224 replies to this topic

[MajorLeeHung]

Carnivoris, on 15 January 2013 - 08:14 PM, said:

Before you know it, all ACs will shoot Nerf bullets and PPCs will tickle the pilot of your target mech.

^ this. I laughed so hard at the visual that popped up in my head I pooped (just a lil bit!)

[Joe Mallad]

Orgasmo, on 15 January 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

Not sure which TT game you were playing, but it sure as hell ain't BattleTech.

"Enemy long-range sensors can find vehicles and 'Mechs within the curtain, but the Guardian obscures the reading and prevents identification."
(Technical Readout: 3050 Revised, pg 196)

"The ECM does not affect other scanning or targeting devices such as TAG and targeting computers"
(Total Warfare, pg 134)

"ECM blocks the effects of Artemis IV fire control systems. Artemis-equipped launchers may be fired as normal missiles through the ECM, but they lose the Cluster Hits Table Bonus"
(Total Warfare, pg 134)

"Active probes cannot penetrate the ECM's area of effect. The probing unit would notice it is being jammed, however"
(Total Warfare, pg 134)

"Though ECM systems can prevent a sensor probe from identifying a unit, they produce powerful distinctive electronic signatures."
(Maximum Tech, pg 54)

thank you!

[Sable Dove]

So what it should do is counter TAG, NARC, Artemis, etc, but still allow you to lock on to it? That sounds like what it should do. Especially since it's lighter and smaller than all the things it would still counter.

[Dagger6T6]

me... i'm also getting tired of piloting one and scoring a the top of the leaderboard on most occasions

e-z-mode

[Wynn80]

I've always ran Raven's since MechWarroir 2and Battletech, I miss the pods from North pier in Chicago

My issue is and I know a lot of it has to do with the nature of pugs being bad in mmos, but I've been getting my face bash in all night with all the "faster" light mechs. Hell my last match had 2-3 spiders on each team and having two of them circling me isn't fun.

I just want to be full support and not dead man walking. I really hope the other layers of combat they going to add is going to help.

[Joe Mallad]

Sable Dove, on 15 January 2013 - 09:58 PM, said:

So what it should do is counter TAG, NARC, Artemis, etc, but still allow you to lock on to it? That sounds like what it should do. Especially since it's lighter and smaller than all the things it would still counter.

yes and you should be able to still pick up a target on radar, just not get any target info. So if a Raven is out there with ECM, you're radar should still pick it up but where the target info ( mech type and load out) would normally come up, this would not happen. You could still fire LRMs at the target if you had a lock, you just could not tell what that target was you were firing at. On top of that... Because ECM mech could still be targeted but not identified, ECM was given the ability to throw out ghost signals to throw off its enemy so the enemy would fire at a target that was not really there.

The way PGI created ECM, you can't lock on or even see a ECM mech on radar. That is the effect of a Null Signature equipment which is not even in the game yet.

[Sable Dove]

Yeah, it's kind of ridiculous that the Devs could possibly think the ECM is balanced. I mean, just look at the things it makes useless:
TAG
NARC
Artemis
LRMs
SSRMs
While also making them untargetable, invisible to radar, and also giving all this to mechs in a rather large radius.

Also, it shows up on light mechs, which exploit lag shields to reduce the effectiveness of slow weapons and SRMs.
I dare the devs to take a Catapult A1 into a game against a couple 3Ls. I have been, and it's absolutely no fun. LRMs are useless in general; SSRMs are useless against ECM (they should at least be dumb-fire capable), and SRMs are very difficult to use against fast targets.

The Catapult A1 is rendered nearly useless by ECM. Which is unfortunate, because if not for ECM, I would love it. I guess I just unlucky in that I picked the one chassis that ECM almost completely nullifies.

[IceCase88]

Guardian ECM Suite

This article is about the ECM Suite. For other uses, see Guardian (disambiguation).

