull together and beat the clans out of the IS before the timeline we all know. Given that clanners would consider it a dishonor to go up against inferior IS forces in equal numbers I also agree that the binary vs. 3 lances idea would be a good one (although a batchall would still be an excellent idea quiaff?). As far as canon and balancing issues, in all honesty good looks devs because you know you cannot make everyone happy.

[Kartr]

Xendojo, on 25 May 2012 - 04:32 AM, said:

Where did this come from? Because i remember clan energy weapons also created more heat. And IS can't have ER Large Laser yet, its 3049 and ER tech has not been reverse engineered.

Sarna.net is your friend. The ER Large Laser and the ER PPC were both rediscovered in 3037, by 3049 it's been 12 years and they shouldn't be to uncommon.

Aero Slasher, on 25 May 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

Clan tech is already balanced. everyone i seen seems to forget higher heat levels and longer recycle times! On a simular topic does anyone know if Losttech will be availible from the get go? or will it come out when the battle of Tukayyid?

Here is a list of things that will be in game from start, including a good deal of lost tech.

Personally I think the simplest thing to do would be go 10v12 and enforce the single targets part of Zellbrigen. If you shoot someone on the IS team then your allies targeting computers refuse to fire on them.

Also contrary to popular belief the Devs CAN enforce as much of Zellbrigen as they want, as strictly as they want in order to even out the fight so that IS forces don't just get their butts whoooped. A fairly strict enforcement of Zell, even in the face of IS "treachery," wouldn't be to unlikely in "real" terms, since Clan warriors have it ingrained from birth and so aren't likely to deviate from it. That whole conditioning thing.

[Morgan Kerensky]

Kartr, on 01 June 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

Sarna.net is your friend. The ER Large Laser and the ER PPC were both rediscovered in 3037, by 3049 it's been 12 years and they shouldn't be to uncommon.

Here is a list of things that will be in game from start, including a good deal of lost tech.

Personally I think the simplest thing to do would be go 10v12 and enforce the single targets part of Zellbrigen. If you shoot someone on the IS team then your allies targeting computers refuse to fire on them.

Also contrary to popular belief the Devs CAN enforce as much of Zellbrigen as they want, as strictly as they want in order to even out the fight so that IS forces don't just get their butts whoooped. A fairly strict enforcement of Zell, even in the face of IS "treachery," wouldn't be to unlikely in "real" terms, since Clan warriors have it ingrained from birth and so aren't likely to deviate from it. That whole conditioning thing.

The targeting idea is possible, however I have an alternative solution.

When playing any shooter that has XP and money income from your statistics in a single battle, there is friendly fire.

When you shoot a friendly, you lose out on score you have gained from shooting enemies thus far.

I propose a nerfed variant of this, where the penalties for shooting an enemy already engaged by a team mate are similiar to the friendly fire values, but are far from as lucretive as firing on a fresh, unengaged enemy mech. This encourages clan players to fire on fresh targets because most importantly, they wont be getting xp to level up their mech/unlock modules, etc... and let's face it. Everyone wants to have the best weapons, so getting there sooner is important.

[Furniture]

It's simple as hell. All you do is change the numbers of players allowed on each team. For IS vs IS, it will probably be equal numbers of mechs. For Clan vs Clan, also equal. For IS vs Clan, make it 16 IS vs 10 Clan, or something like that, and the balance problem is solved. Just like it is on tabletop.

[Morgan Kerensky]

Yes, there is the whole star/binary etc vs X# of innersphere mechs...

but where some of the debate is coming in, is the whole lore side of clan tactics. These threads keep popping up, because no one can come to a consensus or agreement.

(that and people don't use the search function as often as they should )

[LordDeathStrike]

since normal IS games are 12 vs 12, 24 mechs, lets carry that to clan vs IS, 8 vs 16. since clan tech is 2x as good as IS 3049 tech, we get 2x the numbers. and we hope the people on our IS team know how to use cover so they dont get headshot by er clan ppcs at longer then lrm max ranges.

[MarshmallowRampage]

Cruxshadow, on 25 May 2012 - 04:44 AM, said:

Until the dev team says that Clans are going to be introduced or if they are introduced how they effect the game. Everyone who is whining about Clan mechs are just being childish.

They have already, the time line was advanced to the start of the clan invasion.

[jlbdeath]

clan weapons in the books and in all the games were better then IS the trade off was heat and weight. the question was raised if the clan lasers were better they are. the lasers are faster and pack a bigger hit same with the ppc's. but a well placed large laser or ppc will hurt no matter the tech, you just have to be the better warrior.

