4 replies to this topic

[StalaggtIKE]

PGI, please, add C3 computers. We currently have "Sensors", however this is an over simplification that has lead to other issues such as ECM and guided missiles.

But why add C3 computers?
In MWO mechs have the ability to auto detect any enemy within 800m. Basically, a red triangle pops over the enemy's head as long as you or an ally has los to the target. Currently, in games between 2 teams, one with ECM and the other without ECM, there is a huge disparity between detection ranges. When facing an enemy with ECM, one must be within 200m before they can spot and share target with the rest of their team.


This is a 600m difference in spot sharing! Simply put, this is huge!!! To be on equal footing, the team without ECM must share targets through chat or voip, in which takes time. Seconds being life or death.

What does a C3 computer do?
The C3 computer:

Quote

share[s] the linked lance/companies targeting data, the C3 Command Unit also duplicates the function of Target Acquisition Gear and can designate a target for Arrow IV homing missiles and Semi-Guided LRMs.
A C3 Command Unit is typically carried by a heavy or assault 'Mech due to its the larger size and weight, and its importance as the hub of a C3 network. Outright destruction or interruption by ECM of a command unit is quickest way to bring down the portion of the C3 network it controls.

So in summary:

• It enable sharing of targeting data
  
• It allows Target acquisition for guided missiles
  
• It can be brought down by ECM
  
• A C3 master/command unit provides links between C3 network units (C3 slave comptuers)

As you can see it pretty much works like our currently built in sensors. So there will not be much change in functionality. For ease of implementation sensors will remain as the standard, non-sharing target computer system. They will function more or less how radar currently interacts with ECM: must be well within range before you can even select the target, however there will be no sharing of target information. The C3 Slave will be a step up above sensors. Which means you must be close to target, instead now you can also share targeting data. With a C3 Master computer you will have increased range with target sharing, such as when no ECM mechs are on the field. So let's recap:

• Sensors - 0 tons, 1 crit slot, must be within 200m, no target sharing
  
• C3 Slave - 1 tons, 1 crit slot, replaces sensors, must be within 200m, target sharing allowed
  
• C3 Master - 3 tons, 2 crit slot, replaces sensors, can spot targets from 800m, taget sharing allowed

When, a player wants to save the extra tonnage to equip ECM, he will not be able to share any targeting data at all, unless he also carries a C3 computer. Of course one would still be able to designate targets through TAG or NARC. If he equips both ECM and C3 he will, for instance not be able to carry as much SSRM ammo, lasers, armor or/and ect. Same applies to LRM boats, the abilities of a C3 computer does not come for free and is now required for guided missile capabilities. Without it, LRM and SSRM must be dumb fired.



Will there be any changes to ECM?
Not really. The only "change" will be that ECM does not disrupt C3 computers until within 180m bubble. Which it currently does to radar.

Now if PGI wants to really wow us, they can expand upon this even further! According to BT lore a C3 Master must be used in order to "run" a C3 network. Basically a C3 Master must be on the field before any radar sharing is allowed at all. Next they can include upgrades to the C3 computer system:

• C3 Emergency master - 2 tons, 2 crit slots, is a slave computer that functions as a backup master if necessary
  
• C3 Boosted Master/C3 Boosted Slave - are immune to ECM, not compatible with previous C3 systems

By adding the C3 computers, one will need to equip it, if they want to share targeting data. What this will do is put everyone on a level playing field. One must consider taking a C3 computer for radar advantage. This will also add to information warfare as we were promised.



Source: C3_Computer (Master)

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 31 January 2013 - 07:12 AM.

[Taizan]

Yes. I'm with this.

http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/70133-suggestion-implementation-of-c3-masterslave-c3i-targeting-system

Edited by Taizan, 14 January 2013 - 08:53 AM.

[Mawai]

I'm not sure I follow. The current targeting system pretty much implicitly assumes that all mechs have a C3 type unit built in. When someone locks a target with R you can lock it too and obtain information. It can also be used for indirect firing of weapons systems. This target information sharing is shut down by ECM which is how it is currently implemented from what I can tell. This is why you can't share target data when within 180m of an ECM source.

