208 replies to this topic

[w0rm]

Lykaon, on 15 January 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

There is a problem with desiring this game to be puggie paradise.The problem is that Mechwarrior Online is by intentional design a team oriented game.

If the game was meant to be optimized for random players with wide gulf of skill between them to be successful it wouldn't need the complexity it has.

Puggie wonderland online would have 1 stock mech with identical loadouts for all players.That would be fair and easy to ballance.

Puggie wonderland online would have one game mode,Free for all death match.No need to complicate things with teams.

Puggie wonderland online would have third person view and infinate respawns.Not this battle of attrition crap that requires care husbanding of resources to succeed.

Nope we didn't get Puggie wonderland online we got Mechwarrior.

By design this game has core features.as discused by the devs they are...

Information warfare: The control of intelligence to forward the goals of your team.In this aspect premades with voice coms dominate.Were the developers aware that team speak existed? damn right they were aware.
By design this pillar information warfare is enhanced by premades with voice comms.

Role warfare: The use of the varrious chassis classes to fufill battlefield roles.Seeing how puggie matches are a random potluck of whatever happens to be in que and matches some other bunch of random mechs I highly doubt PuG matches are designed to be the pinnical of Role Warfare.
Now premades...yep a premade can hand pick mechs based upon desired roles on the battlefield.These mechs can be further optimized to specialize within the premades desired role warfare participation.
Did the Devs know that Pug matches are totally random selections of whatever mechs were in que? Yep they wrote the code they clearly knew that Role warfare would be best expressed by premades.

Community Warfare: The interactions between the great houses and large merc corps as they capture and defend worlds in an ongoing and persistant game enviorment.
Granted this is in concept and we have nothing concrete as of yet but...

If role warfare and information warfare are used to compete in community warfare and puggies do both poorly and premades do both very well guess who will be the main driving force behind Community warfare?

Premades.

This game is by design a team game and premade teams are superior teams.The game is not optimized for puggies it is optimized for premades and that is an intentional design choice.

Well said.

[Ilwrath]

Lykaon, on 15 January 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

This game is by design a team game and premade teams are superior teams.The game is not optimized for puggies it is optimized for premades and that is an intentional design choice.

Then let premades face premades. What is the problem? Do you want those who prefer to pug to leave the game or do you prefer them to have fun, even if that means that you don't get to stomp them with the aid of better team work, and help fund the development of the game. The game you enjoy and want to prosper.

[Gallowglas]

It's funny...I solo dropped a few matches last night because my friends were wusses and went to bed early. We dropped into a match in which we had two immediate dc's. Folks were discussing how we were probably going to get steamrolled by a premade and it would be over with quickly, but to stick together and focus fire. We proceeded to obliterate the other team because they were careless and allowed themselves to get separated. Right before the match ended, I see in chat from the other team: "*^$&*$ing premades". It's funny how distorted perception can become when you rely on anecdotal evidence and become convinced that every game against a team that coordinates better MUST be a premade.

And, yes, I know there are plenty of legitimate premades out there, but people really do have a knee-jerk reaction to it.

[Armorpiercer M82]

Gallowglas, on 15 January 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

It's funny...I solo dropped a few matches last night because my friends were wusses and went to bed early. We dropped into a match in which we had two immediate dc's. Folks were discussing how we were probably going to get steamrolled by a premade and it would be over with quickly, but to stick together and focus fire. We proceeded to obliterate the other team because they were careless and allowed themselves to get separated. Right before the match ended, I see in chat from the other team: "*^$&*$ing premades". It's funny how distorted perception can become when you rely on anecdotal evidence and become convinced that every game against a team that coordinates better MUST be a premade.

And, yes, I know there are plenty of legitimate premades out there, but people really do have a knee-jerk reaction to it.

and do you know why ? because in most cases, they had this bad expirience from premades indeed. simple.

Edited by Armorpiercer M82, 15 January 2013 - 09:37 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ilwrath, on 15 January 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

Then let premades face premades. What is the problem? Do you want those who prefer to pug to leave the game or do you prefer them to have fun, even if that means that you don't get to stomp them with the aid of better team work, and help fund the development of the game. The game you enjoy and want to prosper.

I'd say I face a Premade 50-65% of the time. using the 4 man drop option. i to would love to win more matches than I do now. But I don't and I don't cry about it.

1,299W/769L
Yeah 59.2% win rate as a 4 man team. We so stomp and dominate in the 4 man/PUG queue!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 15 January 2013 - 09:39 AM.

[Gallowglas]

Honestly, I think the easiest solution would be to do away with the 4-man/8-man distinction and have the matchmaker simply look at how many you have grouped and try to match you against a similarly-numbered premade, filling in with puggers as needed. You could try to match by weight class within those parameters, but giving preference to pure numbers. If you're in a 6-man premade and no other 6-man is queued up, it looks for a 7-man opponent, then an 8-man, and THEN works its way down. It could also give preference for those who PuG to be placed into a premade-free group as first priority.

