208 replies to this topic

[Armorpiercer M82]

Targor Avelany, on 15 January 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

. So screaming to remove teamwork sounds ridiculous.

So, how can we improve the experience of the new player?

we dont want teamwork to be removed, just OPTIONAL.
pug vs pug
prem vs prem

thats answer to your last question. simple.

Edited by Armorpiercer M82, 15 January 2013 - 09:59 AM.

[PropagandaWar]

IV Amen, on 15 January 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

You were actually so OP at typing you missed my reply to Joseph.

Because I have mad skillz lmao

[Joseph Mallan]

Imperial X, on 15 January 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

What is this your first MMO ?

Yes. Yes it is My first MMO. Thanks for asking!

[ExplodedZombie]

Does the term "long wolf" have a sexy appeal to you or are you just to lazy to find a group? This is a tactical game that requires teamwork. Get on board.

[Sir Trent Howell]

This has got to be the dumbest thread ever.
1. Premades play against other premades, not pugs.
2. This is a TEAM game. If you're tired of getting rolled by other teams either:
a) Get better.
Find a better team.

[Joseph Mallan]

One thing that isn't being discussed is that when(IF) the CW gets implemented it is the teams that will get seated first and PUGs will fill the open slots on either/both team, in the faction oriented fights (Marik v Liao, Steiner v Wolf etc).

[Serapth]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 January 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

One thing that isn't being discussed is that when(IF) the CW gets implemented it is the teams that will get seated first and PUGs will fill the open slots on either/both team, in the faction oriented fights (Marik v Liao, Steiner v Wolf etc).

Frankly I just dont think the community is even close to big enough for this yet.

I mean, people are saying the MM wouldn't survive spliting Pugs from Premades... now doing on factions... eep.

[Armorpiercer M82]

Sir Trent Howell, on 15 January 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

This has got to be the dumbest thread ever.
1. Premades play against other premades, not pugs.

I stopped here. you dont know what you are talking about, sir.

[Gallowglas]

Armorpiercer M82, on 15 January 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

e e wrong paul.
I never said , every team that meltdown me, came from premades. Read again.

Forgive me, I shouldn't use a more general "you" when responding to individual posts without some clarification. I wasn't trying to single you out. I just meant in general people believe the problem to be more ubiquitous than it probably really is and even if they correct the problem, there will still be people who are firmly convinced that the PuG they just faced was a premade.

Edited by Gallowglas, 15 January 2013 - 10:22 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Serapth, on 15 January 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

Frankly I just dont think the community is even close to big enough for this yet.

I mean, people are saying the MM wouldn't survive spliting Pugs from Premades... now doing on factions... eep.

Well factions +PUGs (ie Lone Wolfs)

[Greiva]

I have seen pre-mades a lot lately. When you see 5 Raven ECM's on the same team, 4 of those are in a group. Not to mention the fact they all had the same camo.

This can be fixed easily enough by limiting ECM to 0-2 per team. There is no winning against a team with 5+ ECMing mechs. And I dont want to hear the "you dont always get a good match" arguement.

If this was real life, no lance would be total ECM mechs..

[Malkav]

Clearly all players who want to play this team based game as a team are cheaters and should be shot on sight! Ban premades cause the OP is too antisocial to find one!

[Lykaon]

Serapth, on 15 January 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

Frankly I just dont think the community is even close to big enough for this yet.

I mean, people are saying the MM wouldn't survive spliting Pugs from Premades... now doing on factions... eep.

I said the same thing a while back.The player base needs to be pretty big to manage any sort of timely match making along these lines.

The more perameters added the longer the que times and so on.

I whole heartedly support a matchmaker that includes both Pug and premade players and of course this needs to assign premades vs premades first then back fill pugs.

This will match a premade vs premade then search for pugs to fill the remaining 8 team slots on each side.
Another probable perameter would be never ever have premade + premade on one side. No more than one premade per side ever.

Eventually (hopefully) we will see 12 v 12 and having 4 man premades with 8 pugs per team should lessen the impact of the premades.

I play this game as a PuG in 8 mans and 4 mans I know what this game looks like from many angles.

[Velba]

SlXSlXSlX, on 14 January 2013 - 11:54 PM, said:

Facepalm. Reading comprehension kids. This does not have to do with how experienced players perform in pub matches, I, and I am sure most of you on these forums, do pretty decent in pubs. Were not new. Also the argument is not, pubs could do well, bc they have all the same equipment available. Lets give some m16s and walkie talkies to some soldiers, then some to some chimps. Presumably, the soldiers would win.

The chimps with m16s, is your new mwo player, with 3 other new mwo players, versus a veteran premade. Both are using ts.

The point is, if u managed to read this far, that this problem is inbedded in the community at this point, and it relates to community size/long-term success of the game.

