224 replies to this topic

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

why dont they just make it how its supposed to be like I noted in my last post lol

[Wynn80]

Oh I meant to mark the targets from outside of the bubble and its a huge boon to your team if you can get the angles on them.


I've always use ECM ravens and the guy that wants to play support and hell use the 3L as soon as it went in because I knew it was going to be the support one.

With it being FotM and the outcry on the boards I have a feeling my beloved mech is going to get nerf in to the ground, most true old school raven pilots would be fine with less damage to be best at ECM warfare mech like it should be.

A really cool fix would be allow a ecm pilot to give up damage to make it stronger.

Edited by Wynn80, 15 January 2013 - 11:43 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Wynn80, on 15 January 2013 - 11:40 PM, said:

most true old school raven pilots would be fine with less damage to be best at ECM warfare mech like it should be.

yes, the ecm should be like its supposed to be like I said earlier. Guardian doesnt affect missiles, angel does

[Elkarlo]

The Quote out of Maximum Tech is incomplete.

Essential it says: it makes a GECM Mech harder to Spott down to short Spotting Range.

Standard Mech Sensor short Range: 240 Meters
BaP short Range: 360 Meters.

So a ECM equipt Mech is LOCKABLE in the SHORT range, so it wouldn't prevent Streak Missle Locks !

This was NOT the Intention of the Developers when they implemented the ECM.
The wanted the ECM be a counter to Streaks.

So yes the ECM works as Intented, but breaks the GAME.
Because it doesn't follow the Rules

Please implement the Locking rules correctly, or at LEAST Apply the BaP Range increase on ECM guarded Mechs.
It is LORE that a BaP can sniff out ECM, and was part of lot of Books and stories !!!

Please let us lock the Ravens at 375 Meters (200 + Bap Bonus + 25% lockin Module Bonus) so that we can thwart them with LRM !!!

Edited by Elkarlo, 15 January 2013 - 11:49 PM.

[Kousagi]

Orgasmo, on 15 January 2013 - 11:37 PM, said:

The only true counter to ECM is another ECM. TAG is rendered useless when you enter into the ECM bubble. At best, TAG is a soft counter that requires you to actively track the target with your cursor while the ECM is mount-and-forget. In addition, it is very difficult to keep the TAG laser on target at longer ranges, especially against fast moving lights. You lose track 2 seconds after your crosshair is off target.

P.S. I am cool with bending TT rules to fit actual gameplay, but PGI invented functions that ECM never had in TT. ECM in TT prevented targets being identifed (i.e. target info), but did not prevent them from being locked. It interfered with Artemis making them lose their tight grouping bonus, but does not prevent LRM locks. ECM certainly did not interfere with TAG and targeting computers in TT.

Heres a few things for ya, If your radar can not Identify something as a target, then it can't be sure if it is a target, as a major thing in the canon of BT was radar ghost and false positives on radar. There are things other then enemys that can show up on radar. So how would your system know that the unidentifiable blip on your radar is a mech or a rock? Though since MWO does not have false positives or radar ghosts, they can't very well add unidentifiable objects with out that kinda system in place.

Thing is, TT LRM's do not lock on. TT LRM's do not act like LRM's in MWO, they do not track to a target, they track to a point, much like GPS artillery rounds. Cause how would LRM's be able to fire indirectly with a spotter without sharing targeting data... Which means the spotter has to call in the target over the radio, just like artillery.

The reason TAG is disrupted in MWO is partly a coding thing, but Say your mech Paints a target in 180m, your mech now sees it as a target, but you are in jamming range, so now you can't send that data out. Though any mech with LOS should be able to see the painted target, anything out of sight should not be able to see it, but thats most likely a coding problem. Blame the system in place for it. Though Tag itself is not getting disrupted currently, its the target data sharing that is.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Elkarlo, on 15 January 2013 - 11:49 PM, said:

The Quote out of Maximum Tech is incomplete.