[CaveMan]

Aero Slasher, on 25 May 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

Clan tech is already balanced. everyone i seen seems to forget higher heat levels and longer recycle times!

This is untrue. Higher heat levels and recycle times were added to Mechwarrior 4 in a halfhearted attempt to keep Clan weapons from being uber. The canonical versions of Clan weapons have the same heat and recycle as their IS counterparts.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

jlbdeath, on 02 June 2012 - 01:57 AM, said:

clan weapons in the books and in all the games were better then IS the trade off was heat and weight. the question was raised if the clan lasers were better they are. the lasers are faster and pack a bigger hit same with the ppc's. but a well placed large laser or ppc will hurt no matter the tech, you just have to be the better warrior.

although that is true; there are some caveats:

clan tech is lighter - ergo clan mechs can mount more ERPPCs per ton.
clan tech is powerfule - ergo that ERPPC hit will be doing more damage
clan tech is cold - all frontline omni's have DHS built into them ergo the clan mech can fire said ERPPC's at a higher rate

again, yes skill is a factor, but the above stipulations but the odds on the clan players side in an average engagment.

[Jess Hazen]

A simple solution for canonical play would be to limit numbers as to have a clan binary star match up against an IS company, 10 vs 12.

One thing is for certain, It is going to be interesting to see what the developers do to the game with the introduction of the clans.

I just hope they do a nice job and dont muck it up to badly.

[Toldor]

Cifu, on 25 May 2012 - 05:58 AM, said:

Not all the time. The Clan LRM for example won't have minimum range, and even if they lost the larger range advantages, they still have smaller and lighter weapons and equipment's.

By rules you can hot-load your LRMs too. Means you declare to hot-load. Problem is if your launcher gets hit, you have a nice explosion close to your cockpit ;-) Except for the range maximum range, there is always a similiar IS technique available. Sometimes a bit more riskier than on clan-site. But i am sure we dont fear this :-)

Jess Hazen, on 02 June 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

A simple solution for canonical play would be to limit numbers as to have a clan binary star match up against an IS company, 10 vs 12.

There is a battle-value for every part in BT. I guess they will use it to mostly equal the fights.

[Skyefox]

BIDDING SYSTEM IMPLEMENTED?!

I want. Very much so.

[BlazeKaiser]

eldragon, on 25 May 2012 - 05:44 AM, said:

Here are the reasonable possibilities that come to mind:

1- Players don't actually get to play for the clan faction. Players can buy clan tech in the mechbay, but cannot go pure clan.
Pro: This way everyone is on the same footing. You want clan tech? earn in.
Con: If you want to win, you're going to need to put clan tech on your mech. Opens the door to "pay-to-win" by spending dollars for c-bills to buy clan tech.

2- Clan faction is something that any player can join. Game limits clan team size in some fashion. Either by BV or maximum number of players on the clan side in-game.
Pro: Lets players play through the clan invasion. Thats pretty awesome.
Con: Players will undoubtly flock to the clan faction in droves. BV systems have always been hard to balance, MWO probably won't get it right.

3- Clan faction can only be joined by players who have a character that has earned X amount of XP.
Pro: Only veteran players can join clain, keeping with lore. Prevents flood of clan players.
Con: Making clan veteran players only will just encourage more people to grind to a vet. pilot. Playing as IS will be the "newbie" faction; e.g. clan players don't have to deal with training in new players.

4a- Playing as clan is not tied to your pilot in any way. Instead if a player opts to join a match as the clan faction, the game assigns the mech to you. Cbills are still earned, but you don't get to take the clan mech home with you.
Pros: Players cannot flood clan faction. Game will not become an arms race to get to clan tech ASAP.
Con: You don't get to customize your mech, or keep a stable of clan tech handy.

4b - As 4a, except players can pick and customize their mech.
Pro: Players get to pick thier ride.
Con: Harder to balance clan vs. IS matches as players will prefer to join clan to use their favorite ride. e.g. Everyone picks Madcat, non takes the Uller.

Personally, I think option #4 is the best.

Option 3 is very similar to my Idea of experienced players becoming Bondsmen.
Option 1 is the standard idea of players purchasing(with non premium currency) clan tech for high cost.

Thats fair. It would be too expensive to use early on and would be more like #1 simple tech(ACs, LRMs, laser, standard mechs), #2 lostech(ultra ACs, streak SRMS, ER lasers, ferro armor, endo chassis), and #3 Clan tech.