I don't know...I just think there are several algorithms that would make this whole nonsense about specific premade numbers and coordinated drop manipulations obsolete or much less pronounced.

[Serapth]

Gallowglas, on 15 January 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

Honestly, I think the easiest solution would be to do away with the 4-man/8-man distinction and have the matchmaker simply look at how many you have grouped and try to match you against a similarly-numbered premade, filling in with puggers as needed. You could try to match by weight class within those parameters, but giving preference to pure numbers. If you're in a 6-man premade and no other 6-man is queued up, it looks for a 7-man opponent, then an 8-man, and THEN works its way down. It could also give preference for those who PuG to be placed into a premade-free group as first priority.

I don't know...I just think there are several algorithms that would make this whole nonsense about specific premade numbers and coordinated drop manipulations obsolete or much less pronounced.

This is what ive been advocating all along. Hell, it doesnt even fall into the realm of algorithms...

Do we have a 4 man premade in the queue? Yes. Ok, do we have another? Yes. If yes, match them up, fill in with PUGs with offseting weight mechs/ECM mechs.
If no, do we have a 3 man in the queue? Ok, match them against a 4man, and give the 3man side a small weight advantage.

Repeat and rinse until you have 8 people.

The worse case scenario is there is only 1 premade in the queue... in which case, in the worst case, the game plays exactly like it does today.

[Joseph Mallan]

Armorpiercer M82, on 15 January 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

and do you know why ? because in most cases, they had this bad expirience from premades indeed. simple.

I thought a 2 man disadvantage was insurmountable?
Gallowglas, good suggestion sir.

[Gallowglas]

Armorpiercer M82, on 15 January 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

and do you know why ? because in most cases, they had this bad expirience from premades indeed. simple.

That's fine, except that you distort the entire problem when you become convinced that every team that rolls you must by definition be a premade. I do agree that it's something that needs to be addressed for many, many reasons, but I do think it's sometimes the scapegoat for bad gameplay and an illusory panacea.

Edited by Gallowglas, 15 January 2013 - 09:44 AM.

[Greyfyl]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 January 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

I'd say I face a Premade 50-65% of the time. using the 4 man drop option. i to would love to win more matches than I do now. But I don't and I don't cry about it.

1,299W/769L
Yeah 59.2% win rate as a 4 man team. We so stomp and dominate in the 4 man/PUG queue!

If you only win at 59% using the same 4 man team then you are horrible.

Well, actually I probably gave you too much credit. No wonder you are doing 4 mans.

[Joseph Mallan]

Serapth, on 15 January 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

This is what ive been advocating all along.

then sir you had the good suggestion first...better... Um yeah... yo know!

Greyfyl, on 15 January 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

If you only win at 59% using the same 4 man team then you are horrible.

Well, actually I probably gave you too much credit. No wonder you are doing 4 mans.

not always the same 4 man... there are close to 60 lawmen, and we have a lot of new and/or returning players. Remember a good number of our membership are "active duty" soldiers.

Oh remember I PUG a bit too!

or were you trying to be insulting... i can rarely tell!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 15 January 2013 - 09:48 AM.

[Armorpiercer M82]

Gallowglas, on 15 January 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

That's fine, except that you distort the entire problem when you become convinced that every team that rolls you must by definition be a premade. I do agree that it's something that needs to be addressed for many, many reasons, but I do think it's sometimes the scapegoat for bad gameplay and an illusory panacea.

e e wrong paul.
I never said , every team that meltdown me, came from premades. Read again.

[Bguk]

Armorpiercer M82, on 15 January 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

e e wrong paul.
I never said , every team that meltdown me, came from premades. Read again.

That's all I ever get from your postings on this topic

[Serapth]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 January 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

then sir you had the good suggestion first...better... Um yeah... yo know!


not always the same 4 man... there are close to 60 lawmen, and we have a lot of new and/or returning players. Remember a good number of our membership are "active duty" soldiers.

Oh remember I PUG a bit too!

or were you trying to be insulting... i can rarely tell!

Seriously, we had this exact discussion and conclusion a long time ago ( http://mwomercs.com/...-why-dont-they/ )

General consensus on both sides of the equation is that its the best compromise decision. I have yet to hear an argument against balancing premades across teams. Well, "screw puggies" isn't a valid argument.

[Rift Hawk]

SlXSlXSlX, on 14 January 2013 - 11:43 PM, said:

Premades do win all the time. Matches have lopsided ending results quite often, in fact it is the norm. Anecdotes aside, 4 man premades in 8 man matches was a terrible idea, and has resulted in exactly what we see before us. You can look at pub farming favorably if you want, most founders do. (Not all)

You would think by now, with all the MMOs out there, that you would have realised most of them require team work. THIS IS A TEAM BASED GAME !!!! How many times do people have to say it in this forum before people get it ? What is this your first MMO ?