Essential it says: it makes a GECM Mech harder to Spott down to short Spotting Range.

Standard Mech Sensor short Range: 240 Meters
BaP short Range: 360 Meters.

So a ECM equipt Mech is LOCKABLE in the SHORT range, so it wouldn't prevent Streak Missle Locks !

This was NOT the Intention of the Developers when they implemented the ECM.
The wanted the ECM be a counter to Streaks.

So yes the ECM works as Intented, but breaks the GAME.
Because it doesn't follow the Rules

Please implement the Locking rules correctly, or at LEAST Apply the BaP Range increase on ECM guarded Mechs.
It is LORE that a BaP can sniff out ECM, and was part of lot of Books and stories !!!

Please let us lock the Ravens at 375 Meters (200 + Bap Bonus + 25% lockin Module Bonus) so that we can thwart them with LRM !!!

I noted it earlier... GECM doesnt affect streaks
Angel does
and its not even invented for two years

also: In before "there are no MWO books" or "this isnt TT"
cause you know its coming

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 15 January 2013 - 11:53 PM.

[Elkarlo]

Yes i knew it was comming, but the people refer to the incomplete Sarna net Article about ECM.

And i hate it when people make incomplete Quotes.

Some People just don't know that the viewranges of Sensors are only noted in the Double Blind rules,
which had been uncommon in use. And when we just had a Quote from then, i wanted to state out that especially it was said in them that Lockin WORKS on short range.


I am sad that PGI didn't implement the BaP correctly as it would be a great counter for the ECM for long range Mechs and it would be a simple solution out of the Light Mech brawl ( putt the LRM Mechs with BaP at the end of a Mech Chain and so each other can support against Light ECM brawlers...)
And you would force long range engangements.

Atm the best Method for fighting ECM in Colony is: Get your LRM boat on the Water, where it can Tag enemies and putt them Down, before they are reached by ECM lights...

Colony is the only Map where it works, because there is enough openspace for tagging.
Even Caucastic has to much cover for that, thanks to the enourmus Logging times Tagged Mechs have...

Personally i think the Developers should make a neutral account and go out Pugging for 4 hours...

Then they would imidiatly Kill ECM from the Game.

Edited by Elkarlo, 16 January 2013 - 12:02 AM.

[Orgasmo]

Kousagi, on 15 January 2013 - 11:50 PM, said:

Heres a few things for ya, If your radar can not Identify something as a target, then it can't be sure if it is a target, as a major thing in the canon of BT was radar ghost and false positives on radar. There are things other then enemys that can show up on radar. So how would your system know that the unidentifiable blip on your radar is a mech or a rock? Though since MWO does not have false positives or radar ghosts, they can't very well add unidentifiable objects with out that kinda system in place

Thing is, TT LRM's do not lock on. TT LRM's do not act like LRM's in MWO, they do not track to a target, they track to a point, much like GPS artillery rounds. Cause how would LRM's be able to fire indirectly with a spotter without sharing targeting data... Which means the spotter has to call in the target over the radio, just like artillery.

Right, so in the game it should at least provide you with the target, not block it completely. You don't know what mech you are firing your LRMs at and you don't know how badly damaged he is. The lore is very clear on that:

Enemy long-range sensors can find vehicles and 'Mechs within the curtain, but the Guardian obscures the reading and prevents identification.
(Technical Readout: 3050 Revised, pg 196)

Quote

The reason TAG is disrupted in MWO is partly a coding thing, but Say your mech Paints a target in 180m, your mech now sees it as a target, but you are in jamming range, so now you can't send that data out. Though any mech with LOS should be able to see the painted target, anything out of sight should not be able to see it, but thats most likely a coding problem. Blame the system in place for it. Though Tag itself is not getting disrupted currently, its the target data sharing that is.