Reading comprehension kid. My post has nothing to do with experienced players, it's for those new players that don't know teamwork is going to help you win against people using teamwork.

Because apparently they think lone-wolfing should be a viable play style.

Which it could be if your the best player around.

[Serapth]

Velba, on 15 January 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

Reading comprehension kid. My post has nothing to do with experienced players, it's for those new players that don't know teamwork is going to help you win against people using teamwork.

Because apparently they think lone-wolfing should be a viable play style.

Which it could be if your the best player around.

I think this borders on being a strawman.


Just because problems exist, it doesnt discount other problems from being a factor.

I dont think I have ever heard anyone argue that pugs are superior players, or that a lot of pugs have no concept of how to best play the game. That is going to always be true by the simple fact that 100% of newbies and the majority of casual players are going to be pugs.

At the end of the day though, their lack of ability or lack of teamplay skills have NOTHING to do with a game balance issue. Even if every pug knew how to play the game perfectly as a team, there would still be a misbalance between pugs and premades. The fact that many of the PUG population happen to also be clueless actually exasperates the divide.

But hey, keep throwing out that strawman if you want, just when people see it for what it is, the effectiveness is gone.

[Lykaon]

[REDACTED]


And there is plenty of that on the other side of the fence.

PuG players demanding that any and all premades of any sort be seperated into a small community and not allowed to avail themselves of the advantages of a larger player pool. Like for example que times that are under 6 minutes.

The issue is these pugs who make these demands are blisfully unaware of how the other side plays or what they experience in 8 man ques.These exclusivly PuG players lack the overall experience to be a qualified judge.

If the segragation occurs they get to play their way and if any premade preferanced player wants to also play they can either face the potential of a long wait in que or PuG.essentially being forced to play the PuG way if you want to play in a timely manner.

The "PuG" in this case is essentially saying play my way or be sent away to match maker purgatory.

Edited by Viterbi, 15 January 2013 - 06:27 PM.
Removed reference to removed content

[Velba]

Serapth, on 15 January 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

But hey, keep throwing out that strawman if you want, just when people see it for what it is, the effectiveness is gone.

I don't really feel that it's a strawman, the reason being that I personally don't think there would be as big of a performance gap if people were to play more congruently as a team (i.e. no more 8-0 8-1 and more of 8-4 8-5).

I think their lack of teamplay has a huge impact on the exasperating the "game balance" issue. When premade plays premade the game feels a lot more balanced and fun then when premade stomps pugs who refuse to use basic teamwork. Pugs who use teamwork can easily beat a premade that is not using teamwork.

So clearly the balance isn't in the code. It's the play style. It's easier to change from a bad play style then to code for bad players.

[SlXSlXSlX]

Pages and pages and pages, whilst i was working. Now im patching.

For the record, alot of the arguments here barely address the other sides arguments..

For example when I make 4 points, they responses address the weakest one, or attack me personally, but never address the strongest arguments. By and large we fight over nothing, unless this counter has been patched in so we can discuss community side, with facts.

Alot of these "positions" are based off of countering a specific request. Some request a seperate queue, so they address that, it will fracture the community, but dont address for example my suggestion of reducing premades to 20% ala wot. The only response I get to that is, in lore we had 4 man lances. Well swell, did they always fight 8v8 in bt lore too?

Its jsut a bunch of half cooked poor arguments. Fortunately the detached 3rd party, neither victim to premades, nor beneficiary of their advantages, can see the arguments objectively.

I cant wait to see how it plays our now that mm has been patched into mwo... exciting times.

[Serapth]

Velba, on 15 January 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

I don't really feel that it's a strawman, the reason being that I personally don't think there would be as big of a performance gap if people were to play more congruently as a team (i.e. no more 8-0 8-1 and more of 8-4 8-5).

I think their lack of teamplay has a huge impact on the exasperating the "game balance" issue. When premade plays premade the game feels a lot more balanced and fun then when premade stomps pugs who refuse to use basic teamwork. Pugs who use teamwork can easily beat a premade that is not using teamwork.

Oh, I certainly agree, on all levels. I still think the ideal solution is to put a premade on each time. Balances the advantages between matches, makes for better matches, pugs and premades are in the same queue, everybody wins.

Quote

So clearly the balance isn't in the code. It's the play style. It's easier to change from a bad play style then to code for bad players.

And... hard stop. This is when I stop agreeing and we go back to strawman land. The problems aren't mutually exclusive. The balance is the code, *AND* the playstyle. Excluding one because the other exists is just foley, and putting for one to invalidate the other IS a strawman.

SlXSlXSlX, on 15 January 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

I cant wait to see how it plays our now that mm has been patched into mwo... exciting times.

Did you read something I didn't? Or is my sarcasm detector broken?

[Joseph Mallan]

ComGuard fights in 6s...
...
...
just saying.