224 replies to this topic

[Chief 117]

Kassatsu, on 15 January 2013 - 07:21 PM, said:

They didn't think. They just added it because they didn't like being killed by streak cats.

Yes, and it is pretty sad when they basically confirmed it as the main reason.

[IceCase88]

Orgasmo, on 15 January 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

Not sure which TT game you were playing, but it sure as hell ain't BattleTech.

"Enemy long-range sensors can find vehicles and 'Mechs within the curtain, but the Guardian obscures the reading and prevents identification."
(Technical Readout: 3050 Revised, pg 196)

"The ECM does not affect other scanning or targeting devices such as TAG and targeting computers"
(Total Warfare, pg 134)

"ECM blocks the effects of Artemis IV fire control systems. Artemis-equipped launchers may be fired as normal missiles through the ECM, but they lose the Cluster Hits Table Bonus"
(Total Warfare, pg 134)

"Active probes cannot penetrate the ECM's area of effect. The probing unit would notice it is being jammed, however"
(Total Warfare, pg 134)

"Though ECM systems can prevent a sensor probe from identifying a unit, they produce powerful distinctive electronic signatures."
(Maximum Tech, pg 54)

What ECM unit is Total Warfare refering to? Guardian? Angel? Or the Liao unit that weighed 7 tons? I think you have really convinced yourself that ECM is broken when it is not. Reference my posting from Battletech wiki. No matter how many times you say it is broken it does not change the fact that it is not broken. It works as it should. However... by all means do not let the facts get in the way of your impassioned argument.

Edited by IceCase88, 16 January 2013 - 01:18 AM.

[Elkarlo]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 16 January 2013 - 12:07 AM, said:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Guardian_ECM






http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Angel_ECM




There you go; complete quotes
My point is still there. They did it wrong

And i didn't mean you but the Guardian ECM Entry of Sarna net has some Suggestive Entry's especially about the
BaP jamming.

But the BaP jamming is only meant that some abilities of the BaP is jammed and not the Range Increase.
And that i mean with Incomplete Quotes to the TT rules.

BaP Range Increase apply ALSO for GECM guarded Mechs !

This implemented would be a viable Counteritem for ECM, and would allow LRM bombardment.
Some very smart person only read the Sarna entry and not the Double blind rule Entry in Maximum Tech.
And personally i prefer quoting the Ranges stated in Maximum Tech as it makes it obvious that PGI made an Error by implementing the Rules of the BaP.

And for everyone again: BaP SHOULD increase the Base Detection range of a ECM covered unit from 200 to 300 Meters.

This is LORE this is how BaP should work in Double Blind Games. Together with the Lock range increase it would be a GOOD COUNTER for ECM.

[Solis Obscuri]

I saw an ECM 2D with the 3L tonight.

And apparently SSRMs are bringing the glowing Catapult screen blackout bug back, because I only saw them very briefly before I was plunged into darkness and streaked to death without being able to land a shot in return.

When is this supposed to start being fun?

[Elkarlo]

When you are sitting in the ECM Light..

Dear Developers, get yourself a neutral Account and go out in a Med or Heavy mech the Workshorse class ( and NO CICADA-3M for you !) and play the game for 4 Hours as PUG.

Do it, then come back in the Forum and say that Raven is not overpowered.

[Felix]

Budor, on 15 January 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:

Ever since they patched in ECM this was the main question i asked myself: DAFUQ DID THEY THINK!?

Havent you noticed that they only really take care of stuff THEY care about and say **** it to the community?

Goons knock one of them over and annoy them with collision? Gasp they remove collisions the next patch
They get toasted by a few streak cats? Gasp they introduce unbalanced ECM AND put in the patch notes "looking forward to ruining some streakcats days."

These, for lack of a better way to explain it, are not good devs.

[Kousagi]

So, since I only had a Master Rules, book, I went out and found a maxuim tech one online, and everyone crying that ECM does not effect detection range is on crack, since it flat out says in the rules right there that ECM does effect sensor range. Normal mech sensors can only detect a ECM mech up to 8 hexs away, and thats if they get a good roll. As to detect them at short range with normal sensors, you have to roll a 2 or a 3 with a 2d6. The Begal, you have a tad more wiggle room, as a roll of 2 gets ya med range (12-24 hex ) and 3-4 get you short range (1-12 hex). Which still is hard rolls to get.

So I think PGI making the compromise of 200m 100% detection rate is pretty good.

[Elkarlo]

@ Kousagi:
They made the Detection of a ECM covered Mech slowered, to simulate the harder (+4 for BaP and +5) roll

And 8 Hexes are 240 MEters... this would be... 200 + 25% lockin range.

The thing is THEY DIDN'T iimplement the BaP, if BaP would counter and allow a locking range of 375 Meters for ECM covered Mechs, nobody would cry as there would be a viable Counteritem, allow to focus the ECM mechs and blow them into pieces.

But everybody Supporting ECM cry's In sarna is pointed that BaP is scrambled thanks to ECM !!!..

And thats not true and you even said it yourself.
And according to the Rules you JUST zitated, Streaks WOULD WORK.

Edited by Elkarlo, 16 January 2013 - 01:41 AM.

[Doc Holliday]

All I know is I'm on break until they fix OP streaks and OP ECM.

[Kousagi]

Elkarlo, on 16 January 2013 - 01:37 AM, said:

@ Kousagi:
They made the Detection of a ECM covered Mech slowered, to simulate the harder (+4 for BaP and +5) roll

And 8 Hexes are 240 MEters... this would be... 200 + 25% lockin range.