It should NOT counter a laser device. It even prevents your own TAG from working, which is complete garbage considering the devs said TAG is the primary counter to ECM. Again, they went completely against TT lore:

"The ECM does not affect other scanning or targeting devices such as TAG and targeting computers"
(Total Warfare, pg 134)

[Wynn80]

With the amount of threads/post my poor Raven going to get nerf in to the ground. I've been waiting since the game was announced for my ecm raven

[Asapiophobe Vortex]

Adrienne Vorton, on 15 January 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

btw...why is everybody hating on the raven? the commando is faster and has even more streaks, doesn´t it? when the game runs smooth for me, i don´t see any difference in hitting a raven or a commando...hell i killed raven 3L´s with a trial cent yesterday (that was when the game wasn´t lagging like hell from time to time )

Well that's a good point, I do hate the commando even more than raven I guess. Maybe. I don't know. I really really hate both, and every time one of them starts circling me, I just start feeling this urge to ragequit the game.

As I already stated, Light mechs+ECM was the idea I never liked. Atleast not with this broken netcode.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Elkarlo, on 15 January 2013 - 11:55 PM, said:

Yes i knew it was comming, but the people refer to the incomplete Sarna net Article about ECM.

And i hate it when people make incomplete Quotes.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Guardian_ECM

Quote

Guardian ECM Suite



(Redirected from Guardian ECM) This article is about the ECM Suite. For other uses, see Guardian (disambiguation).


Contents
[hide]

• 1 Description
  
• 2 Manufactuing
  
• 3 Rules
  
  • 3.1 Game Rules
• 4 References
  
• 5 Bibliography

[edit] Description


The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony^[1]. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.^[2] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The Capellan Confederation expanded the utility of the Guardian even more with the introduction of Stealth Armor.^[3]
The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes.^[2]
The Clans used the Guardian as the basis for their own ECM Suite, which is lighter and more compact than the Inner Sphere model but functions identically. The Draconis Combine used the Guardian as the basis for their experimental Angel ECM Suite.^[4]
[edit] Manufactuing

Guardian ECM Suite is manufactured on the following planets: Brand Planet Company Apple Churchill Golden Shield Capella Ceres Metals Industries CherrySeed Cloak Arc-Royal Winston-CherrySeed Consolidated Garret-Guardian Interface 2B Mendham Mendham Electronics Garret-Guardian Interface 2B Dalton Garret SatComm New Samarkand Nimbus New Samarkand New Samarkand Metals Norse Guardian ECM Loxley Norse-Storm Technologies Incorporated
[edit] Rules


[edit] Game Rules

The Inner Sphere Guardian ECM weighs 1.5 tons and takes up 2 critical spaces. It has an operational range of six hexes.^[5][6] The Guardian ECM Suite has a defensive Battle Value of 61.^[7]
The Clan ECM Suite system weighs 1 ton and occupies a single critical space. In every other way it's identical to the Inner Sphere version.^[8][9]
[edit] References

• ↑ TechManual, p. 213
  
• ↑ ^{2.0 2.1} Technical Readout: 3050, p. 197
  
• ↑ TechManual, p. 213
  
• ↑ Tactical Operations, p. 279
  
• ↑ Technical Readout: 3050, p. 220
  
• ↑ TechManual, p. 342
  
• ↑ TechManual, p. 317
  
• ↑ TechManual, p. 342
  
• ↑ TechManual, p. 317

[edit] Bibliography

• TechManual
  
• Technical Readout: 2750
  
• Technical Readout: 3050

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Angel_ECM

Quote

Angel ECM Suite



(Redirected from Angel ECM)

Contents
[hide]

• 1 Description
  
• 2 Rules
  
  • 2.1 Game Rules
• 3 References
  
• 4 Bibliography

[edit] Description


The Angel ECM Suite is an experimental version of the Guardian ECM Suite operating on a broader spectrum and greatly advances ECM technology on the battlefield. Development of the Angel began in the Draconis Combine shortly after the Battle of Luthien, but despite assistance from ComStar, cost overruns and internal problems within both powers delayed its widespread deployment. Clan Goliath Scorpion, having learned of the Angel's development, started copying the technology to create their own version.^[1]
[edit] Rules