I think the goal of your suggestion of requiring C3 master/slave units is to make it a requirement to use indirect fire. An LRM equipped mech would be unable to fire at a target it could not see unless the target was visible to a C3 slave equipped mech and the LRM mech had a C3 master unit. I think this would make LRMs almost useless since they would be unable to fire unless played in a fully coordinated group or played where the LRM mech was able to get a direct Line of Sight to the target at greater than 180m. Both of these situations can be difficult to arrange in many cases. The current implementation of ECM already significantly impacts both LRMs and SSRMs due to the lock on range limitations. Adding this additional requirement without changes to ECM would nerf them into uselessness. (Note: ECM shuts down C3 so there is no benefit to this revised system for targeted weapons at all) ... on the other hand, that may be the point ... it may be your opinion that LRMs are overpowered and this change would help to address that issue ... but it isn't clear to me.

Finally, I believe that LRMs and SSRMs are overpowered when not countered by ECM and ECM is in itself overpowered. When ECM and SSRM are combined on fast mechs that are hard to hit (in part due to lag issues that may not be resolvable with improved netcoding)... then the mechs involved become overpowered (if boring) to play. Adding C3 won't help to address this issue either ... only proper balancing of the effects of lock-on weapons and ECM will do this.

Edited by Mawai, 14 January 2013 - 09:04 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Mawai, on 14 January 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

I'm not sure I follow. The current targeting system pretty much implicitly assumes that all mechs have a C3 type unit built in. When someone locks a target with R you can lock it too and obtain information. It can also be used for indirect firing of weapons systems. This target information sharing is shut down by ECM which is how it is currently implemented from what I can tell. This is why you can't share target data when within 180m of an ECM source.

I think the goal of your suggestion of requiring C3 master/slave units is to make it a requirement to use indirect fire. An LRM equipped mech would be unable to fire at a target it could not see unless the target was visible to a C3 slave equipped mech and the LRM mech had a C3 master unit. I think this would make LRMs almost useless since they would be unable to fire unless played in a fully coordinated group or played where the LRM mech was able to get a direct Line of Sight to the target at greater than 180m. Both of these situations can be difficult to arrange in many cases. The current implementation of ECM already significantly impacts both LRMs and SSRMs due to the lock on range limitations. Adding this additional requirement without changes to ECM would nerf them into uselessness. (Note: ECM shuts down C3 so there is no benefit to this revised system for targeted weapons at all) ... on the other hand, that may be the point ... it may be your opinion that LRMs are overpowered and this change would help to address that issue ... but it isn't clear to me.

Finally, I believe that LRMs and SSRMs are overpowered when not countered by ECM and ECM is in itself overpowered. When ECM and SSRM are combined on fast mechs that are hard to hit (in part due to lag issues that may not be resolvable with improved netcoding)... then the mechs involved become overpowered (if boring) to play. Adding C3 won't help to address this issue either ... only proper balancing of the effects of lock-on weapons and ECM will do this.

I hoped to explain this in a easy to understand format. You are correct in saying this is pretty much how things currently functions. The real change is the loss of everyone receiving a "free" C3 computer. Currently ECM mechs have the benefit of being stealth up to 200m, while still being able to spot non-ECM out to 800m. The point is for C3 to now cost weight and space. That means if one wants both stealth and advanced radar detection they must sacrifice in other ways, be it weapons, like dual SSRMs on the RVN-3L. This also applies to a LRM boat. He can use TAG to self designate without radar sharing of C3. Or go with C3, with the need to free up tonnage, through less ammo. Thanks. I forgot to add the "change" to ECM. It will only disrupt C3 within 180m bubble, pretty much as it does now. Everything else remains the same. The ultimate goal is to be rid of the 600m range difference between ECM vs non-ECM mechs.

I agree with you on ECM and LRM/SSRM. I hope this explains it better. This is not my ideal fix, however I feel this could be a great compromise, if PGI does not want to change ECM/LRM balance.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 14 January 2013 - 09:28 AM.

[Solis Obscuri]

C3 computers share data that enhances direct-fire weapon accuracy. They do not affect indirect-fire by LRM systems, nor are they a requirement for basic information sharing by scouts or spotters.

MWO ECM really just looks like a system devised by someone who never read the basic Intro-level Rules of Warfare and decided a crutch mode was needed so scrub players could barge into 30 meters to spam magic SSRMs that only hit CT, without being vulnerable to physical attacks,