The thing is THEY DIDN'T iimplement the BaP, if BaP would counter and allow a locking range of 375 Meters for ECM covered Mechs, nobody would cry as there would be a viable Counteritem, allow to focus the ECM mechs and blow them into pieces.

But everybody Supporting ECM cry's In sarna is pointed that BaP is scrambled thanks to ECM !!!..

And thats not true and you even said it yourself.
And according to the Rules you JUST zitated, Streaks WOULD WORK.

Thing is, to even detect a ECM mech is pretty hard, even with a probe. you have a 27% chance to even detect a ECM at all with a probe, if its a angel its 18%. So they give you a 100% chance to detect, with slightly less range, also You guys are bring up TT, I understand why they bent the rules a bit to add angel's streak counter to guardian. So do not attempt to counter with TT saying thats the way it should be. Since I'm just using TT rules to prove people wrong that keep saying ECM is not working much like TT.

Edited by Kousagi, 16 January 2013 - 01:53 AM.

[ICEFANG13]

ECM is OP, nothing in the game is answered with a yes and 100% even close, not even streaks.

If you could put it on all of your mechs? What percent wouldn't? (Last I checked, LRMs and SRMs were still being used pre ECM, each has a role).

What percent of mechs that can carry ECM, haven't in your experience?

Nothing comes close to that, even BAP, which is all bonus, its worth its weight, but not always effective. ECM is always helpful, its the only real counter to ECM, it allows you to get target info while they are still scratching their heads, it denies enemy positions. Its indirect help is far more helpful than a ton and a half of armor, or a medium laser and a small laser, or BAP or TAG. It does a mountain of effects, and there is really only one counter. Who designs something like this?

[AlexWildeagle]

der langsamere, on 16 January 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

Mind you they are only available to clan and not till 3057 lol



also; this isnt TT
There is no canon for MWO
There are no books based on MWO
There is no TT game for MWO

as we are constantly seeing by the devs' choices, Battletech TT =/= MWO

I think you have this confused with another game. This is based off of a TT called BattleTech and the BT/MW universe, every day a evolves a little more away from canon. That being said it does not follow canon as set in stone but it tries somewhat

Edited by AlexWildeagle, 16 January 2013 - 09:29 AM.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

ICEFANG13, on 16 January 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

What percent of mechs that can carry ECM, haven't in your experience?

Wouldn't put a 260 engine on a CN9-D either.

[ICEFANG13]

So none? Because I have seen a fair amount of people put a 260 (or close) in a CN9-D myself. I've seen 2 ECM mechs without ECM. One was a friend who forgot to move it from mech to mech, another was a D-DC who would have not only lived (because I wouldn't have had target info fast enough to kill with my MPL only build), he would have won the game.

[Penance]

I can't see them. The ECM atlases are blocking my view from the rear.

[Josef Nader]

We must not be playing the same game, 'cause I really don't see that many 3Ls running around. Even in 8 mans, I still see Jenners and 'mandos. Sure, most teams have at least 2 ECM-capable mechs on their team, but I'm not seeing these mythical 8-man 3L teams.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

If a variant has a special feature to give you or your team advantage I will use that feature, so will others. What's your point? To answer your question I've seen 3 (or was it 4?) D-DC's without ECM.

[Mawai]

Yoseful Mallad, on 15 January 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

there are other light mechs that are good mechs. Other Ravens or even the Jenners. The Jenner is still the best ton for ton hard hitting light we have... just no one uses it hardly anymore because of ECM on other lights. If they would have went ahead and given the Jenner ECM like they were going to at first... we probably would have been having this same problem with them. The issue isnt the Raven with ECM. The Raven has always been one of those lights to mount it. The issue is that it can now do everything that people have issues with in this game lol. The biggest issue with ECM right now is that it allows the user to effectively and almost completely stop anyone from using any form of missile on it but still allows the user to fling those Streaks at anything the user wants.

I marked the section I don't agree with. The reason I don't play my Jenner is NOT the ECM ... overall ECM is pretty cool if a little overpowered ... the issue is the SSRMs on that fast ECM light mech. In a laser duel ... the Raven and the Jenner would be a good match ... but when the Raven has weapons that will automatically hit and do not require aiming ... that almost always hit the torso ... for 10 points of damage each salvo ... and which ECM prevents the Jenner from using ... then the Raven always wins ... unless the Jenner is extremely lucky or the Raven is already damaged.

If a Jenner with missile hard points had ECM we would have EXACTLY the same problem.

The choices to fix it are

1) to modify ECM, rebalance LRMs and SSRMs, fix netcode and lag compensation ... which is what is really required in the long run but will take a lot of time

or

2) Remove the missile hard points from ECM light mechs and replace with energy or ballistic as desired ... re-evaluate once all the other changes in (1) are completed.

However, in the short term ... no ECM light mech should be allowed to carry SSRM.

P.S. The ECM Atlas is somewhat less of a concern since it is slow, easy to hit and easy to dodge out of the locking window for the ECMs ... so it is a completely different issue from light ECM SSRM mechs.

[ICEFANG13]

IV Amen, on 16 January 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

If a variant has a special feature to give you or your team advantage I will use that feature, so will others. What's your point? To answer your question I've seen 3 (or was it 4?) D-DC's without ECM.

How many people as a percent do you think use BAP now? How about AMS or JJ? So if they let all mechs use it, you wouldn't have a point? Because some mechs used BAP/AMS/JJs pre-ECM, but not all of them. They has bonuses that were effective to their weight. ECM has a huge bonus that isn't close to its weight.

[Joseph Mallan]

I see more than ECM Ravens. But that doesn't mean there isn't a lot of them flying around.