[edit] Game Rules

The Angel ECM Suite represents a great advance in ECM technology from the standard Guardian model. Within its 6 hex radius of effect, the Angel suite completely blocks the following systems on enemy units: Artemis IV, Artemis V, Beagle Active Probes, Bloodhound Active Probes and their Clan equivalents, C3 Master Computers and C3 Slaves, Streak Missile Launchers and Narc missile beacons. Streak missiles may be fired at units affected by the device, but they function as standard missiles.
When using ECCM rules, the Angel ECM Suite counts as two ECM/ECCM units (depending on how it is set) for the purposes of determining the ratio of ECM to ECCM in a given area.
[edit] References

• Maximum Tech, pp. 77-78

• ↑ Tactical Operations, p. 279

[edit] Bibliography

• Maximum Tech
  
• Tactical Handbook
  
• Tactical Operations

There you go; complete quotes
My point is still there. They did it wrong

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 16 January 2013 - 12:08 AM.

[Kousagi]

Orgasmo, on 16 January 2013 - 12:01 AM, said:

Right, so in the game it should at least provide you with the target, not block it completely. You don't know what mech you are firing your LRMs at and you don't know how badly damaged he is. The lore is very clear on that:

Enemy long-range sensors can find vehicles and 'Mechs within the curtain, but the Guardian obscures the reading and prevents identification.
(Technical Readout: 3050 Revised, pg 196)


It should NOT counter a laser device. It even prevents your own TAG from working, which is complete garbage considering the devs said TAG is the primary counter to ECM. Again, they went completely against TT lore:

"The ECM does not affect other scanning or targeting devices such as TAG and targeting computers"
(Total Warfare, pg 134)

Do you even read? If your radar has ZERO clue what the blip on it is, then why would it want to treat it as a enemy mech? For all your radar knows its a giant rock. Its much like in the cold war, where a bird was mistake as a nuclear missile and almost ended the world. So in MWO, since we don't have radar anomalies they just took it all out. Perfectly fine with me, since ECM really does not do too much.

The TAG itself is NOT being disrupted by ECM. Your Target sharing is whats being disrupted. Since when you Tag a target, only your mech sees it as a target, so then you must target it to share that data with everyone else. This is how the code works....

[EmCeeMendez]

Play the game with a CDA-3M or SDR-5D for a few rounds, and you'll see ECM is not the problem. Don't get me wrong, its strong and is pound for pound a must have, but it is not the problem. The Mechs we cry about are the ones with Streaks. We cried about Streakapults, now we're crying about the Raven-3L. They both use Streaks to deadly effect.

Fix SSRM's, and ECM will be a much easier problem to handle. I don't have an answer, my gut is to just remove a guarantee hit weapon from an FPS, but I'm sure we can find a happy medium.

Edited by EmCeeMendez, 16 January 2013 - 12:11 AM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

EmCeeMendez, on 16 January 2013 - 12:11 AM, said:

I don't have an answer, my gut is to just remove a guarantee hit weapon from an FPS, but I'm sure we can find a happy medium.

wait for this:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Streak_SRM-6
funny thing about this, its bibliography says "Technical Readout: 3050" Id assume theyre talking the Clan variant, yes? Ah, I see 3058 availability to the IS

or better yet:
http://www.sarna.net...i/Streak_LRM-20

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 16 January 2013 - 12:16 AM.

[Wynn80]

Just don't allow SSRM on ECM mechs, I can't even read the forums with all the remove ecm, make it cost heat, nerf ravens ect post every hour. It's not a great fix but it work as a temp fix.

Also don't think most people are factoring meta game if netcode issue was clear up, I'm sure we see a lot more scout hunters fielded.

Edited by Wynn80, 16 January 2013 - 12:17 AM.