Contents

 [hide] 1 Description2 Manufactuing3 Rules3.1 Game Rules4 References5 Bibliography

[edit]Description

The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony[1]. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.[2] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The Capellan Confederation expanded the utility of the Guardian even more with the introduction of Stealth Armor.[3]The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes.[2]The Clans used the Guardian as the basis for their own ECM Suite, which is lighter and more compact than the Inner Sphere model but functions identically. The Draconis Combine used the Guardian as the basis for their experimental Angel ECM Suite.[4]

[edit]Manufactuing

Guardian ECM Suite is manufactured on the following planets:BrandPlanetCompanyApple Churchill Golden ShieldCapellaCeres Metals IndustriesCherrySeed CloakArc-RoyalWinston-CherrySeed ConsolidatedGarret-Guardian Interface 2BMendhamMendham ElectronicsGarret-Guardian Interface 2BDaltonGarret SatCommNew Samarkand NimbusNew SamarkandNew Samarkand MetalsNorse Guardian ECMLoxleyNorse-Storm Technologies Incorporated

[edit]Rules

[edit]Game Rules

The Inner Sphere Guardian ECM weighs 1.5 tons and takes up 2 critical spaces. It has an operational range of six hexes.[5][6] The Guardian ECM Suite has a defensive Battle Value of 61.[7]The Clan ECM Suite system weighs 1 ton and occupies a single critical space. In every other way it's identical to the Inner Sphere version.[8][9]

Battletech Wiki. Go to sarna.net and search for guardian ecm. Even tells you how many hexes are effected by it for TT. Enough said. Thank you come again.

I was thinking about the fix of the 3L. The narc, tag, and bap should be made standard equipment necessary to the function of the mech that cannot be removed like HS, gyros, and engine. Then take away some of hardpoints.

Edited by IceCase88, 15 January 2013 - 10:33 PM.

[o0Marduk0o]

Yoseful Mallad, on 15 January 2013 - 07:48 PM, said:

not whining. But when you are in ANY mech with or without Cannons... id like to see you live more than a few seconds when you have 4 to 8 ECM Ravens running circles around you. You then tell me how well your cannons do when you cant hit them.

That's the point, you can't hit them. But this is no ECM issue, it's a net-code problem and their are going to fix it. When you can actually hit a light mech with direct fire weapons without shooting in front of him to get some lucky hits, the whole issue may change.
Right now, the best way to deal with light mechs is using SSRM because they hit, even with bad net-code. This is why ECM is OP because it cancels the only good working counter to light mechs.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

but the devs have said they like OP stuff cause it makes the game more diverse... they couldnt be wrong O.o

[Kousagi]

Really, the raven is one of the lesser of the light mechs. The Jenner still holds the title as best light mech in the game. The problem is that netcode is messed up causing lights to be hard to hit, and SSRM's being OP. Since SSRM's are still OP as all hell, ECM makes the 3L look OP, cause it can deny the use of OP weapons ( ssrm/lrms ) to other mechs while allowing it to use these same OP weapons. All the while having the lag shield make it more robust then a atlas, unless someone gets a lucky shot with a high alpha damage weapon.

The way to fix the over abundance of ravens is to nerf SSRM's, and fix the netcode. Once both of them are done raven usage will hit all time low, and the jenner will be the go to light mech once again, but the overall usage of light mechs will also drop quite a bit.

ECM is not a main factor in raven usage, as much as people cry about ECM, its not that OP. What makes it seem OP is the use of Streaks and LRM's, as the team with more ECM gets to use the OP weapons. 'Cause If both streaks/LRM's, hit like wet noodles and no one used them, then no one would cry about ECM cause its other effects really don't do anything to combat. As anyone with half a brain can tell that a mech without a box around it is a bad guy, and if your buddys suddenly drop off the radar, theres a ECM next to them. Though SSRM's and LRM's are still too good of weapons in a ECM-less battlefield.

Edited by Kousagi, 15 January 2013 - 11:09 PM.

[LasWaffentrager]

The light mech ECM sucks because of 3 things:


1. Unfair game balancing - I was once in a game with 3 ECM ravens. 1 stayed to protect firing line. 2 scattered and disrupted our LRM boats. On our side there was a BIG 0 ECM mechs. Of course it was utter slaughter in 3 minutes.

2. ECM negates all unguided missiles. LRMs are useless while SSRMs only lock within a narrow 50meters (not sure how narrow) within the 270meters effective SSRM range.

3. Network Lag - without lock on missiles, lights become impervious to directed energy or ballistic attacks, as long as they run in circles and figure 8s (which they know and exploit)

Just one proposal for the Devs (i dont think im the first to say this):

I do hope that they turn ECM into offensive and defensive modes. something that can either hide an enemy unit from long range radar, or prolong enemy lock-on and disrupt long range sensors (it should be two types of modules, not one combat-selectable type.) That will balance out a lot of the ECM capabilities.