I have a teamspeak with guys that I have been playing games with for the past 6 years or so. We all met playing DoD: source. Some people play poker together in their free time. We jump on TS and play video games. Its a nice break from the daily grind and we all have fun. Its really not hard to get a good group of people together on a teamspeak. Though in this particular game, it is. They need a better ingame communication systems so that people can chat with others in a lobby or in the game.

However, Premades are completely legit. Your just upset about them because you aren't willing to put in the effort to find other people to play with. That isn't our fault. Its yours. If you don't want to play with others to achieve victory then you shouldn't play an MMO. You should be playing a single player game. Any MMO i've spent any time playing requires you to play with others if you want the best gear. You can't solo raids in WoW or Rift. Can't run 10/10s in EVE alone either. I don't understand why people think playing an MMO should be a single player experience....

[Serapth]

Imperial X, on 15 January 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

You would think by now, with all the MMOs out there, that you would have realised most of them require team work. THIS IS A TEAM BASED GAME !!!! How many times do people have to say it in this forum before people get it ? What is this your first MMO ?

I have a teamspeak with guys that I have been playing games with for the past 6 years or so. We all met playing DoD: source. Some people play poker together in their free time. We jump on TS and play video games. Its a nice break from the daily grind and we all have fun. Its really not hard to get a good group of people together on a teamspeak. Though in this particular game, it is. They need a better ingame communication systems so that people can chat with others in a lobby or in the game.

However, Premades are completely legit. Your just upset about them because you aren't willing to put in the effort to find other people to play with. That isn't our fault. Its yours. If you don't want to play with others to achieve victory then you shouldn't play an MMO. You should be playing a single player game. Any MMO i've spent any time playing requires you to play with others if you want the best gear. You can't solo raids in WoW or Rift. Can't run 10/10s in EVE alone either. I don't understand why people think playing an MMO should be a single player experience....

... do people even read the threads anymore? This is like the 10th time pretty much this EXACT comment was posted.

[Armorpiercer M82]

Bguk, on 15 January 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

That's all I ever get from your postings on this topic

im loud, sometimes not correct, but i never said this. show me ?
the reason im bitching here is, i realy want to separate pugs from premade completely in 1 quee/option. just this.
The reason is simple, i personaly think a 4man premade team is stronger then non-premade team.
and that is all.

[Asha Burnett]

Taizan, on 15 January 2013 - 05:25 AM, said:

The language you speak? Chances are high if you play during your local regions prime time, you will have people from similar reagions playing. So often I've seen German chatting in german going on when playing in the evening GMT + 1

Really? For example if I'm living in Germany the prime time also counts for Western Russia, Poland, Norway, Sweden, Finnland, Denmark, Slovenia, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Italy, France, Belgium, etc.
I don't think that they all will speak the same native language. Of course probably most of them are capable of speaking english – but not all of them or not very well.
So I don't think that integrated VOIP is the holy grail, at least not until regional servers are available.

Edited by Asha Burnett, 15 January 2013 - 10:03 AM.

[Targor Avelany]

Eh... I think the forum "General" on all gaming forums (except probably subsim only) are for "lets scream and whine as hard as we can".

Once again: this game is a TEAM game. So screaming to remove teamwork sounds ridiculous. To demand that an UNORGANIZED group of players had the same chance of winning as an ORGANIZED group of players means to demand to somehow gimp the organized group.
The other suggestion I saw is to split - oh, lets just allow pugs to fight only pugs and groups only fight groups. Now THIS, I would argue, is SPLITTING the population. On top of that, a lot of 4team premades are relying on the pugs to fill in the rest of the team in order to play. So what happening with 8man teams (someone was posting the No Match Found fun), will start happening to 4man teams...
Ok, what can be done to improve the "NEW PLAYER PUG EXPERIENCE" is the correct question in this case, not the "dumb down the game! Nerf premades!!!".
Because the only people who pug after getting into the game and playing for a while are the people who CHOOSE to, or, like myself or someone else posted, they can play only PUG due to RL. meh, not a big deal to me. And if you CHOOSE to pug I don't see how you would be complaining about premades if you thought seriously about it, as I just can't see what are you gaining out of that in a game sense. It is not like it would remove some very "input very negative description" type people out of the game. They still will join your matches and ruin your day. What else is there???...
So, how can we improve the experience of the new player?

[Rift Hawk]

Serapth, on 15 January 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

... do people even read the threads anymore? This is like the 10th time pretty much this EXACT comment was posted.

I only posted in response to the original poster as I'm getting ready take off for the day. Didn't have time to read 10 pages of posts.