[Orgasmo]

Kousagi, on 16 January 2013 - 12:09 AM, said:

Do you even read? If your radar has ZERO clue what the blip on it is, then why would it want to treat it as a enemy mech? For all your radar knows its a giant rock. Its much like in the cold war, where a bird was mistake as a nuclear missile and almost ended the world. So in MWO, since we don't have radar anomalies they just took it all out. Perfectly fine with me, since ECM really does not do too much.

Your sensor knows a target is there because it detects a mech or vehicle signature. It just cannot identify the mech signature due to interference. You are attempting to make your own explanations, contradictory to TT.

"Enemy long-range sensors can find vehicles and 'Mechs within the curtain."
(Technical Readout: 3050 Revised, pg 196)

"Though ECM systems can prevent a sensor probe from identifying a unit, they produce powerful distinctive electronic signatures."
(Maximum Tech, pg 54)

What does powerful and distinctive signature mean to you? Do you have problems reading?

Quote

The TAG itself is NOT being disrupted by ECM. Your Target sharing is whats being disrupted. Since when you Tag a target, only your mech sees it as a target, so then you must target it to share that data with everyone else. This is how the code works....

If an ECM is within 180 of you, your own TAG does not function even for your own targets. It's not just the sharing that is disrupted. It is interefering with your own targeting and it is disrupting the operation of TAG, contrary to TT lore. Spin it however you like, but ECM is utterly broken in its implementation.

"The ECM does not affect other scanning or targeting devices such as TAG and targeting computers"
(Total Warfare, pg 134)

Edited by Orgasmo, 16 January 2013 - 12:22 AM.

[Brilig]

If the new patch post is for real. Then hit detection will be fixed sometime in the next couple of months. If they add collision back in the same time frame I think ECM will be much less of an issue.

[EmCeeMendez]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 16 January 2013 - 12:13 AM, said:

wait for this:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Streak_SRM-6
funny thing about this, its bibliography says "Technical Readout: 3050" Id assume theyre talking the Clan variant, yes? Ah, I see 3058 availability to the IS

or better yet:
http://www.sarna.net...i/Streak_LRM-20

I've always been worried about SSRM-6's with the current 100% hit chance mechanic, but SLRM-20's just made me wet myself. Great find, but it means the 100% chance to hit is silliness. Come on, one of those = 2 AC/20's? With just a LOS lock on? I cry for light mech pilots everywhere.

[Kousagi]

Orgasmo, on 16 January 2013 - 12:17 AM, said:

Your sensor knows a target is there because it detects a mech or vehiclesignature. It just cannot identify the mech signature due to interference. You are attempting to make your own explanations, contradictory to TT.


If an ECM is within 180 of you, your own TAG does not function even for your own missiles. It's not just the sharing that is disrupted. It is interefering with your own targeting and it is disrupting the operation of TAG, contrary to TT lore. Spin it however you like, but ECM is utterly broken in its implementation.

Dude, Do you even read canon or know the real world use of radar? Just cause its not a Printed rule in the book does mean its not canon. Use that grey matter in your skull. Its not contradictory at all.

Tag Does function for your own missiles. My LRM boat has it, and uses it all the time. It is ONLY the sharing of the data that is disrupted in MWO when in concern to use of Tag in 180m's. Since in MWO, If you tag a target Only you can see that tagged mech in the ECM field, but if your target sharing is also being jammed then its useless since you can't tell anyone else the target is there. You can even test this out, get 1 ECM to jam you, and tag a 2nd ECM 500m away, bet ya no one on your team can see it.

Theres no Spin to it at all, you argue that ECM is Vastly different then TT/canon, when in fact is not at all. It functions much like it should, its just you don't know TT/canon.

Edited by Kousagi, 16 January 2013 - 12:31 AM.

[Wynn80]

Tag wiill send data to your team if your out of there ecm bubble just to clear it up for people, I did it to a spider tonight felt so bad for him he got slam with so many long range missiles.