[Wynn80]

People know a scout with a tag can counter ECM?

One of the things I like doing on my Raven is breaking away from my team and mark targets for them. Hell I be happier if I could have a bigger support role, right now everyone thinks that all the Raven pilots are brawlers.

[ICEFANG13]

For the record, the Jenner-D who receives all of this strange hate was never the undisputed king, at the time before ECM, it was the most used, and probably the best. That being said, unless you use all 4 laser points and both missile points, you'd be better off in a Raven-3L (pre-ECM) or a Jenner-K, because they can do the same build but with an extra module slot. At the time, modules are not make or break, but I suspect we will get more and more cool ones. Because the Jenner-D has both of its missiles in the torso, it only really had 1 great build (and only has 3 builds it can do better than all other mechs), 4 lasers, 2 SSRMs. With ECM on the Raven, the Jenner-D is honestly worthless and it doesn't compare anymore. Its unfortunate, because while I agree that the Jenner-D was overall the best, light balance was a lot heavier before ECM, really now its all about the 3L or 2D with ECM, the Jenner-F is a far 3rd.

Sorry OP (who is correct, ECM is the name of the game... still, (bad words) PGI, in 8 mans). You'll have to accept that.

Do what I do, abuse the crap out of it in PUGs, I love killing new players relentlessly and telling them they need to get a Raven-3L and that its "working as intended". 3Ls are the best light mech, and they will stay that way, even after netcode fixes (this may make the Jenner-F 2nd best, or at least much closer to 2nd). ECM does so much that even without affecting SSRMs or LRMs, it would easily be worth the tonnage. Nothing comes close in terms of power/ton+slots, and no mech that can use it, doesn't.

Wynn80, on 15 January 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

People know a scout with a tag can counter ECM?

One of the things I like doing on my Raven is breaking away from my team and mark targets for them. Hell I be happier if I could have a bigger support role, right now everyone thinks that all the Raven pilots are brawlers.

Sigh like this even works right. It doesn't counter it, ECM counters ECM. It takes a second to allow lock, takes around 4 seconds to get a lock, takes another 4 or so seconds for a missile lock. In that time, they can move, see your TAG with thermals, or decide to kill you. TAG weighs 1 ton, 1 slot, 1 energy point, and requires you to maintain LOS and actually aim at the target. ECM requires to you do nothing... How does TAG "COUNTER" ECM again? It slows it down, sort of.

Edited by ICEFANG13, 15 January 2013 - 11:26 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Why they dont just make ECM like its supposed to and NOT combine two pieces of tech (one that doesnt exist for two years at least)?

Guardian ECM: Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.^[2] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming.
---note, not missile systems THEMSELVES but the stuff that ENHANCES them

Angel ECM: The Angel ECM Suite represents a great advance in ECM technology from the standard Guardian model. Within its 6 hex radius of effect, the Angel suite completely blocks the following systems on enemy units: Artemis IV, Artemis V, Beagle Active Probes, Bloodhound Active Probes and their Clan equivalents, C3 Master Computers and C3 Slaves, Streak Missile Launchers and Narc missile beacons. Streak missiles may be fired at units affected by the device, but they function as standard missiles.
---note: interrupts missile systems
---also note: Development of the Angel began in the Draconis Combine shortly after the Battle of Luthien, but despite assistance from ComStar, cost overruns and internal problems within both powers delayed its widespread deployment
---Battle of Luthien: (3052): the invasion by Clan Smoke Jaguar and Clan Nova Cat
Two years after the timeline if they go with the game starting at 3050
Im starting to think they should just go with 3055 and get these nagging timeline issues out of the way.

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 15 January 2013 - 11:28 PM.

[Wynn80]

ICEFANG13, on 15 January 2013 - 11:23 PM, said:

Sigh like this even works right. It doesn't counter it, ECM counters ECM. It takes a second to allow lock, takes around 4 seconds to get a lock, takes another 4 or so seconds for a missile lock. In that time, they can move, see your TAG with thermals, or decide to kill you. TAG weighs 1 ton, 1 slot, 1 energy point, and requires you to maintain LOS and actually aim at the target. ECM requires to you do nothing... How does TAG "COUNTER" ECM again? It slows it down, sort of.

I use tag like your meant to and mark targets from their side or flank for my team most heavy mechs don't see the tag and I can sit there all day.

System is needs a lot of work now but just pointing out a scout can counter heavys that think they are unlockable.

Edited by Wynn80, 15 January 2013 - 11:31 PM.

[Asapiophobe Vortex]

Giving ECM only to mechs that do not have missile hardpoints themselves sounds like a decent idea to me.

One of the big errors PGI made with ECM is that they implemented it way to early as far as the game developement goes. Implementing ECM into a game, where a lot of people had to use streaks as the main means of defense against light mechs, because net code just PLAIN SUX, was really stupid. I was never a big fan of light mechs getting the ECM in the first place.

Oh and don't give me target leading ********, because i've been playing FPS games with high ping starting 15+ years ago with duke nukem 3d, and quake 1. Target leading a raven with 150-200 ping in this game will always have a crappy outcome.

PGI should have first fixed the netcode, THEN they should start implementing ECM. That would be the first right step. Now I don't know if it would be enough, I'll let others decide on that, because I honestly don't care enough to think about it too much.

[MustrumRidcully]

Yoseful Mallad, on 15 January 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

there are other light mechs that are good mechs. Other Ravens or even the Jenners. The Jenner is still the best ton for ton hard hitting light we have... just no one uses it hardly anymore because of ECM on other lights. If they would have went ahead and given the Jenner ECM like they were going to at first... we probably would have been having this same problem with them. The issue isnt the Raven with ECM. The Raven has always been one of those lights to mount it. The issue is that it can now do everything that people have issues with in this game lol. The biggest issue with ECM right now is that it allows the user to effectively and almost completely stop anyone from using any form of missile on it but still allows the user to fling those Streaks at anything the user wants.

Actually, I believe that a Jenner with ECM would simply have replaced the Raven.

Though maybe not. One of the Jenner variants is basically the same as another, but with one missile hard point less. I could totally see this being an excellent ECM platform. You can take the Jenner with superior speed potential and good placed (and numbered) energy hard points, or you take the Streak ECM Raven.

What's weird to me is that the Spider that seems to have almost the best slots (unless MGs are actually buffed significantly) is also the one that has ECM. It would have made more sense to put it on the 2 Energy Weapon CT Spider...

[Adrienne Vorton]

i´d still say the problem is plain and simple the overusage of ECM ravens (though i barely met a few ECM mechs in over a dozen matches yesterday, and our 8 man matches on monday were over all very balanced out...maybe we got lucky, but that´s what i experienced)

but what i think, and stated a few times already, is that we need role specific pilot skills asap... so that ECM´s would only be allowed to scout/ ewf skilled pilots, while they would lack some benefits from attack/ defense/ support skills...

next big thing is gonna be the netcode which is on it´s way but challenges the patience of the playerbase^^

btw...why is everybody hating on the raven? the commando is faster and has even more streaks, doesn´t it? when the game runs smooth for me, i don´t see any difference in hitting a raven or a commando...hell i killed raven 3L´s with a trial cent yesterday (that was when the game wasn´t lagging like hell from time to time )

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 15 January 2013 - 11:37 PM.

[Orgasmo]

Wynn80, on 15 January 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

People know a scout with a tag can counter ECM?

One of the things I like doing on my Raven is breaking away from my team and mark targets for them. Hell I be happier if I could have a bigger support role, right now everyone thinks that all the Raven pilots are brawlers.

The only true counter to ECM is another ECM. TAG is rendered useless when you enter into the ECM bubble. At best, TAG is a soft counter that requires you to actively track the target with your cursor while the ECM is mount-and-forget. In addition, it is very difficult to keep the TAG laser on target at longer ranges, especially against fast moving lights. You lose track 2 seconds after your crosshair is off target.

P.S. I am cool with bending TT rules to fit actual gameplay, but PGI invented functions that ECM never had in TT. ECM in TT prevented targets being identifed (i.e. target info), but did not prevent them from being locked. It interfered with Artemis making them lose their tight grouping bonus, but does not prevent LRM locks. ECM certainly did not interfere with TAG and targeting computers in TT.

Edited by Orgasmo, 15 January 2013 - 11:38 PM.